Campaign map development

[Werthead]

Actually I think Caralain Grass has an extremely low level of population. Perrin, Egwene, Elyas and the Tinkers don't seem to encounter anyone whilst they are trudging across it in Eye of the World. Maybe small villages are on the plain further to the north (especially towards Tar Valon and the Black Hills where we know villages are located from Path of Daggers), but even so nothing very large.

I'm guessing people have access to the Big White Book for things like flags and details of armies and that sort of thing? It says pretty bleakly in there that population levels have fallen really low and certain areas including Almoth Plain, Shadow Coast, Caralain Grass, Plains of Maredo and Haddon Mirk have been depopulated to the point where they cannot support nations or even cities (Far Madding being an obvious exception).

N.B. Is Shadar Logoth going to be in the game? Don't quite know how you'd do it with the Rome rules though.

[Andreas]

Andreas,

That looks really great. I really appreciate your hard work. Is it possible to move Falme to the end of Toman Head? In the books it was at the very tip, near the ocean.

Is it possible to do the same with Bandar Eban?

I have a comment about Myrdrraal's question about 'should we have unconquerable regions with no cities'...

All of the land in the Wheel of Time is inhabited. Some places like the Caralain Grass don't have huge cities, like they used to, but they have villages and smaller cities spread throughout. The same goes for Almoth Plain, Haddon Mirk, the Plains of Maredo, and the area east of Tar Valon (between Cairhien and Shienar).

Although they are not as heavily populated as they once were they still have small cities. There's an example of one in the region to the east of Tar Valon in The Great Hunt when Rand gets stuck in the time loop.

What has happened is we haven't had their names mentioned in the series yet, but they are there. One area where we do have a bunch of names is Altara. We see there are cities spread all over the countryside. Let me name the ones we have read of throughout the series: Samaha, Tallan, Fyall, So Eban, So Habor, So Tehar, Malden, Cormaed, Sehar, Jurandor, Coramen, Alkandar, Weesin, Mosra, and Remen. That list doesn't include all the new cities' names we learn of in Knife of Dreams that are in northeastern Altara.

So my point is that even though we don't know the names of some of the cities in the looser populated areas, we know they exist. My preference would be to put cities in each region.

I totally understand your concern about keeping the potential of the less inhabited regions low. Is it a solution to this poroblem to make cities in these areas with the minimum amount of population possible?

cdaulepp

I agree with you, especially the point of altara. there are cities everywhere but since no main character has been there, we do not hear about them. But I know of ways to restrict it, so i say go settlements everywhere...

And I should be able to do that with Falme, yes:)

Werthead: Even if they cannot support a nation, they can support small cities. About the caralian grass, remeber that they had Elyas as guide, and he would probably want to avoid people. And I do not think Shadar Logoth will be in as a city.

[Myrddraal]

In the books we are told the Almoth plain is swarming with dragonsworn, which implies that there is some level of population, whereas Caralain grass has hardly any population at all - a huge borderlander army can march through there completely undetected. The same goes for the Black Hills and Haddon Mirk, and some others. So what we are thinking of doing is including a couple tiny towns (and I mean tiny) in the Almoth plain for Tarabon and the Domani to fight over. What we're thinking of doing is including very small settlements in semi-deserted regions like the Black Hills which cannot develop very much - eg very starting population, limits on the amount of farming and other population boosting buildings, possibly high squalor.

However, Caralain grass, Haddon Mirk and the like are utter wildernesses and so I reckon they'd have no major cities, and in practice can't be conquered - you can put armies there but there's nothing to occupy

[cdaulepp]

I slightly digress with you Myrdrraal. When Mat and Rand first hitch a ride with Bayle Domon in Eye of the World, Domon has been up in Maradon buying stuff. He got on his ship and sailed south along the river Arinelle and then he sailed east and southeast where the River Arinelle meets the River Manetherendrelle (those two rivers meet just east of Baerlon on the book cover).

There would have to be cities along the entire river supporting the river traffic. The riverboats that go up and down those rivers would have to be able to buy food and get supplies to fix their crafts if they broke down or needed repairs.

Looking at the map on the book flaps, Domon's path from Saldaea south to where he joined the Manetherendrelle River isn't actually in the Caralain Grass. It occupies the forested area northwest of the Caralain Grass. But I think my point is there have got to be cities, some of fairly decent size like we see in Altara. I think the only difference is that we haven't had any of the story take place in that part of the world to see how many cities there are and how large.

The cities we see in Altara are in pretty remote locations, yet they are still sizeable cities. Last, but not least, the Tairens who rebelled against Rand and fled to Haddon Mirk would have had to of been able to supply their men with food, etc. If there were no cities in Haddon Mirk, then Darlin would have been able to simply cut off their supply chain with his armies camped outside of Haddon Mirk. But since it was impossible to bring the rebel Tairens out of Haddon Mirk it tells me there are cities there that can and did support half of the Tairens while they were in rebellion against Rand. Those cities had to be large enough to feed their own and all the rebels troops.

I want to say that I am really impressed with all your work. It is great and I'll support you in whatever decision you make.

[cdaulepp]

Give us more screenshots!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

This is awesome!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[RedPanther1]

I think Shadar Logoth should be a wonder. That'd be kool.

Maybe gives units -1 morale, and commanders +1 versus shadowspawn? hm.

[Andreas]

Well, here is a new screen... I updated the previous view of Falme after your remarks:


What do you think?

Also, here you can see one of the religious icons. Cheers!

More screens will come.

[Antagonist]

Looking better all the time.

I like the religious icons too. Has the list of what religions will be used been finalised, or can you tell us that?

Antagonist

[cdaulepp]

Looks great. Take 10 pictures or so and upload them. I want to see the whole continent!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

cdaulepp

[al'Callaendor]

WOW!!! very nice!!!

[Werthead]

Glad to be of help :) Although I still think Lake Somal should be the name of the big big lake near Katar (some evidence in Crossroads of Twilight, Ituralde fought a battle near Somal around the same time he 'reminded' the Lords of Katar they were part of Arad Doman).

Love the idea of Shadar Logoth as a Wonder. That could work really well. You could have the two Choedan Kal statues, the spire in the Black Hills, maybe even the Artur Hawkwing statue in Caralain Grass and the Talidar monument as wonders as well. Tower of Ghenjei? Probably going too far :)

Is Rhuidean going to be in the game as one of the Aiel cities?

[Myrddraal]

Love the idea of Shadar Logoth as a Wonder. That could work really well. You could have the two Choedan Kal statues, the spire in the Black Hills, maybe even the Artur Hawkwing statue in Caralain Grass and the Talidar monument as wonders as well. Tower of Ghenjei? Probably going too far :)

Why would that be going to far, there is a method for having as many wonders as you like...

Is Rhuidean going to be in the game as one of the Aiel cities?

Rhuidean will be a wonder in the Flame of Tar Valon era (possibly with the effect of making your generals better), in the Dragon's Fang era we may make it a city as it does become inhabited.

I think the Golden Bowl or whatever it is in the Waste should also be a wonder...

[moreb_benhk]

Its looking good sofar. I do have one slight question. Is the final version of the map going to have greater variation/detail in the geography than we have seen in the screenshots. Currently it looks a touch bland, and may lead to too many battles fielded on plain old flat plains, or treeless hills or suchlike.

[soibean]

I can't think of the official names of the statues and if werthead mentioned them I apologize, but what about the two statues that only a man can use and some anonymous female can use to channel the power?
those enourmous statues that people didnt know about and the aes sedai thought were used as a device by the Forsaken?

... anyone know what Im talking about?

[Lord Winter]

I can't think of the official names of the statues and if werthead mentioned them I apologize, but what about the two statues that only a man can use and some anonymous female can use to channel the power?
those enourmous statues that people didnt know about and the aes sedai thought were used as a device by the Forsaken?

... anyone know what Im talking about?

I belive u mean the chosen kal

[Myrddraal]

the map you see there is a very basic one. Its not much more than an outline of the world

[cdaulepp]

I know I'm slow so bare with me. You mentioned there were religious icons in the map. Where? I'm not familiar with where to look.

Actually, Soibean and Destroyer of Hope, the statues are sa'angreal, but Rand and Nynaeve use access ter'angreal which allow them to safely channel the huge amount of power that flows through the sa'angreal. They are called "Choedan Kal".

[SMZ]

right beneath each city it has an Aes Sedai symbol to show that they worship the light :)

other faiths are the Shadow and the way of the leaf I believe - there is a limit of three on the number of faiths, hardcoded I believe

[Andreas]

The religions are: Belief in the Light, ji'e'toh, Belief in the Shadow and Way od the Leaf. The last one will not affect unrest though, that is what is hardcoded.

And I will not give you that much:P I will find a new part of the map for you today or tomorrow:)

[IceTorque]

G'day all. I see you already have a working map.
May I ask how big it is ? and is there anything I might be able to do to contribute ? with the map side of things.

[Andreas]

I sent you an Pm which should contain the info you need ATM. That kind of stuff isn't public .....

Anyway, tomorrow will you get those screens I promised, been working with the religons today so I hadn't time to do it.

[boastj]

The way the whitechokes think is kind of a religion, but if you can only add 3 religions never mind.

[Andreas]

They are just an extreme form of the light, really. Like an exterimist. That will be accounted for with traits. Ji'e'toh and the way of the leaf is completely other ways to think.

[Werthead]

Actually, I meant putting the ToG in might be a Wonder too far since it would be difficult to give it a bonus that makes sense (although since the Finns grant wishes and answer questions, then you could have it granting bonuses to pretty much anything, trade, population rate increase etc).

There is one thing I'm interested in seeing: the city map for Tar Valon. Is it possible in the RTW engine to make something approximating the city as seen and mapped in the novels? Or would it just be a generic-looking RTW city sitting on a big island. I can imagine assaulting it would be fun. And is it possible to get the White Tower or equivalent in there? Or is that purely dependent on what the owner of the city builds?

On the campaign map front, will the Ogier/steddings play a role? A stedding could just be a forested region in which channeler units have reduced attacks (if it's possible to limit them by terrain like that).

[Andreas]

Well, we are not at the point of adding wonders just yet, so we will have to see on that in the future.

And it is possible to make Tar Valon look a bit different then other cities, yes. If the white tower will be in it is a question for later. The work of making battlefield buildings specific for one city will not be the most prioritated subject, I am afraid, since IMO it is more important to do the stuff that makes the game playble

[boastj]

Spanish inquisition I suppose

[Andreas]

New screen you will get today... this time, the malkeir borders at summer an winter. Remeber that this is only a beta map.

[Renly]

Very nice.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I always thought Malkier was more towards the right of Shienar.

[Antagonist]

Looks very nice (although the Mountains of Dhoom don't look very imposing or scary) Still, beta map etc. Nice work.

Antagonist

[SMZ]

very nice, I thought Malkier was more to the right also - I remember Lan remarking that Shienar wasn't a true Borderland until Malkier fell - so I assumed Malkier was a buffer between Shienar and the Blight...

and you could possibly call the city the Seven Towers?

I like tho - but I second Antagonist - Dhoom should look doomish, ehh?