New unit types

[The Shogun]

Hi guys check out a new unit type at:
http://www.totalwar.com/community/newunits.htm

Sorry for the delay on news on the latest patch I will bring you all up to date and soon as we have a confimed ship date!

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The Shogun
Bringinng wisdom in an unwise world

[OUT4BLOOD]

mater swordsmen - ' capable of taking whole units on at a time' ???? how is this possible
how can one man stand up 2 60+? ,maybe where he can only take on 3 men at a time maybe , but on the open field???

[Tachikaze]

I don't like the idea of "battlefield ninja" or "master swordsman". I hope the game doesn't continue in this direction. Those units sound like they're for a fantasy role-playing game, not for historical tactical warfare.

Let's see an ashigaru archer or some other realistic unit.

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A murky puddle becomes clear when it is still.

[This message has been edited by Tachikaze (edited 01-08-2001).]

[OUT4BLOOD]

hmmmmmmm , lemme see maybe a master swordsman put into a unit to increase it's combat punch or leadership??? maybe that sound relistic????

and hiding ninja in enemy or ur own units , coz i guy in black on the battle field aint he gonna look a bit obvious??? and become the target of missile fire???

[johnmcd]

I don't know, but I suspect that Hollywood made the black pyjamas the uniform of the ninja, I expect they wore whatever was appropriate to the job.

Do any of the history nuts know this?
Also I heard that samurai and folk looked down on ninja and they were seen as being on a par with peasants as far as nobility and stuff went. Is this true?

As for the Swordsman. I suppose it is reasonable that one brilliant man could hold a bridge for a long time against an army, or a gate for that matter, in the open field though that would be a nonsense. There are quite a few legends of soldiers fighting against huge numbers when the terrain let them fight only few at a time.

[This message has been edited by johnmcd (edited 01-08-2001).]

[Ii Naomasa]

I have to agree with those who are becoming disheartened with these recent updates. The battlefield ninja could be interesting if they get slaughtered when facing troops face to face (primarily making them a sneak around to rear of target group and attack, hoping to kill before another group assists)...but it'll be difficult I think for that using current stats. This master swordsman is again a step in what seems like the wrong direction.

Out4Blood's idea is much more reasonable...a 1 man upgrade to a unit that would bolster the whole group.

But I doubt even the legendary version of Miyamoto Musashi could 'take' a bridge held by 120 spearmen with 240 archers firing at him...

johnmcd-san, the problem with ninja is that there's little written evidence for them directly. A lot of actions (such as Uesugi Kenshin's death) have been attributed to ninja, whether or not the action was natural or an act of something other than the infamous black pajama team (such as disguised samurai, animals, bandits or other rogues). Much of what has become accepted as ninja material is either modifications on extraordinary tales told/written by the populace, or from people like Stephen Hayes, who have garnered their knowledge from supposed scrolls from their ancient ninja ryu. I am in no position to make any claim on the whole validity of the latter, but I do dislike having only one source of information (which, ultimately, most modern works on ninja come from). Much like with Dr.Turnbull being the most popular English-writing authority on Japanese military history, any mistakes or personal opinions become fact when people have nothing that disputes/validates the claims.

With that said, it's been fairly accepted that the 'black pajamas' were just one of many outfits, all suited to specific tasks. In addition to the probably most often used disguise of just being someone else (peasant, retainer, etc), the ninja, if the books and museums are to be believed, were fairly ingenious as espionage engineering, from tools that could collapse to sandals that cut down on the effectiveness of 'nightingale boards' (which were laid down in homes and castles to make obvious sounds when stepped on). If so, one would suspect that all manner of colors were used in their outfits, as well as other camouflage agents such as leaves and branches.

Their effective use on battlefields in the middle of a battle is very suspect, though....

As you point out, tales abound of lone samurai holding a position against hordes of enemies. In fact, it's classic to the whole warrior tradition. But, as you well point out, it's usually in situations where terrain is definitely in the lone warrior's favor and rarely does he have to face archers or gunman while defending said spot.

At the Battle of Uji, which was one of the early skirmishes of the Genpei war, there is an account of two monks who stood their ground on a bridge to let others retreat. My apologies, but the first one's name I can't remember (and any references are at home) was reported to duck and jump under and over the Taira arrows, while slicing those that came at him straight on with his naginata. Definitely exaggerated, but even here he's only concerned with arrows, not a wall of spears in addition to them. When another sohei, Jomyo, took his place and the Taira tried to cross, he fought them for a long time, first with his naginata and working his way down to his tanto as each weapon broke from repeated use. Here we see hand to hand, but no word of arrows coming his way.

A thin bridge without archers to deal with could possible be defended by one man, as a unit of 120 could be eliminated by a skilled team of 40 if ambushed in the woods. But the problem arises when the number crunching that provides these abilities starts to apply to the open field (as johnmcd points out).

At some point, one has to decide to stay historically accurate as best as one can while maintaining gameplay (which is what Shogun itself seemed to be striving for) or allowing legendary units to make the game more 'fun' and 'exciting'(in some people's eyes). The latter might give you a battle more like legends would have it (and the further you go back in Japanese military history, the more you begin to rely on less than 100% accurate tales), but for those looking for an historical encounter, disappoint will probably come faster than panic to an mistreated ashigaru unit.

[This message has been edited by Ii Naomasa (edited 01-08-2001).]

[Nelson]

Amen, Tachikaze.

[Obake]

I just checked out the info on the "Master Swordsman" over at .com.

I'm going to reserve judgement until we know more about just how powerful this particular unit is and how it will be used.

Tachi, regardless of how it sounds, both the Ninja and the master swordsman (aka Kensai) did exist on the Sengoku battlefield. There are many accounts of special assault squads that were used to penetrate behind enemy battle lines to wreak havoc and assassinate Taisho. My guess is that this is what the Ninja unit is based on. Were these squads actually Ninja? I don't know, and there is some debate in martial circles about that issue. As far as the Kensai unit goes, They were even more rare (I am only aware of 2 during the entire Sengoku period) but did exist.

If we are going to lean towards realism then don't even consider Ashi archers (no such thing). In fact, in terms of realism, we should really remove Warrior monks from the mix as they were practically non-existant on the Sengoku battlefield other than during Oda's Ikkyo Ikki campaign and for a short period of time when the Ikkyo Ikki ruled Kaga. Bear in mind also that the Ikkyo Ikki were primarily peasant armies and Monks were a small portion of the forces they fielded.

As long as we're at it, let's dump the Yari Samurai unit and create a Katana Samurai unit as that was the weapon that defined the Samurai, not the Yari. Don't forget to take out the Samurai Archer and Cavalry Archer units as the bow was no longer a significant factor on the battlefield by the Sengoku period.

I don't mean to trash, so please don't take it that way. My intent is only to point out that the developers have done a good job with their unit selection and balance up to now and that we should give them the benefit of the doubt until they prove otherwise with these new units. I know that these new units could easily be abused both online and in the campaign, but let the developers show us more before we decide.

Getting back to this master swordsman, I could see no more that one ever being available during the course of an SP campaign, and certainly not something that could be "purchased". For online, if they do include this unit, I can't imagine how it would adhere to the normal honor level system that we use for choosing units. Perhaps for online there will be a maximum of 1 unit per army with a set cost (something like 2000 koku should be sufficient). I seriously doubt that many online generals would invest that amount of capital into a single man unit regardless of how good it is.

Another thing to remember is that although the site says that he is capable of taking on a whole unit, nothing is mentioned about it's vulnerability to ranged fire. I don't care how good a unit is, it's eventually going to fall to ranged fire. And don't forget that this particular unit in all likelihood will have no impact when it comes to morale checks related to flanking.

Again, we don't have enough information on these units yet to do anything other than speculate.

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FearObake
I am the ghost of your fears.
Got a compliment or concern about a Fearful Ways member? Let us know about it HERE

[This message has been edited by Obake (edited 01-08-2001).]

[Magyar Khan]

i feel something in the air that the developers are using the add on to test new things like sole units/soldiers to the game, maybe some games will be made where just warbands of units lets say 10-50 are fighting in a fantasy setting.

or it is just some small outer hystorical add to attract younger players who are used to the arcade style and like to have one superman on the field. those who play tabletop warhammer will kjnow what i am talking about.

[The Black Ship]

Technically speaking this thread is in the wrong forum...but since Richie started it here I'll add my two cents worth

Battlefield ninja are acceptable....no more leaving your Taisho waaayyy back so he's safe! I still think it will be a unit that doesn't show the unit stats when you point your mouse at them: you must visually spot them if you plan to avoid them. Sort of a stealth bomber of Shogun units.

Master swordsman seem like great defensive units aimed at situations where flanking isn't easily accomplished! Think of Leonidas' Spartans at Thermopylae. I hope they left a flanking penalty in place for those times they are surrounded on open ground Are we going to see 4-5 swordsmen sweeping the plains of Totomi killing everything in sight...no way. Could we see one lone swordsman defending a bridge province while backed up by archers or guns....you bet!



[This message has been edited by The Black Ship (edited 01-08-2001).]

[The Daimyo]

I like the new units, and I hope to see more like them soon. I'm enough of a history buff to know that there are a lot of things that they can add into this game that will liven it up both in campaigns and online.
The battlefield ninjas, master swordsmen, and etc. are all things that will keep this game fresh and bring battles out of being the SOS that they become after 100's of matches. Wise players should realize that the game's creators are actually going pretty far out of their way to balance the units and bring in new stuff that IS actually historically sound.
Some things may seem a bit off at the moment, but I am sure that when the expansion comes out and we all get to see what this is all about we will be pleased. People are too quick to pass judgement on this matter.
I saw some more screens in PCGamer magazine and was elated to find new features on the screens that we've been asking for since the demo.
The only thing that I am puzzling over is the CAMPAIGNS. There was a list of things that we all wanted to see added and from what we've been told MOST of those things were not addressed or mentioned. Maybe many of them will be included, but we've not heard a thing about it beyond "new buildings" and "multiplayer campaigns".
If The Shogun could perhaps let us know about any other things that will actually affect the strategic gameplay that would be great and help take the focus off of these units - which are IMHO great additions to the field of play.

Hmm...



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The Daimyo
Miaowara "Kakizaki" Tomokato
@ http://www.planettotalwar.com

[The Daimyo]

BTW, did anyone save all of those really long and extensive threads (about the new features and stuff we all wanted) that we all contributed to here? I can remember most of my material, but there was a LOT of other good material that I can't because there was just SO much of it.

Anyone? Anyone got it?





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The Daimyo
Miaowara "Kakizaki" Tomokato
@ http://www.planettotalwar.com

[Ronin]

Johnmcd: as far as i know there is no historical reference to the ninja black uniform that´s just a result of folktale and movies mostly ninja would try to blend into their suroundings.So it would be alot better if the battlefield ninja was disquised as an enemy soldier for example

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"yama yama tani tani"- Oda Nobunaga.
on every montain and in every valley!

[ShadowKill]

Just to put in for a one guy thing in alot of wars there has been an outsatnding person who with a lil bit of luck killed more then his share of men "in ww2 1 man the last in his company head his position for 24 hrs and by the end of the night there were just a lil under 250 men dead around him" this was not fantacy nor is it over exagerated. so Even thou i could not see a person all by himself kill off 250 men it happened then so what is to say it could not happen in this time.

2nd it was stated holding a castle gate not in open terrian no reson to go off making assuptions on that. (give it a chance)

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Fear not the sword to your front, but the blade at your back.

Clan Shades
Shades

[The Scourge]

Well this Master Swordsman reminds me of a thread i started a while back.
The thread was about an honour 15 Wm i once came across.(Probably a one off bug)
Anyway ,i used a whole units worth of arrows on him before sending the hand to handers in.And those arrows didn't do a thing.
So if this Master Swordsman is just a very high honour lone unit,then ive a feeling that a few of us are not going to like it very much.
Oh well ,lets wait and see.
But im getting worried.

[Ii Naomasa]

There is a slight difference between night fighting (in a dug in position, I presume) with a rifle and hand-to-hand in the middle of a battlefield. Funneling people down to one or two at a time makes things easier (as long as no one has a clear ranged shot on you), so I can see bridges and castle gates (which are already ridiculously easy to defend...I actually had one warrior monk hold off a castle mostly by himself for the better part of half a battle (was amused to see just one monk animating, beating back about fifty-something YS before falling to them and the archers behind them)). I just hope that he doesn't survive well to arrowfire or anything more than attacks from his forward 180 degree arc (at most).

[solypsist]

It was stated in the original STW that Stephen Turnbull was the creative/historical consultant; I wonder if they left him off this project.

[Dark Phoenix]

Soly Dr Turnbull was there in September when they posted his interview on the offical site. I am sure that they would of asked him some questions.

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DoragonPhoenix of the Clan Doragon

[Tachikaze]

I don't think I've ever lodged a complaint about Shogun: TW before this thread.

However, I would like to see this game stick to units of tactical battlefield warfare. The presence of a "hero" in a unit to influence its morale I can perhaps live with, but having a tireless Minamoto Yoshitsune running around chopping up No-Dachi units is video game fantasy or heroic legend.

I was hoping the game would remain mature. If these units are introduced, I hope there's a checkbox in the Options Menu to omit them.

It sounds like there is plenty of interesting stuff in the add-on. Mongols and Korean Auxiliaries sound great. We don't need ninjas silently leaping about the battlefield like anime characters, throwing shuriken and smoke bombs.

But I realize I don't have all the info yet. I'll wait and see. The master swordsman may work out, but I shuddered upon reading the "N" word. cringe

Obake,
I dispute the unimportance of archers in your post. Samurai pincushions were still prominant in sengoku-era artwork. Castles were built after 1600 with separate loopholes for teppo and bows.

And if there were few or no ashi archers, Turnbull is mistaken in his books.

I do respect the efforts of the developers in their balancing and playtesting. I just think they may be trying to please a certain buying public that I don't belong to.

[This message has been edited by Tachikaze (edited 01-09-2001).]

[Nelson]

Thank you once again Tachikaze for saving me some typing. You're right about ashigaru archers. THEY should be the new unit. And your last sentence hit the nail on the head.

It's all about marketing. Add-on expansions need at least two things to sell, new units and new maps/campaigns. Ninjas are popular so here they come. I doubt there wil be a check box to leave them out. A fantasy/reality check box is what we need IMO!

It comes down to this:

Do we want Shogun to be mostly a wargame where the fun is reaching the victory conditions within historic parameters and where gross inaccuracies are disturbing?

OR

Do we want Shogun to be mostly an AoK/Starcraft RTS style game where the fun is using all sorts of units (real or imagined) in ways that are unimpeded by reality and where history is just a veneer?

This is not an insult to anyone. Both genres are fun. AoK and Starcraft have sold more than Shogun ever will. I play them both. I had hoped that Shogun would remain more a wargame and not become too ahistoric but the lure of the mass market is too great. No, I haven't played the expansion yet but I know what I like and this super unit business isn't it.

[Obake]

Tachi,

If it turns out that the developers ARE using the add-on in order to draw a certain buying public, I'm with you!

I don't blame you at all for your concerns as I have them also, but I've been satisfied with the decisions the developers made in the initial release and I see no reason not to assume they would be just as sound in their decision making this time around as well.

I doubt that we'll have a tireless Minamoto Yoshitsune or Musashi running around. Personally I'm hoping that most of everyone's concern is fueled by Scourge's SuperMonk thread from a while back.

As far as Archers go, check the dates on that Sengoku era artwork. My guess is that those pieces were created prior to 1550. I'll admit that I may be wrong about the Ashi archers (who am I to dispute Turnbull) but I seriously doubt that they were anything OTHER than few for the simple reason of practicality. Learning to use the bow effectively took many years while Ashi could be trained to use the arquebus in a matter of weeks. Don't forget that in 1549 Oda Nobunaga placed an order for 500 guns. By 1575 he had over 10,000 in his army. I doubt that he had that many archers especially when you consider that the effective killing range on an arquebus is more than double that of the bow.

At any rate, this discussion is more appropriately reserved for the History forum than here so I'll leave this thread back to it's original subject, the communities concerns about the new units.

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FearObake
I am the ghost of your fears.
Got a compliment or concern about a Fearful Ways member? Let us know about it HERE

[Tachikaze]

Obake,

Agreed. Perhaps, in the future, we shall meet on the battlefield of historical debate on the plains of the History/Cinema Forum to continue this epic struggle of twine and fletchery.



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A murky puddle becomes clear when it is still.

[Anssi Hakkinen]

Originally posted by Nelson:
Quote It's all about marketing. Add-on expansions need at least two things to sell, new units and new maps/campaigns. Ninjas are popular so here they come. I doubt there wil be a check box to leave them out. A fantasy/reality check box is what we need IMO![/QUOTE]All right, everyone (not just Nelson), take a deep breath. If necessary, let off some more steam in another fashion of your choice.

You are overreacting. STW is *certainly* not going to turn into another Starcraft or AoK just because an expansion pack introduces a Kensai unit. STW will never be Starcraft or AoK, because the entire game has taken a completely different standpoint from the very start.

The developers will be adding a unit composed of a single man. He will be able to take on an entire company of lesser men and, if not slay them all, at least emerge victorious. Admittedly, this is more the stuff of legends (NOT fantasy) than something that has really occurred on the field and been immortalized in reliable military annals. But how does this suddenly turn the entire game into a cheap attempt to grab the ignorant public's money?

Look at the list of features that was presented weeks ago in the press release at the Community Site. Among all its other features (all of which are neat, IMO) it says it will include six new units. Four have already been named, and two of them are fully realistic and historical units. It has been expressly stated many times that we (the community) would like it very much if the Mongols were included, and they were.

The there are the BNinja. Now that I look at that Stephen Turnbull interview, I think he pretty much gives his blessings to the use of that unit in the game... "After all, they *were* used in the battlefield" or something to that effect. Then there's the Kensai, who will be there to do the enemy what Miyamoto Musashi did to the Yoshioka swordsmen.

This may not be a strict interpretation of history, but neither is the strategy map of Japan (no Settsu!), nor is the composition of the armies (not enough Ashigaru), nor is the use of massive formations of *exclusively* no-dachi- or naginata-wielding troops, nor is the presence of Warrior Monks.

STW is a compromise, like every digital reproduction of the real world. But the fundamental point is: I think CA is not trying to make a game about history because that history sells, but to make a game about history because that history is interesting... and in the case of Japan in particular, interesting means legendary. The samurai are a myth, more than anything else. To capture that mythical atmosphere as STW has so wonderfully done (enticing all of you!), it must be something of a myth itself.

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"Crystal clear, / Sharp and bright, / The sacred sword / Allows no opening / For evil to roost."
- Ueshiba Morihei O-Sensei

[This message has been edited by Anssi Hakkinen (edited 01-09-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Anssi Hakkinen (edited 01-09-2001).]

[The Daimyo]

Amen Anssi, you hit the nail on the head there, yet again.



(this is the part where the Moderator sends this post to another forum....
watch!)


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The Daimyo
Miaowara "Kakizaki" Tomokato
@ http://www.planettotalwar.com

[Zen Blade]

Actually, I am in the minority here....

I think that the master swordsman is a good addition if it is done correctly. Namely as a unit who can HOLD a defensive position by itself, without running.

I site the example of the disengagment of the Asakura army at the Anegawa. (in which one samurai with a no-dachi more or less used the samurai's code of honor to challenge opposing samurai to duels and held back the Tokugawa force long enough for the Asakura to disengage. However, this man and his son both perished while they were doing this action)

Also, I don't know if we know how the swordsman will be incorporated in the game, but it is possible that this will not be a "building unit". It could be a slight upgrade to a single soldier who has gained a lot of honor, or may only be available in certain game scenarios.

-Zen Blade

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Zen Blade Asai
Red Devil
Last of the RSG

[Shiro]

I've posted this in the expansion forum but I thought I'd say it again here. Since the Master Swordsman can "take out whole units" how much will this guy cost?

[Tachikaze]

I guess I'm just tired of hearing about ninja all the time. From halloween costumes, to manga, to silly movies, to junior high school boys telling exaggerated stories. I wish we could touch on the subject of historical Japan without ninjas hidding in the shadows every time. I think they played a very minor role in the history of Japan.

Their place in the current game is approprite because they fit better as a strategic factor, not tactical.

But I will wait and see what CA has got in mind.

[ltj]

I rather like the idea of a battlefield ninja, especially for multiplayer. As long as it doesn't end up as some kind of stealth-fighter-esque uberunit, undetectable (or, invisible) and unstoppable, it could provide a very interesting decision for players to make - take up a unit slot (or spend the koku, whichever is more relevant) for such a small "force" - whose effectiveness may or may not be widely compromised by a simple defensive position, over adding a full 60 (or however large you prefer) man unit to your army...

Naturally, the above is mostly (or completely!) pertaining to multiplayer gaming, but I doubt the effectiveness of the ninja against AI will be that overwhelming. After all, the software opponent handles its Daimyo and taisho's pretty poorly, often sending its meager 11 heavy calvary headlong into a mass of awaiting yari spears.

Either way, I anticipate the feedback (read: bitching) the expansion pack will create. Gamers are so opposed to change!

[solypsist]

Quote STW is *certainly* not going to turn into another Starcraft or AoK just because an expansion pack introduces a Kensai unit. STW will never be Starcraft or AoK, because the entire game has taken a completely different standpoint from the very start.[/QUOTE]

I dunno about that. If the expansion set's new units of dubious origin takes off, EA might feel compelled to develop more along the lines of fantasy. To the people who say all this complaing doesn't accomplish anything since what's done is done, I must point out that criticizing does make a difference, maybe not in the current release, but in future releases since someone is bound to notice and mention what "the people" have said about certain features. Even if it never gets past the discussion or planning, player reaction does play a roll (I hate to keep mentioning Zeus, but it is a development on Pharaoh, which is a development on Ceasar 3, etc. all of which tweaked player suggestion from one game to the next.)

Tell EA we don't like or we prefer something, and sometimes if may pay off in the next game.

[Didz]

I find these new units a bit worrying.

Is Shogun finally giving in to the Star Craft and Tiberium Sun lobby for super-units?

What about 'peasant miners' and 'Ninja suicide bombers':-)

What historical justification is there for them to be introduced into the game?