survived the romans

[Ash]

Perhaps everyone could define their definition of "nation", so we can all interpet each poster's reply correctly.

ps Modern day Israel is very different from the kingdom of Judea 2000 years ago.

[Hurin_Rules]

Good idea.

Perhaps Caesar44 is not a native English speaker, in which case the confusion regarding 'nation' may be completely understandable.

The English word 'nation' comes from the Latin 'natio', which usually means a people or tribe. But the modern English word nation more commonly refers to a 'nation-state', that is to say, a sovereign political entity.

If we define it as the latter, then clearly, there was no sovereign Jewish 'state' after the Roman conquest and the destruction of the Temple.

If we define it as the former, then clearly, there are many peoples and tribes, in addition to the Jews, who survived the Roman conquest. The Jews also retained their distinctive religion (although as Pindar noted it went through some important changes after 70 CE), which was unusual. But alongside the Jews we could also place the Greeks, Arabs, various Slavic and Germanic tribes, etc.

[iostephanos]

... But alongside the Jews we could also place the Greeks, Arabs, various Slavic and Germanic tribes, etc...

... except that the original criteria were that the culture be unchanged, religion unaltered, etc.; the modern day greeks, germans, slavs, et al are christians today because of the roman empire in one form or another.

also, if we posit that nothing happens in a vacuum, then the idea of the jews being 'unaltered' is flawed; even the famous statement which begins "give unto caesar...", used supposedly also by contemporaries of jesus, shows signs of stress and adaptation.

greek, hebrew, german, etc. all have names of latin derivation.

and one profound effect in greek culture was an elevation of the status of the common woman...

steph

[Hurin_Rules]

Heh, then maybe a better question would be, "Who survived Christianity?"

[caesar44]

is there anywhere in the map from england to iraq a pagan nation ? no
is there is a pure celtic nation ? no
germany of today have the same culture of the germans tribes of ancient times ? no
is there is a hellenic nation like that of ancient times ? no
the tribes of italy survived ? no
where are the hispanic tribes of anciet times ? gone ! spain of today is a mix of arabs latins celts ets
where are the phoenicians ? gone !!
where are the ancient egyptians ? gone !
where are the numidians ? the gaetulians ? the sarmatians ? the dacians ? the thracins ? the pontics ? the parthians ? all gone !!
these are only facts not statements
think logically , if i said survived the roman conquest i meant surviving as a ethnic nation and not an independent nation we are talking about conquest and surviving it
the jews are here after the romans and what that got to do with the state of israel andits struggle against the palestinians ?
if these facts are offensives so i am very sorry
please , stop with the greek example - the greeks have a different religion a different names , culture ets ethnically they are not the greeks of ancient times , helas of socrates plato pericles alcibiades is not hellas of theodoracis
again , sorry if the facts are so offensives

[Pindar]

i meant surviving as a ethnic nation and not an independent nation we are talking about conquest and surviving it
...

Ethnicity and nationhood are not necessarily the same. By joining the two as the area of focus the possible candidates for study is greatly reduced.

This becomes a problem with the simple reference to Jewry as well. The Jewish Kingdom established with Saul ceased to exist in 587 B.C. with the coming of the Babylonians. By the time of the Maccabean revolt there was already a Diaspora in effect. Large swaths of Jews lived in Mesopotamia, Egypt and elsewhere outside of Hasmonian influence. Further, after Pompey subjugated Jerusalem there was no real surviving Jewish polity to speak of so this undercuts the grounding noun (nation) of your thesis.

If one were to simply focus on the ethnic aspect of Jewry this again raises difficulties. Judaism was not the same after the destruction of the Temple. The faith changed with the removal to the center piece of devotional life. As far as base cultural mores are concerned: Ashkenazi, Sephardic, Ethiopic as well as more exotic varieties of Jewish life are distinct. Thus, politically, religiously and culturally Jewish ethnicity was a different creature after the Roman Period.