Accurate Towns In Rome Total War Mod Suggestion!!!

[Lonely Soldier]

Hi all,

I just had a thought. Has anyone else noticed how none of the settlements in Rome: Total War are accurately recreated from historical evidence or texts?
I know I have! That is why I am suggesting that someone with the know-how and the spare time, could attempt to recreate some of the major cities of the ancient world as close to their original plans as possible. I am sick of seeing cities laid out on the same basic grid plan!

For example: the city of Carthage did in fact incorporate its port (a mighty structure which could dry dock 200 military ships and which also had an outer dock for merchant vessels, this could even be a Wonder!) into the city.
the city of Athens was built around the imposing fortified Acropolis. Rome was built on seven hills and Byzantium's wall systems were not breached until the Turks blew them down with cannon, some 1200 years after their cpnstruction!
It also seems ludicrous to me that cities are not built on high ground- as they always were when circumstance allowed- like Jerusalem. I would love to see a city worth taking purely for its defensive merits!!! Or even just for its picturesque location!!!!

Sorry for that rant but its something I would love to see implemented in the game! Perhaps anyone willing could incorporate with Rome: Total Realism? Also, though this is somewhat seperate, are the defences available to the European barbarians really accurate to their means? surely they could have dug ditches or erected walls of spikes or constructed some kind of bank around their towns??? And another thing: where are the MOATS??

Once again I got carried away. Anyway this mod could be very popular and add a lot to the game!

Over to you!

Lonely Soldier

[Trajen the 1st]

i Agree with you all the way! If only somone new how to model the buildings ive always felt a lack of true atmosphere in the towns of RTW, in other words. I didint feel like i was looking at a legit(sp?) city from the ancient world. They all looked the same!!

[SwordsMaster]

The problem is: The cities are 1 tile on the map. And as such MUST be represented in a unique battlefield. It is possible to alter the layouts of the capitals modifying the streets layout and such, and even add a few distinctive buildings for capitals, but the cities will still be represented by a single square on the map, and thus cant be shown in their full beauty.

Alternatively, what could be done is create a battlefield that would BE a city and thus having an urban warfare map, but then the "assault the walls" factor would be lost as armies would be placed straight "inside" the city.

I dont know if I explained well enough, but heh...

[metatron]

Constantinople's walls weren't started until the Romans seriously developed it after Constantine.

[Marshal Murat]

I couldn't agree more.
I would love to hold Jerusalem against a Selucid army, holding them down the hill.

I agree, that we should incorperate some form of historical basis.
Especially Carthage with its two harbors, Babylon with its hanging gardens, and otherwise. Heck I would enjoy just viewing the city.

[Myrddraal]

This could be done by implementing different town plans using custom maps...

[Rodion Romanovich]

I think this sounds like a nice mod idea. However why so worried about only one map tile per settlement? It's a huge improvement even if you just build smaller versions of the real cities, anything in that direction is better than the standard cities they have now IMO. A question: will these modified cities also have buildings appear when you build them? For example in Athens, should parthenon be there even if you only have a shrine in the city? IMO the best way of implementing this mod would be to change what's in cities from start so that Athens for example starts with temple or large temple and so on.

I also wonder if it's possible when making Carthage to make that cool dry dock change as the port of the city is upgraded?

[Lonely Soldier]

Swordsmaster - I had another thought about the multiple tile settlements thing. Could you make a placeable (in the same way as a road) wall model and have it as an impassable campaign/battle map object, which would be developed as your settlements walls would be (obviously placing gatehouses where roads pass through etc.)? This is considering that roads change appearance as you upgrade them as do ports and settlements. This considered would it be possible to create several new campaign/battle map tiles which would appear as urban areas (using the models for the campaign and battle map settlements). You could then place the right shaped urban landscape tiles (which would be added as the settlement expanded) and develop your walls, road-like, around them (using the unwalled settlement model on the campaign map and designing the new tiles to fit into this)? Another benifit of this could be extra walls as at Jerusalem (around the royal precinct) etc. The main problem I can see in this is that the walls would have to change position in relation to the settlements expansion, and I'm not sure whether the walls/roads can be altered in terms of path "dynamically" per se.

LegioXXXUlpiaVictrix - I definately agree that any added realism is a huge improvement! But I am hesitant to give up on the multi-tile approach just yet. And regarding your other comments:

"A question: will these modified cities also have buildings appear when you build them? For example in Athens, should parthenon be there even if you only have a shrine in the city? IMO the best way of implementing this mod would be to change what's in cities from start so that Athens for example starts with temple or large temple and so on."

I agree with all you've said here and yes buildings will be added as you build them (unless the settlement has them at the start) just in the correct positions this time (see images of Athens layout - The Odeon, for example, when built, will appear in the position seen on these maps, or those that are most relevant anyway). Its just a matter of working out what should be there at the start! Which for the major cities (like Athens) shouldn't be too hard.

"I also wonder if it's possible when making Carthage to make that cool dry dock change as the port of the city is upgraded?"

Carthage may have its "uber-dock" from the start as the game begins after it was built. If we choose not to give Carthage the dock from the start it will most likely be an upgrade after Dockyard.

Please ask me to clarify if any of this is not clear!

Lastly, any modellers or other people with useful skills (who have nothing better to do!) please start applying whenever you wish!

[SwordsMaster]

Swordmaster - I had another thought about the multiple tile settlements thing. Could you make a placeable (in the same way as a road) wall model and have it as an impassable campaign/battle map object, which would be developed as your settlements walls would be (obviously placing gatehouses where roads pass through etc.)? This is considering that roads change appearance as you upgrade them as do ports and settlements.

You could do that, but then the walls would be undestructable.

This considered would it be possible to create several new campaign/battle map tiles which would appear as urban areas (using the models for the campaign and battle map settlements). You could then place the right shaped urban landscape tiles (which would be added as the settlement expanded) and develop your walls, road-like, around them (using the unwalled settlement model on the campaign map and designing the new tiles to fit into this)?

Let me see if I´m getting it right: You want to put several "cities" in the campmap, and make each represent a different part of the city, right?

I havent tried that, but it might be possible. I´m not sure if each city has to have a minimum distance from another city to be viable.

Then again, even if you managed to do that, you would have to develop each of the parts as a different city altogether which would be quite a mess.

It may be worth a try though

[Lonely Soldier]

Swordmaster - That's pretty much it regarding the urban areas. However they'd be more like the less dense kind of forests. For example armies can move in and out of them. The different urban tiles would not be settlements in their own right. The idea would be to have a cluster of these "urban tiles" surrounding an unwalled central town piece/tile (this would be the settlement that the player interacted with).

Also, pertaining to the indestructible walls: I agree this is a big issue! Thanks for pointing it out! Considering that campaign pieces can change their appearence (though not roads, I grant you), ports blockaded (but I don't think this has a battle map representation), volcanoes erupting etc. then theoretically you could have walls which could be destroyed and have another model for certain sections. Also, another dynamic effect on the campaign map which you may have nnoticed, is when an army is in a position for a long duration the ground around them becomes scorched, this could be another way to have walls destroyed (though I am now just clutching at straws).

On another matter - make sure to check back on my previous posts (particularly those on new models and settlement details!).

Anyway thanks for the continued interest Swordsmaster!

[Lonely Soldier]

This is a Placeholder for ideas on new structures etc.

There will probably be some new or altered models required. These MAY include:

Port of Carthage

Sea walls - as at Syracuse, Byzantium and others

Parthenon at Athens

Senate House at Rome

"Close-up" ship and port models - for when your soldiers are actually in a port or right on the coast etc.

Possible reskins of current buildings - Mainly Eastern factions, Carthage etc.

Walled cliffs - cliff faces which have been walled over and had battlements incorporated.

Possibly some new fortifications - mainly for barbarians may include:

Spike wall/ spikes set in ground/pits

Dry moats

Banks running up to walls

Multiple walls and terracing

This post will be periodically updated.