Billmen Vs Halbardiers ???????????????

[sir_schwick]

Billmen are tactically superior for every purpose but arrow spongery. The high armour of Halbeards will make them soak up tons of arrow fire with little or no casualties.

[_Aetius_]

I consider Halberdiers to be like the infantry classes version of a tank, their heavy armour can help them sustain immense pressure and can push through infantry and cavaklry in fair circumstances.

Billmen are lighter but have better morale and are faster moving on the battlefield, if i had to choose id choose billmen.

Id also like to see who is greater out of billmen, halberdiers AND swiss halberdiers. I may do some tests to find out.

[Zarax]

Billmen VS Halbs is more or less a draw unless you go in hot climates where the heavy halbs will roast, but in many situation the billmen will prevail thanks to their morale...
On the other side Swiss halbs will beat both in a straight fight as they are pumped up billmen (or bills are toned down swiss).

[Procrustes]

On the other side Swiss halbs will beat both in a straight fight as they are pumped up billmen (or bills are toned down swiss).

The swiss have a little more attack and a lot more moral, but less defense and armor than the billmen. I posted there stats above, too - courtesy of Frogbeastegg's unit guide.

[Zarax]

Their lower armor negates armor piercing, while higher attack will offset for the lower defence against billmen and AP kills vanilla halbs.

[Procrustes]

Their lower armor negates armor piercing, while higher attack will offset for the lower defence against billmen and AP kills vanilla halbs.

Hi,

I've always been a little confused by that - my understanding is that the armor peircing bonus won't apply against non-armored units, but that doesn't mean you get a penalty for attacking a non-armored unit with an armor-piercing unit. Do you understand differently?

Best,

(As an aside, this discussion is making me wonder whether polearms the most effective unit to use against other polearms. Seems that the strength of polearms is against cav, and that swords would be better at taking out polearms. Hmm.... I'm seeing some testing coming up tonight.)

[sir_schwick]

A true story*:

I am playing a game as the English/Early/Hard. It is 1202 and I own North Africa, Iberia, Britain, Western Europe, Northern Italy, Germany and Scandinavia. Sharing borders with Papacy, Polish, Byzantines. In the year 1205 the French resurge in Ile de France with 6k men, all Chivalric knights, Halbeards, Crossbows, Chivalric Sargeants, etc. All I can respond with is 3k of some okay to l337 troops out of Burgundy. Anyway, the first wave is 2 chivalric knights, the RK, 6 Halbeards, and the rest Crossbows or Chivlaric Sargeants or CMAA. My longbows are not doing much to the Halbeards and I charge knowing I will end up retreating. AFter about two seconds of having swamped the Halbeards, they all ran. I quickly regrouped and hit the remaining army hard, causing them to run. The whole rebellion is crushed and my finally gets his Specialist Defender virtue. Morale of the story, the best way to deal with Halbeards is to attack from all sides and hard. If it had been Billmen or Swiss Halbeards, they would have chopped up a bunch of my horses(funny charge huh?) and infantry first.

Billmen and Swiss Halbeards cannot go into arrow storms, but they can be used as flankers or against spearwalls. The lower defence and armour is actually good in the desert and against anti-armour troops. I would not recommend letting either of these units handle heavy cavalry charges head on. They can, but its like sending HC straight into the enemy 'ala King Arthur.

*from my mother's sister's roomate's mailman's veterinarian's client's baby's mama's lawyer's associate's defence contractor buddy's wife's manicurists's liscenser's mother's estranged gay son's husband who knows an editor at some computer games magazine

[Zarax]

Hi,

I've always been a little confused by that - my understanding is that the armor peircing bonus won't apply against non-armored units, but that doesn't mean you get a penalty for attacking a non-armored unit with an armor-piercing unit. Do you understand differently?

Best,

(As an aside, this discussion is making me wonder whether polearms the most effective unit to use against other polearms. Seems that the strength of polearms is against cav, and that swords would be better at taking out polearms. Hmm.... I'm seeing some testing coming up tonight.)

No, against armor lower than 3 you simply don't have the bonus.
Without AP you can only use the base attack (3 at best, only a few units like huscarles, VG and JHI can do better) and so you loose a good degree of effectiveness.
Swiss halbs still retains a good attack but the others are quite plain on melee without it.

The best counter against halbs?

Gallowglasses, Highlanders or Ghazis.
No armor = less damage taken, mounted crossbows also do wonders against vanilla halbs.