Gunpowder units

[Byzantine Prince]

Ok how do you effectively use gunpowder units. I know that they are suposed to be on the frontlines but what are they suposed to do once the hand-to-hand fighting has comenced?

[Duke of Gloucester]

They are cheap, expendable, and have some armour. I use them to assault castles - nothing else.

I would be interested to hear what more expert posters have to say.

[Byzantine Prince]

I didn't mean cannons. I meant handgun units.

I too am interested in what the experts have to say.

[Procrustes]

Well, I'm not an expert but I've found that the regular handgunners aren't bad if you use them kinda like javelins that can fight. Don't put them in your front line - keep them in your second line or on the flanks. When your main line engages, try to run your handgunners around the flanks or back and get off a volley or two. When things get messy then charge your handgunners into the enemy - they have the stats to fight. Note that they have a short range and slow reload rate, so don't expect to be able to stand there and deliver volley-after volley, and never expect them to halt a charge - you'll be lucky if they get off one volley.

Couple of cautions: (1) If it's raining then your handgunners can't fire - makes using them on defense a bit of a gamble. (2) There is some muslim handgunner unit (Mamluk gunners?) that I've only bought as mercs, and they stink - stay away from them, they have no melee capabilities to speak of. (3) I don't really like the arquebus units. The gun is a little more effect than the handguns, but not a lot - and they have crappy melee - you'll get more use out of a good unit of arbelasts.

Oh - almost forgot - imo skirmish doesn't work very well with any missile unit that has a short range; you need to take your handgunners off of "fire at will" and skirmish and micromanage them a bit.

Hope this helps a bit. I'll be interested in what others have to offer, too.

Best wishes,

[_Aetius_]

Gunpowder units arent very useful but remember in this period primitive muskets were highly inaccurate, dangerous to the user and have a shocking rate of fire, so its accurate to history that they are quite literally more miss than hit.

Notice that guns (have aside from other disadvantages to archers) are unable to fire over lines of troops, this means that whereas archers can be placed behind your infantry to fire over them at the charging enemy, guns cant and will kill your own men instead.

They are superior when firing upon armoured troops, however for the time it takes for one shot volley from arquebuisers (sp?) to be fired 3 4 or even 5 volleys from archers can be fired (im not sure on the ratio) however gunpowder troops are vastly superior in melee, arquebuisers for example have very good armour and can easily hold their own for long periods of time as can arbalesters. Handgunners I think are absolutely useless, aside from using them as cannon fodder when assaulting castles and on some bridge battles where they can fire from the side.

One good thing about arbs which I dont think actually use gunpowder but are in the same class seperate from archers is their range, placed ontop of a hill they can fire volleys into specific targets causing much damage for example having 3 units of arbalesters concentrate fire on one enemy unit namely the enemy generals unit can kill him from a great distance.

Overall archers are vastly superior I suppose gunpowder causes fear but they are inconsistant and I have very few examples of gunpowder playing a pivotal role in any battle ive used them in.

[ajaxfetish]

Arbalests definitely aren't guns, rather they're the highest quality crossbows, having the slowest rate of fire, but the greatest range and power. One great advantage that they have over guns and even other archers is that they can fight just as effectively in the rain. This is because they employ a steel string that doesn't get soggy like other bowstrings or gunpowder.

[Ironside]

(2) There is some muslim handgunner unit (Mamluk gunners?) that I've only bought as mercs, and they stink - stay away from them, they have no melee capabilities to speak of

The only pupose for mamluk handguns are the second/third line in the (hotest type of) desert. Regular handguns (arbs, cross and arq too) will tire after a while and fresh handgunners work well against exhausted troops, being able to skirmish and can rout the enemy easily.

Etremly limited use, but they have one purpose. Was shocked when I found this out.

[hrvojej]

One of the uses of gun units is to put them on hold position and fire at will right in front of the melee line. They will likely manage to get off a volley before they are charged, absorb the charge, and still be able to do reasonably well in melee. As soon as the melee starts, charge the infantry that stood behind the guns forward. You are likely to have casualties in the gun units, but the enemy is also quite likely to be routed sooner than they normally would be.
Another thing to try is to get them to fire into an already engaged melee units. Do NOT fire through your units though, position the guns to the rear (or flank) of the enemy. Their fear effect just might break them. However, be prepared to friendly fire, as bullets that miss the enemy will fly through and could possibly hit your men as well.

[English assassin]

Another thing to try is to get them to fire into an already engaged melee units.

This is their only use IMHO. You may be able to trigger a rout due to the morale penalty. Handgunners have OK melee stats but not enough to be worth building for that alone.

[damage_13]

iv'e used the arbquesers (sp?) just behind a spear unit on the flanks... when you engage the enemy, close the jaws and rake their flanks with fire...

Also, when facing Hv Cav, have a unit or two side by side in a rank two deep. When the calvery charge... they should get off 1 and if you're lucky (cos they stall) two unit rounds off. This is devastating to any cav ..(and indeed .. armoured infantry).. after the shot depending on est time to cc impact rush them behind your spear wall and prepare them to flank.

[Byzantine Prince]

How come only 3 of them shoot each time? Am I doing something wrong or are just a few of them suposed to actually look like they are shooting. This also hapens with archers, there's always like 3 of them that don't shoot arrows. IS this or bug or somehting else?

[ichi]

Late in the game if you can match up some Arquebusiers with a high ranking General you can make a very nice unit that has been used in MP for a long time quite effectively.

In MP Late era games people use Arques at V4A3 - these guys have so much defense bonus they can take a charge from cav or inf and hold for a very long time. To use them correctly in this mode place them on Hold Formation/Hold Position 4 ranks deep.

OK so its hard to get pumped up Arques in the campaign mode, but if you build them in armored provinces and hook them up with high star gens, you can get a unit that can devastate even the best cav and footknights.

Keep gunners away from arrow/xbow/arbalest fire, they don't do well.

ichi

[Kralizec]

I did a test once, v4 arques when firing at peasants (though any other unit will do just as good, since the bullets are armour piercing) will kill 2-4 guys per voley. This is when they are deployed in 3 ranks and on roughly flat ground. This is not an impressive kill rate though compared to X-bows and arbies with the same valour.

I used handgunners occasionally in Byzantine campaigns, but only because of the lack of spear units. Handgunners with armour and morale upgrades offer a cheap unit that can hold out for a fairly long time.

[sir_schwick]

If you manage to rear-side flank-fire here are the morale penalties for those 2-4 kills.

-6 for gunpowder
-1 for death from ranged
-2 for threatened flanks
-4 for fear? might be included in gunpowder

[ichi]

If you manage to rear-side flank-fire here are the morale penalties for those 2-4 kills.

-6 for gunpowder
-1 for death from ranged
-2 for threatened flanks
-4 for fear? might be included in gunpowder

which is substantial, especially once the enemy unit gets additional penalties for being tired and depleted. With all of those morale penalties all it takes is for a Knight or two to rout nearby, or the death or rout of the Gen, and it's chain-rout city.

I don't use or see a lot of guns in my SP campaigns, but online the use of Arques late in a battle can cause routing in units even before they make physical contact with the Arques.

ichi

[sephirothno12000]

I realize that they are not gunpowder units...but...HOW DO I OBTAIN NAPTHA THROWERS AS THE GERMANS?!

[sephirothno12000]

email me at sephirothno12000@yahoo.com, if you have an answer,please...It would be very much appreciated.

[ichi]

You'll have to mod the game to allow Germans to have Naptha Throwers, bribe a unit, or buy one as mercenaries.

For info on modding, check out the MTW Modifications Forum.

To bribe, drop an emissary on 'em.

To get a good chance to buy as mercs, capture some provinces in the area around Rum and build inns but don't upgrade the castles.

ichi

[sephirothno12000]

k...this sounds like a newb ?, but...how exactly do i mod it?

[sephirothno12000]

nm...i didn't see the info on moding...thanks