Has anyone been to totalwar.com recently

[Catiline]

all pretty much the same issue and the samer complaints Threads merged

[AussieGiant]

From TheShogun over a .com.

"Guys this thread has just about run it's course before it's heads down flame alley, so I moved the thread to rants and raves. "

So they've moved the 12 page thread over to Rants and Raves now which basically means that they are no longer taken this issue seriously (not that they ever did seem to take it seriously) and that they 100% truly believe that this issue is a not a bug.

I had hoped that the CA Staff member who made the comment was only speaking for himself and that CA would come out and say something else....how naive of me.

Basically it proves once again that they are just trying to sweep this under the carpet and ignore everyone.

Bravo CA for your customer service and feedback.

Cheers
Starkhorn

Well that is just Exxxcellent!! *sarcasm*

[Browning]

The thread in question has been restarted (not by me).

Let's hope the stubbornness the community addresses the issue will get noted by the developers and convince them that it is a real problem - the issue, not the stubbornness.

[player1]

********************************************
IMPORTANT INFO HERE: CODERS PLEASE READ THIS
********************************************

Ok, I think there is something more into this bug (or "strange animal" whatever...):

This requires one minute of testing a top.

1) Start game as Brutii or Scipii.
2) Save the game.
3) Press end of turn.
4) Julii will 100% of time take Segesta.

5) Now load saved game.
6) Press end of turn.

7) Julii will NEVER take Segesta, they'll just regroup!


Now, this makes my earlier hypothesis of AI losing long term plans, since they don't get saved, a little bit dodgy. This happens on 1st turn, before Julii had any plans.

Is it possible that loading game, corrupts AI logic in such way that they somehow don't try offensive actions in turn after load?

By trying similar tests in long term (EndOfTurn/save/load/EndOfTurn cycle), it happens that no territiry switches hand for whole game. This includes terriories without walls, so it's definetly not just seiges problem.



This bug (or "strange animal") affects mostly players that don't play long-term sessions, as well as late and mid game when turns get very long.

[SpencerH]

An amazing definition of a bug; no CTD no bug. :shakes head:

This whole debacle with RTW is really really disappointing. There seems to be no point in trying to be constructive any more. IMO, all thats left is to try to pass our disatisfaction on to the game review sites and influence CA's (self destructive) behaviour in that manner.

[AussieGiant]

player1,

I tell you something...between you and DimeBagHo's very simple test parameters these CA guys really do have their heads where the sun is not shining.

It really is embaressing.

Oh and have you seen the view hits on this topic from potentially hundreds of people instested in the topic!!!

LOL!! The traction this topic is getting is incredible.

If you refresh ever 3 minutes the number keeps going up and up!!

[hrvojej]

the BUG is YOU not the GAME

Paraphrasing: "One morning, Gregor Samsa woke up transformed into a cockroach... "

This is a really retarded viewpoint. I don't think I ever used this term on these forums before, but this one deserves every letter of it. That's right, I'm the bug because I bought this product in the first place, and I thought that I could *reload* a friggin game save, oh the insolence. Me buying this game was a glitch in the system that needs to be corrected. I assure you, however, that unlike with some other problems the patch in this particular case is on its way.

[Browning]

OT:
The fact that they have "techincal moderators" (Spelling original!) on those boards speaks volumes on the moderation quality on .com !

[Old Celt]

Greetings Ladies and Gentlemen,

@Bat: We have a definite disagreement about what is a rant. I posted my original document here so the entire community would at least get to read it. If you really believed it needed to be in rants, then you should have moved it NOT censored ++++++++++++++++++. It sure doesn't surprise me that YOU think you're fair. Oh, and since it's a volunteer position, how do I volunteer? Please don't try to tell me you don't moderate to a CA mandated agenda. I've been around the block a few times. I won't waste my time posting where the forum is not legitimate.

Now, to the subject at hand: like Red Harvest and Bhruic, I work in software development. Do you think that just maybe, we know what a freakin BUG is???!!! All we are seeing here is absolutely PATHETIC attempts at damage control, none of which involve a real solution, or even an acknowledgement of the bug's existence!! I've been holding off from speaking with my personal contacts in the game review industry, because I think it is only fair to give CA/Activision/SEGA a fair chance to resolve this issue. But if they don't want to play ball, then I will bend some ears until they look like Mr Spock on Star Trek. You reap what you sow: if CA wants to alienate their customers, they shouldn't be surprised when they reap the whirlwind.

@CA Staff: it is totally inexcusable to insult your customers under any circumstances. Can't you get that very basic customer service premise? It's clear to me, that at least some of you think we "plebians" cannot say anything to you worth hearing. Well please do us a favor, and at least pretend to care and respect our opinions. Then you can make fun of us privately with no hard feelings on our part. We have been insulted by a staff member telling us "we had no clue", about the problem, and then, this all time classic: "The BUG is YOU"!! If any dev ever had the audacity to speak like that to a customer in my organization, his/her head would be rolling down the hall inside of 3 seconds.

I consider the option of speaking with game review sources to be the option of last resort because it is lose/lose for CA and the customer. The win/win option is for CA to listen to what we have said, evaluate and assess it objectively, respond to our concerns and provide a working solution for the issues. Though this will cost T&E for CA, it will bring loyalty back from the consumers, and rather than criticizing CA, we will praise their willingness to do "whatever it takes" to make things right. Please, don't let this be a case where the consumers have nothing left to hope for but, REVENGE.

Have a pleasant day all

[starkhorn]

Well this experience and other games is beginning to open my eyes to a demand some sort of bug/patch watching website or forum for games. i.e. where serious bugs exist in games which game developers don't want to acknowledge or fix.

Might be useful, especially if game magazines start taking an interest.

Does any such website exist ?

Cheers
Starkhorn

[player1]

Well, I always thought that if such thing as "bug police" column exstsited in gaming magazines that overall post-patch support for games would rise, since forums read just core fans, and magazines many more.

[mfberg]

sort of bug/patch watching website or forum for games.

This is that forum for MTW and should be for RTW

mfberg

[player1]

This is that forum for MTW and should be for RTW

mfberg

Well, usually all fan forums are that.
the problem is that only core audience visits the forums, so bugs don't affect sales much.

Until such things get in paper (magazines), there is no hope for improving of bad patch policy trend.

[SpencerH]

Well, usually all fan forums are that.
the problem is that only core audience visits the forums, so bugs don't affect sales much.

Until such things get in paper (magazines), there is no hope for improving of bad patch policy trend.

The strange thing about that is why do the mods at .com and the CA employees (here and there) care about the complaints?

[Puzz3D]

A simple repeatable test using RTW v1.2 that demonstrates the loadgame/siege issue:

Julii imperial campaign, M/M difficulty, FOW false:

Start, 270 BC. Position the map so that you can see both Syracuse and Athens. Hit end turn.

Turn 1, 270 BC. Scipii sieges Syracuse which can hold 7 turns. Hit end turn.

Turn 2, 270 BC. Decline the trade offer from Gaul. Syracuse can hold for 6 turns. Hit end turn.

Turn 3, 269 BC. Accept the marriage offer. Syracuse can hold for 5 turns. Hit end turn.

Turn 4, 269 BC. Syracuse can hold for 7 turns. (Perhaps an unsuccessful assault was made and the siege has been reinstated.) Macedonia sieges Athens which can hold for 6 turns. Save the game. Hit end turn.

Turn 5, 268 BC. Syracuse can hold for 6 turns. Athens can hold for 5 turns. Hit end turn.

Turn 6, 268 BC. Syracuse can hold for 5 turns. Athens falls to Macedonia. Exit the game.

Load the savegame made on turn 4. It doesn't matter if you restart RTW or not because the result is the same in each case. Hit end turn.

Turn 5, 268 BC. Scipii lifts the siege on Syracuse and moves away. Macedonia lifts the siege on Athens and moves away. Hit end turn.

Turn 6, 268 BC. Scipii sieges Syracuse which can hold for 7 turns. Macedonia sieges Athens which can hold for 6 turns.

End of test.

Conclusion:

Clearly, loading the game caused both sieges to be lifted because neither siege was lifted when play was not interrupted by the save/load cycle. The expansion by Scipii and Macedonian is set back by the lifting of these sieges. I repeated this test several times with the same result each time. It's apparent that the AI forgot it was sieging after the reload, reformulated it's siege strategy on the first turn (turn 5) and reinstated the sieges on the second turn (turn 6). The course of the campaign is altered by saving and loading because Macdonia should already be in possession of Athens on turn 5, and Scipii should be further along in it's conquest of Syracuse.

I would classify this as an oversight that information the AI needs to continue from where it left off when the savegame was made is not in the savegame file. If this was intentionally coded like this by CA as their denial that it's a bug implies, then RTW is not a serious strategy game.

[Craterus]

Good research Puzz3D,

[Old Celt]

Test results recently posted on the dot com are indicative of the AI forgetting what it was doing when the game reloads; not only with sieges, but also with regard to troop movements. This also makes the inference that AI expansion strategy is rebooted to square one as well. The easily reproducible (though tedious) test of starting a new game and saving and reloading after each turn will show that NO provinces change hands with the AI after 20 turns of play. Why? Because the save game file must not be including the data for the AI to assess when play is resumed.

The tests posted, unless they can be challenged, clearly indicate a much farther reaching problem than just siege behavior. That might be why CA has not responded with anything other than denial. Perhaps they wish to see how much of this we can figure out before they make any admissions about what they will fix.

Regardless of whether or not we free beta testers (I mean players who paid for the product) can expose the entire iceberg, it has been conclusively proven there is a substantial bug with AI behavior when the game is reloaded from a save. Now, CA can continue to deny it, but the proof is out there for everyone to see. Hopefully, CA will stop sticking its collective heads in the sand and start a constructive dialog with the RTW community to work toward resolving the problems. If CA won't be coaxed to do this in a cordial way, then maybe SEGA can be persuaded to take some ownership and force CA to do the right thing.
We need a patch!

[Puzz3D]

Well I think it's important to post whatever evidence we can accumulate on this issue, and I think it will eventually be brought to the attention of the dev who programmed this part of the game, and he'll realize that some info which the AI needs in order to properly continue the game is missing in the savegame file. As I said before, the public posts that CA makes are more like damage control than anything else, and that has to be considered when reading those posts. Of course, it's a little scary that info is missing from the savegame in the first place.

One of the big problems at .com is that no matter how good a thread is it eventually falls off the forum at page 20. CA may not get around to looking at outstanding issues in RTW for quite some time depending on how hard pressed they are in getting the next project finished.

[screwtype]

"Yes, the fin surface temperature is wrong by 10 K, but it does not halt the program, sir, I am not going to correct it."

ROFL!

[AussieGiant]

Well gentlemen the thread over at the COM is AGAIN gaining momentum rapidly.

It is certainly worth keeping up with it over there as more information regarding gain protectorates and this bug seem to be linked as well.

Also rcp1 found the following sentence in the readme file of the last patch:

"All future disaster events and historical events were being erased when a save game was loaded up. This is now fixed".

His comments:

"It is possible and entirely likely that this issue is closely related to the disaster issue. Disasters were simply the tip of a very large iceberg.

I'd be willing to put good money on it."

---------------------------

It really does feel like a cracking episode of Bold and the Beautiful or maybe even EastEnders now.

[Browning]

I remember reading that the Bug was present in 1.1 but not that pronounced. Can anybody confirm this (and hopefully invalidate the statement)? I do not have the space to have to RTW installations on my comp.

[JimBob]

Browning, luckily, for you at least, my computer came crashing down recently, forcing me to wipe everything and start fresh(who would thing that I would combine 'luckily' and any mention of reinstalling windows). So I had a 1.0 installation of RTW and tested the bug on 1.0 and 1.1 results follow:
Setup and rules: Imperial Campaign, No Advice, M/M, Manage All, M/M, Brutii, on start all cities to low tax rate, fog of war false, no accepting marriage, City of Phraaspa test subject
1.0 tests-
Start1-Senate Mission-Take Appollonia, 10 turn limit, 1 minor exotic unit reward.
Start1+1-Parthian Army(Arsaces leader, 5 ? units+bodygaurd) approach Phraaspa(3 turns hold, 3 unknown units, no walls). Save game Testing(1Phraaspa).
Start1+2.1-Parthian Army takes Phraaspa, qutii
Start1+2.2-relaod Parthian army bypasses Phraaspa.

Start2-Same as Start1.
Start2+1-Parthian Army(Arsaces leader, 5 ? units+bodygaurd) approach Phraaspa(3 turns hold, 3 unknown units, no walls).
Start2+2.1-Parthian army takes Phraaspa.
Start2+2.2-Did not save-false test.

Start3-Same as Start1 except reward=you will be greatly rewarded.
Start3+1-Marriage request, Parthian Army(Arsaces leader, 5 ? units+bodygaurd) approach Phraaspa(3 turns hold, 3 unknown units, no walls). Save game Testing(3Phraaspa).
Start3+2.1-Parthian Army takes Phraaspa, quit
Start3+2.2-reload Parthian army turns south

1.1 tests-
Start4-Same as Start1 except nothing
Start4+1-Parthian Army(Arsaces leader, 5 ? units+bodygaurd) approach Phraaspa(3 turns hold, 3 unknown units, no walls). Save game Test(4Phraaspa).
Start4+2.1-Parthian Army takes Phraaspa, quit
Start4+2.2-relaod Marriage Request, Army stops, Arcases disapperes.

Start5-Same as Start1 except reward=you will be greatly rewarded.
Start5+1-Parthian Army(Arsaces leader, 5 ? units+bodygaurd) approach Phraaspa(3 turns hold, 3 unknown units, no walls). Save game Test(5Phraaspa).
Start5+2.1-Parthian Army takes Phraaspa, quit
Start5+2.2-reload Parthian army stops in place.
I continued to see if Parthia would later take the city. At +5 turns Armenia took Phraaspa.

The bug has been around since 1.1 it seems, these tests are not complete enough to tell but I am unable to complete them, someone else could use this as a jumping off point. All turns and moves are documented in screenshots and I still have the save games.
Also I apologize for the spelling and grammer errors, this was quickly typed from notes in my own very strange form of shorthand, I will fix that later.

[Marcus Maxentius]

Another big problem is that so many games are bought because of multiplayer. They might not think singleplayer is important because it doesn't create as much sales. If you notice the first patch was a multiplayer hotfix. You'd think that since singleplayer has so many problems that that would be their first concern.

[Craterus]

I bought the game for the SP.. I didn't know the multiplayer was a reason customers bought the game

[tai4ji2x]

I bought the game for the SP.. I didn't know the multiplayer was a reason customers bought the game

actually, online i had encountered numerous players that didn't even know a single-player campaign existed.

[Pode]

I posted in another thread to similar effect, but since Bat showed up in this particular thread I feel like I should reiterate that he is IMHO one of if not the best of the mods over there and I truly appreciate his dedication both to the TW games (by undertaking such a thankless mod task) and to fair, civilised, rational discussion. I have promised earlier (and I encourage all of you to do the same) never to cross post anything he says here on the .org to the .com, so that he can safely take off the mod hat and feel free to say what he thinks. He's treated me and many other unhappy customers with respect, and so the least we can do is give him the same courtesy. Kill54, OTOH, I will never forgive for calling me paranoid and delusional, so if I slip and make some comment about the modding in general, I don't mean to include Bat.

I feel like such a fool. Just realized I was confusing Bat with Wart. Still intend to honor my promise not to cross post, just because that's the right thing to do, but take back some (not all) of the kind words

[Aurelius]

Speaking as a .com mod, I have to say that Bat has done a fantastic job since the first day he began posting. It makes me feel great that he's getting the proper respect he deserves, considering the time and effort he puts into the .com site.

Speaking strictly as a member of the TW community, I would have to say that there are many, many times when frustration over bugs and game issues gets personal over there, and the colours of fact and opinion blur together, resulting in the very smog that bores into the foreheads of the more articulate patrons. On the matter of all of us being 'company men', well, that line of thinking doesn't hold water because on a forum where there are literally hundreds of repeat posts, outright garbage, and the occasional concerted effort to make the place look like a death camp, (IE: certain 'incursions' by groups from other forums), it's obvious to all concerned that some weeks we're going to look more like butchers than surgeons. Don't mistake our silence on some matters for mute acceptance of the party line. Do you think it's a coincidence that some threads, full to the brim with venom and inarticulate rubbish, get some 'official' (oh, how I'm growing to hate that word) attention when someone makes a good point? Most days I feel like an avalanche rescue worker, sticking a fibreglass pole into the white noise drifts in the hope of salvaging a good post or thread from asphyxiation. I know there are more 'refined' places to have more intricate conversations, but I also know that if every member of the .org that met some cool people at .com posted an asterisk on this thread, it would be 130 pages long, mates.

I'm just trying to hold the breach so that there's a chance that .com patrons can make the sort of friends that I have since I started skulking back in the Shogun days. Please don't paint me with a fascist brush. We all have our moments, but for pity's sake realize that the place just blew past 22,222 today as far as posters go. It isn't fair to compare a forum that's advertised in who knows how many countries to the private forums that the dedicated TW heads set up. It's the difference between a guy who has every Grateful Dead album ever released on their label, and the guy who has been obsessively looking for the gig that was taped by hand on Jerry's last birthday. ( I was there- does anyone have it? )

I'm trying to be as honest and earnest as possible in this post.... I hope I've succeeded.


Enjoy Being.

EDIT: Don't cut that bastard Wart any slack. LMAO !!

[Turbo]

Thanks to JimBob for verifying that the load/save bug has been around since 1.0. Unfortunately, CA has decided that this is a feature (yeah right).

[Nelson]

I'm just trying to hold the breach so that there's a chance that .com patrons can make the sort of friends that I have since I started skulking back in the Shogun days. Please don't paint me with a fascist brush. We all have our moments, but for pity's sake realize that the place just blew past 22,222 today as far as posters go. It isn't fair to compare a forum that's advertised in who knows how many countries to the private forums that the dedicated TW heads set up. It's the difference between a guy who has every Grateful Dead album ever released on their label, and the guy who has been obsessively looking for the gig that was taped by hand on Jerry's last birthday. ( I was there- does anyone have it? )

I'm trying to be as honest and earnest as possible in this post.... I hope I've succeeded.

Hang in there, brother!

[Nelson]

Another big problem is that so many games are bought because of multiplayer. They might not think singleplayer is important because it doesn't create as much sales. If you notice the first patch was a multiplayer hotfix. You'd think that since singleplayer has so many problems that that would be their first concern.

If I were to call MP the tip of the Total War iceberg I would be guilty of overstating my case. MP folks are vocal and, in forums at least, apparently numerous. But they represent a tiny fraction of Total War sales. Most buyers don't bother to go to forums and talk about games, prefering to spend that time actually playing them!

Be warned that someone will come in here soon and dispute this but don't you believe 'em!