Has anyone been to totalwar.com recently

[Old Celt]

I posted the following last week at the "official" website in response to a thread about the save game bug and the mods squelching any effort to receive a response from CA on what they intend to do about it:

(posted on Totalwar.com, 3/24)

"Continuing to push limits of Mod patience and jabs at CA will only cause this thread to be closed."

Just for the record, so it's clear: do you have an official policy stating no criticism, no matter how valid will be tolerated of the CA work effort, and particularly criticism directed toward the existence of bugs?

I post on several other RTW boards, and this one by far seems the most closed to speech which is tolerated and even encouraged elsewhere. Like many other concerned people, I paid for the product, and when I discover a major flaw in it, expecting an explanation for how the manufacturer will put it right is fair and reasonable.

We have gotten no response from CA, Activision, Sega, or anyone else in an official capacity telling us what the intentions are with regard to this severe bug. Closing threads won't make the problem go away. It sure might make the customers go away. If you (mods for this board) think that meeting valid customer complaints with threats and arrogance are going to help, I think you are sadly mistaken. If this is how you treat your concerned fans, I'd hate to see what you do to try to woo new business. If you want my money in the future, you'd better treat me right!

(end of post)

Of course, all the substance of the post was completely edited out, in true Nazi style, and I was invited to post elsewhere. So I am exercising that option here. All I want is for CA, Sega, or Activision to answer this complaint in a meaningful way. I've never seen this type of customer service, with the exception of a rundown bowling alley. Is it just a culture thing? Do British companies in general have the attitude that they can ignore valid complaints with impunity?

[HeresiarchQin]

Maybe according to the Activision policies CA are not allowed to say anything about bugs and such, especially now, after the second and also the last patch is out. After all, if CA admitted the bug's existance, the official truth of "the game is quite seriously flawed and there will be no more patch" will surely hurt the game's sales in some way. I'm quite positive that not all the guys in CA are idiots or completely blind, at least a few of them must have already tracked down the cause of the bugs we reported so far, and may even have already made some hot-fixes in their hard drive. Unfortunately enough, they cannot afford the consequences which will come if they release those mini-patches, after all CA isn't some very big and rich company like Blizzard and Id. Definetly not Micro$oft. :P

Maybe it's actually a good thing that they are not allowed to make a 1.3 patch, until the XPack comes out, because more bugs can be reported/fixed during this long time period...well, if they did release the 1.3 patch 2 weeks ago, then today we may be crying out "WE NEED 1.4 TO FIX THE BROKEN CHARGE BONUS!!!"

[demon rob]

after all CA isn't some very big and rich company like Blizzard and Id. Definetly not Micro$oft. :P

Actually they are a big and rich company - they are now Sega.

[Bhruic]

I've run into this kind of situation before, with another game. Basically, it became a big game of "pass the buck". No one wanted to take responsibility for things. I ended up doing a lot of patching on the game myself.

The reality of the current situation is likely that CA won't do another patch unless they are funded, and Activision isn't going to fund another patch, especially since they've effectively lost CA. Sad for the end customers, but, then, very few companies actually care about us to begin with.

Bh

[Turbo]

Old Celt,

Welcome to the world of CA customer support or lack thereof. It is amazing to see how completely CA has turned their back on their loyal core customers. I am convinced that we, the current core customers are less and less strategic to CA as they move resources to console games.

[Old Celt]

Turbo,

Yes, I think you are quite right. My assumption is we shall just have to pay for this to be fixed (hopefully) in the expansion, maybe in 2007, if history shows any trends :(

I must apologize to you personally, Turbo. I remember some heated debates in which I took CA's side in the past against you. It seems my defense was ill-advised, as doing the right thing is definitely not on the CA/Activision/Sega agenda, with regard to proper support. You were right, I was wrong.

[Benny Moore]

Just to make this absolutely clear to me, tell me; they banned you?

[Turbo]

Turbo,

Yes, I think you are quite right. My assumption is we shall just have to pay for this to be fixed (hopefully) in the expansion, maybe in 2007, if history shows any trends :(

I must apologize to you personally, Turbo. I remember some heated debates in which I took CA's side in the past against you. It seems my defense was ill-advised, as doing the right thing is definitely not on the CA/Activision/Sega agenda, with regard to proper support. You were right, I was wrong.

No problem Old Celt. I wish you had been right about CA supporting this product. I certainly have no satisfaction about right.

[Oaty]

Old Celt,

Welcome to the world of CA customer support or lack thereof. It is amazing to see how completely CA has turned their back on their loyal core customers. I am convinced that we, the current core customers are less and less strategic to CA as they move resources to console games.

I hate to tell you but in business terms I'm almost sure that means CA actually has more resources. Both in resources and manpower. There programmers/ graphic designers and other categories have downtime wich means pay for no work. With multiple projects this reduces downtime for a group. This makes an employee have a bigger bang for the buck.

As far as being delayed. If they released an exp pack in June the gamers would be paying 30-40bucks for it. If it was released in December they could sell the expansion pack for 30-40 bucks. So doing the math the sooner they sell an exp pack, the sooner they can go onto another project and make more money. The difference in time is the means of the quality of the expansion pack, the more enjoyable the more they secure there future projects.

As far as the bug, be tactful and respectful in the e-mails. As dirty mail will just get deleted but an e-mail that states the problem and your disgust is more likely to be more appealing. Also do'nt request a patch or a response on thier plans from the bug.

The most tactical way I see to do this is spam them in a nice way. First start a thread on the siege bug petition.

Now tell everyone to title thier e-mails

RTW A.I. siege lifting bug

In the text write something like this but tell them to contain the exact words you widh the text to contain

The A.I.'s abilties are greatly reduced since the 1.2 patch and GREATLY reduces the challeng of gameplay

Short simple but gets to the point without implying any demands

What this also does is it does not flood them with various e-mails. Now more than likely all e-mails will get filtered due to the title..... but hopefully counted and will be much easier for them to handle.

Also request that noone sends more than 1 e-mail because they may also record adresses from, do not be a spamming idiot and just send them 1 e-mail as to be as respectable about this as possible.

[Old Celt]

Qvintvs,

No they did not ban me, they simply said that if I didn't like the way they ran things, I should post on other boards. Since they edited nearly all of the content from my post, it was impossible for anyone reading the edited version to even know what it was about.

@ Oaty:

I have been more respectful of the company, than they have been to me, by far. A simple question of a flawed product and what they intend to do about it deserves the courtesy of a MEANINGFUL response. If nothing can be done because Activision has the football, then just say so!

I know CA staff read the posts here. So, I must reach the conclusion that they tacitly approve of the silent treatment the customers are receiving in response to legitimate queries about what the company intends to do about this most serious of all discovered bugs in their product.

[SpencerH]

Old Celt,
I am convinced that we, the current core customers are less and less strategic to CA as they move resources to console games.

This makes no sense. SEGA has stated more than once that they purchased CA in order to move into PC gaming. I believe that to be true since SEGA has no need to buy a company that is making its first console game.

The question of who are now the "core-customers" is a separate issue. In that regard, I've seen no evidence from the comments made by CA employees that the players who played STW and MTW continue to be the "core-customers". CA employees pay lip-service to that idea, but despite the (often abusive) denials, it looks as if RTW (and possibly the next TW game) is targeted toward the much more numerous RTS crowd.

[Turbo]

SpencerH,

You don't think that consoles is the new direction for CA? Sega buys CA and boom, a console game is already in the works. Spartan Total War.

Regardless, the point I am trying to make is that the current core users are no longer strategic to CA. Whether they are focusing more on RTS or consoles is a moot point.

[SpencerH]

SpencerH,

You don't think that consoles is the new direction for CA? Sega buys CA and boom, a console game is already in the works. Spartan Total War.

The console has to have been "in the works" for years. It may have been a consideration in SEGA's decision but I believe them when they say they bought CA for the PC market.

Regardless, the point I am trying to make is that the current core users are no longer strategic to CA. Whether they are focusing more on RTS or consoles is a moot point.

That may be true, and time will tell. I'm hopefully optimistic that SEGA will allow CA the time and resources to actually finish the expansion prior to its release (unlike RTW itself). SEGA may also allow a 3rd patch. If they read whats happening at these sites they may demand one! That may be unlikely, but possible if one considers that SEGA may wish to end the "bad publicity" we generate over the unfinished nature of RTW.

[Old Celt]

I will only wait so long for Sega/CA to give the courtesy of a reply on the save game/reload bug. If they will not address the issue in a civil way, then I will write some e-mails describing the problem in detail, and how to reproduce it to some contacts I have at "a major pc gaming media outlet". Then, Sega/CA can have the inestimable pleasure of dealing with the attendant loss of credibility and future sales for their product.

The bottom line is: they sold something that was broken to their customers. The right thing to do is to fix any serious or critical bugs immediately, and at no cost to customers, just as Ford will fix my vehicle for free if it is shown to have a manufacturer's defect. It would be unreasonable to demand a fix for every imperfection observed in the game. It is however, perfectly reasonable to expect prompt support for serious and/or critical bugs which have been proven to exist.

[Turbo]

I will only wait so long for Sega/CA to give the courtesy of a reply on the save game/reload bug. If they will not address the issue in a civil way, then I will write some e-mails describing the problem in detail, and how to reproduce it to some contacts I have at "a major pc gaming media outlet". Then, Sega/CA can have the inestimable pleasure of dealing with the attendant loss of credibility and future sales for their product.

The bottom line is: they sold something that was broken to their customers. The right thing to do is to fix any serious or critical bugs immediately, and at no cost to customers, just as Ford will fix my vehicle for free if it is shown to have a manufacturer's defect. It would be unreasonable to demand a fix for every imperfection observed in the game. It is however, perfectly reasonable to expect prompt support for serious and/or critical bugs which have been proven to exist.

Actually I was thinking on the same lines. I am going to be sending emails to Computer Gaming World and the other magazine in the hopes that I can raise the lack of support with them. I'll post the editor email addresses for other fed up users.

[screwtype]

Do British companies in general have the attitude that they can ignore valid complaints with impunity?

I'll probably get flamed for this, but British companies do have some odd ways of doing business.

I recently went to the website of a British coy to buy a product, only to find a message which explained that everyone had gone on holiday for a couple of weeks and I would have to return later. This is not the first time this has happened to me with a Brit coy.

I find it pretty incredible that *everyone* at a company would have to go on holiday at the same time. A small owner-operated business, sure, but not a company with a number of employees. Sheesh, the least they could do was leave someone behind to keep processing orders while the rest were away!

There are also a lot of Brit companies that won't do business with you if you live overseas. I guess they're worried about making more money than they can handle or something.

[Puzz3D]

Old Celt,

I was wondering what awful thing you said in the .com post that got you chastised and your entire post edited out.

I don't know where the post is, but apparently the SEGA rep said that patching RTW is CA's decision. The problem for CA must be whether or not to take the time out of the schedule to do another patch. CA has always followed a strategy of one major patch per release, and they try to catch all the major bugs in that one patch. However, RTW was released with a huge number of problems, and that overwhelmed the v1.2 patch effort so that some things were not caught such as the loadgame/siege problem which I suspect is just the tip of an iceberg of a problem with savegames.

CA is well aware of the loadgame/siege problem, but I've seen them follow a policy of no comment on outstanding bugs for four years. CA uses the core customer base to help identify bugs, but they don't answer to that base or even have a dialog with it. This is why you are allowed to report a bug at .com, but not allowed to ask if it will be fixed. If CA admits it's not going to be fixed or it has to wait for the add-on to be addressed, that's bad for marketing. Practically all the responses to criticism I see made by CA are damage control to minimize any negative impact on sales.

I can tell you that the Total War customer base that has been around here for four years is decimated. Good graphics has replaced good gameplay as the main selling point which makes gameplay less important in the scheme of things. All the people who I regularly played Total War with online for years have left for other games.

[Jambo]

Yep Yuuki, pretty much sums up my experience since STW too! :|

Although I would say that both earlier games had the advantage of being smaller and less advanced projects. The bigger and bolder the project, the more likely the occurrence and prevalence of big bad bugs.

I had hoped that with the increasingly bolder projects, CA would lay aside their standard and rather mean 1-2 patch policy per release and adopt a patching policy more befitting the current project's needs. It seems that while the games are evolving at a staggering pace and with an increasing complexity, the level of customer support remains rooted in the past.

Sooner or later even CA will realise that there has to be careful balance maintained between both to be able to sustain a company with a satisfied customer base. Like Yuuki, I know many players of the older Total War titles that haven't yet purchased Rome or have become so disenchanted with the level of customer support for Rome, that the purchase of future TW titles will depend more heavily on the company intentions for post-release support rather than the titles themselves.

[The Storyteller]

British companies are funny things. I wrote this about British service a couple of years ago.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/birmingham/stud...06/phono.shtml

[AussieGiant]

Having found this Forum and the other at .COM over 2 years ago, it is clear from observation that the CA guys use the .COM forum as a passive information gathering device.

Any bug comment is a "no win" situation for them.

It is either going to happen or not and that has everything to do with the financial situation and not what the "hard core" board members want.

[Old Celt]

Well it is expected that companies need and want to make money. But unless you plan only for short term gain, you must build both quality products AND a reputation for good service. That's the reason Sears has done so well with Craftsman tools: they are top quality AND they are guaranteed for life. I personally witnessed an 84 year old man return a Craftsman socket that had split AFTER 62 YEARS OF SERVICE!! Sears didn't make any money on that exchange, but they built their reputation and word got around that they were steadfast behind their products. The result? Much more business because of dependability.

This GOTY business and such will be nothing more than "a flash in the pan" if word gets round that CA won't support their product and fix their obvious screwups. Yeah, it will cost them money, but that's what happens when you make mistakes and go to production that way. The fact is CA now has Sega and all their millions behind them, so there is no longer any excuse to cry poor as a reason to not hot patch the save game problem. Other, lesser companies correctly support their products, CA can do the same.

I think in some regards, the critical acclaim RTW has received from the usual media sources for game reviews is a pyrrhic victory. I would be surprised if any money in profit has actually been made for RTW when you consider how hideously over budget it must have been, given it was over 18 months late to production. Sega just needs to understand that they wouldn't be "throwing good money after bad" to finance an immediate effort to patch the game NOW, and thereby get back in the good graces of hard core players, and repair the damage to CA's reputation in the process.