Formation mod

[The_Mark]

So, I began to do the formation mod..

The basic idea is to create realistic and functioning (within AI limits) formations for different types of armies. The formations can be used by both AI and player, this is to add some variation to battles, where AI had always lined up in that single useless line.

Here's a screenie of the new Roman quincunx formation.



Any comments, suggestions and feedback will be welcome.

[Myrddraal]

Isn't it spelt: quincunx?

Good stuff, What other formations do you plan on doing, will they all be for the Romans??

[Epistolary Richard]

This I like!

(especially the checkerboard)

As someone who doesn't use any of the existing formations and has to set up his troops individually at the start of each battle, more formations would be definitely appreciated.

That being said, I personally tend to use the same formation battle after battle for a particular faction so anything that makes defining a custom formation easier would be a must for me, whether it be a fancy graphical interface or excel macro or just a simple tutorial posted on the boards.

Keep it up!

[The_Mark]

Isn't it spelt: quincunx?

Thanks, I'll fix that.

As for the other formations, I'll try to do lots of them, few for each army type, but I doubt I can think enough of them (That's why I posted a topic at the colosseum, the "historical formations". It slipped to the abyss of second page soon after. ), so if you have a formation on hand, please, share it.

That being said, I personally tend to use the same formation battle after battle for a particular faction so anything that makes defining a custom formation easier would be a must for me, whether it be a fancy graphical interface or excel macro or just a simple tutorial posted on the boards.

It's quite simple to make them (except the quincunx), just have a look at descr_ai_formations, format is quite simple (although it takes years to master ... not.)

[Alexander the Pretty Good]

Post in the Monastery for the history buffs, mate.

Looks good.

[Rodion Romanovich]

Thanks, I'll fix that.

As for the other formations, I'll try to do lots of them, few for each army type, but I doubt I can think enough of them (That's why I posted a topic at the colosseum, the "historical formations". It slipped to the abyss of second page soon after. ), so if you have a formation on hand, please, share it.



It's quite simple to make them (except the quincunx), just have a look at descr_ai_formations, format is quite simple (although it takes years to master ... not.)

Some formations I'd love to see:

- single line with heaviest troops on flanks and lighter troops in the middle.
- single line with heaviest troops on flanks but when you drag with rmb down and it draws up the 2 units at the flanks should keep their formation depth and the middle troops should instead be drawn thinner as you drag and increase the width of the line.

[The_Mark]

Post in the Monastery for the history buffs, mate.

Thanks, will do.

Some formations I'd love to see:

- single line with heaviest troops on flanks and lighter troops in the middle.

The formation can (and will) be done, although I'd add a small reserve behind the center.

- single line with heaviest troops on flanks but when you drag with rmb down and it draws up the 2 units at the flanks should keep their formation depth and the middle troops should instead be drawn thinner as you drag and increase the width of the line.

I haven't tried to do the group formations yet, but I doubt that it can be so that the flank troops maintain their depth.

Thanks for the formation, keep posting 'em!

[The_Doctor]

I thought that formation was called the triplex acies. I have never of a quincunx.

[The_Mark]

I thought that formation was called the triplex acies. I have never of a quincunx.

Yes, quincunx is the modern term, and I think triplex acies was the Roman name for it.

And here's another screen of cuincunx/triplex acies:


And two other formations, used by mixed heavy/light infantry, demonstrated by celts:



The Britons are deployed as: First a skirmish screen, followed by line of light infantry, backed up by the heavies. Cavalry on flanks, general behind.

The Gauls have also a skirmish screen, followed by a line of light infantry, but heavy infantry is split between the flanks and center. Cav is again on the flanks and general is behind center.

Some formations I'd love to see:

- single line with heaviest troops on flanks and lighter troops in the middle.

Almost forgot.. That formation is already in vanilla, but it doesn't work without disabling the standard formation. It is actually a pretty good formation, and it will be included in this pack, although it may be modified a bit.

[bouis]

Wonderful. You you mind if this is used by other mods? I have a few in mind :)

[bouis]

Oh btw here's one I did (well, modified from the one included in RTR). It's not as good as yours with regard to the checkerboard formation but I did manage to force the auxilia units to the side which I thought was something of an accomplishment. If you'd like to know how I did it I can send you the file and an explanation.

[The_Mark]

No I don't mind (As long as I get the credit ), but it's still in the making. Actually formations will probably work better with mods that slow down battle speed, in vanilla all light barbarians rout on contact. That's not good for formations, you know.

[The_Mark]

Thanks, I'd be pleased if you sent that, although my formation should support auxilia troops, but I haven't tested it yet. And if you want to know how I did the quincunx I'll send it to you.

[Rodion Romanovich]

Almost forgot.. That formation is already in vanilla, but it doesn't work without disabling the standard formation. It is actually a pretty good formation, and it will be included in this pack, although it may be modified a bit.

How? I've never seen it. Usually heavy troops end up on either of the flanks when I pick single or single sorted line. Are you referring to any other group formation than those?

[Rodion Romanovich]

What are those troops you've got in the bottom right corner, just to the left of those equites? I've never seen them in R:TW - are they modded units?

[Rodion Romanovich]

Oops, didn't know this didn't post in my last post, but the last past was in reply to #11.

[The_Mark]

How? I've never seen it. Usually heavy troops end up on either of the flanks when I pick single or single sorted line. Are you referring to any other group formation than those?

Oh.. You were talking about group formations as opposed to army formations.. This mod is about army formations, not group ones. The "heavies on the flanks"-formation is used by AI as an assault formation, when standard line is disabled. One can mod the group formations (in descr_formations.txt), and they are quite similar to army formations, but you'd have to override one of them in order to get a "heavies on the flanks" as a group formation.

What are those troops you've got in the bottom right corner, just to the left of those equites? I've never seen them in R:TW - are they modded units?

They are from the RTR mod, some kind of auxilia I presume.

[bouis]

They're various auxilia units; some are from RTR and some are from Roma Mod.

On the topic of formations, though, I think that the width of individual units has to be taken into formation. A three-man-deep, skirmisher spaced, 160 man formation just does not work in the game. The guys won't skirmish; they'll pivot around until someone runs over them.

So unit depth as well as unit size need to be considered when making formations. 'Cause if they're spaced properly in one unit size they won't be in the others and so forth.

[The_Mark]

On the topic of formations, though, I think that the width of individual units has to be taken into formation. A three-man-deep, skirmisher spaced, 160 man formation just does not work in the game. The guys won't skirmish; they'll pivot around until someone runs over them.

So unit depth as well as unit size need to be considered when making formations. 'Cause if they're spaced properly in one unit size they won't be in the others and so forth.

Unfortunately, there's little that can be done; at least with formations, as unit depth can't be set with formations; it has to be done in EDU, according to unit scale. That'd be much easier (and more functional) than to make formations based on unit scale. e.g. my triplex acies has currently 35 different, almost individually configured blocks, so one could change a couple of figures in EDU or write a new quincunx..

Personally, I'd go for the EDU, considering that unit depth can't be set in DFAI.

[bouis]

What I meant was that it's a good idea to keep the depth and unit size in mind when you're making the formations. I think making units deeper is a good idea, but if you don't want to do that as part of your mod you could you could specify recommended depth and unit size; or you could do two sets, one for huge with deeper formations and one for large with regular depth; or four, whatever you feel like doing.

[Kraxis]

You could also make the Scipio Africanus version of Triplex Acies. With lanes rather than a checkerboard.

You could create a phalanx formation of en enchelon one way or the other where each phalanx unit protects the next by virtue of its pikes/spears. That would grant the phalanx armies a great versatility when facing melee strong enemies as it would present their cavalry with a great opening. If the enemy attacks the line head on they will end up in an echelon themselves and the the cavalry will easily sweep them from the side that is farthest back (from the phalanx position). Any melee troops should be postitione right behind the phalanx units. This formation was used at Issus by Alexander.

[The_Mark]

What I meant was that it's a good idea to keep the depth and unit size in mind when you're making the formations. I think making units deeper is a good idea, but if you don't want to do that as part of your mod you could you could specify recommended depth and unit size; or you could do two sets, one for huge with deeper formations and one for large with regular depth; or four, whatever you feel like doing.

Yes, I was a bit worried by huge/small settings on the formations, particularly on the quincunx. Huge settings do tend to strech it quite wide. Not a good thing when facing cataphracts. One way of countering this would be make a huge variant with two units placed as one deeper block, but well, I doubt that ancient Romans themselves didn't put their maniples into only 4 man deep formations?

I'd still go for editing the EDU, or giving a recommended unit scale.

You could also make the Scipio Africanus version of Triplex Acies. With lanes rather than a checkerboard.

Umm.. Would that be like:

|||..|||..||| hastati
|||..|||..||| principes
|||..|||..||| triarii

. =empty

You could create a phalanx formation of en enchelon one way or the other where each phalanx unit protects the next by virtue of its pikes/spears. That would grant the phalanx armies a great versatility when facing melee strong enemies as it would present their cavalry with a great opening. If the enemy attacks the line head on they will end up in an echelon themselves and the the cavalry will easily sweep them from the side that is farthest back (from the phalanx position). Any melee troops should be postitione right behind the phalanx units. This formation was used at Issus by Alexander.

And by Philip against the Greeks in Chaeronea, as in:

...../|||||
.../ .......|||
./.............|||
/..................|||
..................................cavalry

/ = skrimishers, light inf
||| = phalanx

Yes, I am going to do that, but I doubt that AI can handle it. I hope so. Can it be used defensively? Then AI would keep it's form but the player might easily circle around to the lightly protected side of the phalanx.

[Sundjata Keita]

You seem to be doing rarther well at making these formations so I wonder if I can ask you a favour, could you do a formation for the Zulu mod. We need a bull-horn formation doing. Like the one in this picture



The chest and loins need to be all infantry, the heaviest infantry at the back, the horns need to be more infantry and all missile infantry need to be just infront of the chest in a line. The main body of the formation should be as depicted a two unit width.

This is only a request and you can turn it down but there is no rush so if you ever get any free time I would be very gratefull if you could do this.

Thanks,

Sundjata Keita

[The_Mark]

No problem, I can do that. Just... I don't know.. if.. well... What kind of infantry you need in those horns

I'll PM it to you when it's done. Just tell me what you need.

[Kraxis]

Yes the Africanus version was 'just' the principes right behind the hastati (and the triarii needed not be moved). The lanes themselves were filled with velites. So perhaps the first line could have skirmishers fill up the spaces?

And yes that was pretty much the formation I hoped for with the phalanx.
While we can 'easily' flank it, so can we with pretty much every formation out there. This one at least protects one side and has the other fairly well protected. And if there is cavalry it too will protect the vulnerable open side as it would take the enemy in the flank if they tried anything.

[Laridus Konivaich]

Is there a tutorial for making new formations anywhere? I think that quite a few people would aprreciate a link. Also, has anyone made a formation for the unit to form a circle, all facing outwards. If not, how hard would it be to make one?

[Epistolary Richard]

This thread is about army formations, as in skirmishers at the front, cavalry at the back, rather than unit formations (such as square, wedge, phalanx etc.).

Unit formations are hard-coded, however Duke John discovered a method of adapting the horde formation, which you can find here. This should allow you to create a circle unit formation (at the expense of the horde formation), but I don't know if it will allow you to have them all face outwards.

Update: There's also The_Mark's original thread where he raised the idea. While it doesn't include a tutorial per se it does include useful information if you want to get started. It was on the Colosseum and can be found here.

[Epistolary Richard]

No problem, I can do that. Just... I don't know.. if.. well... What kind of infantry you need in those horns

Probably the same kind of infantry that makes up the chest. AFAIK there wasn't a great deal of specialisation between the four warbands.

Someone from the mod can correct me if I'm wrong but I would think that the particular 'horn' shape on that diagram is intended to be indicative of the flanking movement of the warbands. I don't think they're anticipating that you can actually make a unit into a horn shape

[The_Mark]

Someone from the mod can correct me if I'm wrong but I would think that the particular 'horn' shape on that diagram is intended to be indicative of the flanking movement of the warbands. I don't think they're anticipating that you can actually make a unit into a horn shape

Figured that much out

Actually the bull horn-formation looks a bit like this at the moment:

######..................######
######..................######
¤¤¤¤¤¤¤.^^^^^^^^¤¤¤¤¤¤¤
............¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤..........
............¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤..........
............##########...

#=heavy inf
¤=light inf
^=skirmish

The horns start a bit more back than in the "diagram". The formation has been sent to Sundjata Keita for testing, I let him release the screens when he's ready.

Is there a tutorial for making new formations anywhere? I think that quite a few people would aprreciate a link. Also, has anyone made a formation for the unit to form a circle, all facing outwards. If not, how hard would it be to make one?

What Richard said.

[The_Mark]

Yes the Africanus version was 'just' the principes right behind the hastati (and the triarii needed not be moved). The lanes themselves were filled with velites. So perhaps the first line could have skirmishers fill up the spaces?

Thanks, I'll include it in the mod.

And yes that was pretty much the formation I hoped for with the phalanx.
While we can 'easily' flank it, so can we with pretty much every formation out there. This one at least protects one side and has the other fairly well protected. And if there is cavalry it too will protect the vulnerable open side as it would take the enemy in the flank if they tried anything.

If cav would be massed on the protected flank, with skirmishers/light inf covering the other and a phalanx/heavy inf reserve behind them, wouldn't that be quite good?