Formation mod

[Rodion Romanovich]

Oops, didn't know this didn't post in my last post, but the last past was in reply to #11.

[The_Mark]

How? I've never seen it. Usually heavy troops end up on either of the flanks when I pick single or single sorted line. Are you referring to any other group formation than those?

Oh.. You were talking about group formations as opposed to army formations.. This mod is about army formations, not group ones. The "heavies on the flanks"-formation is used by AI as an assault formation, when standard line is disabled. One can mod the group formations (in descr_formations.txt), and they are quite similar to army formations, but you'd have to override one of them in order to get a "heavies on the flanks" as a group formation.

What are those troops you've got in the bottom right corner, just to the left of those equites? I've never seen them in R:TW - are they modded units?

They are from the RTR mod, some kind of auxilia I presume.

[bouis]

They're various auxilia units; some are from RTR and some are from Roma Mod.

On the topic of formations, though, I think that the width of individual units has to be taken into formation. A three-man-deep, skirmisher spaced, 160 man formation just does not work in the game. The guys won't skirmish; they'll pivot around until someone runs over them.

So unit depth as well as unit size need to be considered when making formations. 'Cause if they're spaced properly in one unit size they won't be in the others and so forth.

[The_Mark]

On the topic of formations, though, I think that the width of individual units has to be taken into formation. A three-man-deep, skirmisher spaced, 160 man formation just does not work in the game. The guys won't skirmish; they'll pivot around until someone runs over them.

So unit depth as well as unit size need to be considered when making formations. 'Cause if they're spaced properly in one unit size they won't be in the others and so forth.

Unfortunately, there's little that can be done; at least with formations, as unit depth can't be set with formations; it has to be done in EDU, according to unit scale. That'd be much easier (and more functional) than to make formations based on unit scale. e.g. my triplex acies has currently 35 different, almost individually configured blocks, so one could change a couple of figures in EDU or write a new quincunx..

Personally, I'd go for the EDU, considering that unit depth can't be set in DFAI.

[bouis]

What I meant was that it's a good idea to keep the depth and unit size in mind when you're making the formations. I think making units deeper is a good idea, but if you don't want to do that as part of your mod you could you could specify recommended depth and unit size; or you could do two sets, one for huge with deeper formations and one for large with regular depth; or four, whatever you feel like doing.

[Kraxis]

You could also make the Scipio Africanus version of Triplex Acies. With lanes rather than a checkerboard.

You could create a phalanx formation of en enchelon one way or the other where each phalanx unit protects the next by virtue of its pikes/spears. That would grant the phalanx armies a great versatility when facing melee strong enemies as it would present their cavalry with a great opening. If the enemy attacks the line head on they will end up in an echelon themselves and the the cavalry will easily sweep them from the side that is farthest back (from the phalanx position). Any melee troops should be postitione right behind the phalanx units. This formation was used at Issus by Alexander.

[The_Mark]

What I meant was that it's a good idea to keep the depth and unit size in mind when you're making the formations. I think making units deeper is a good idea, but if you don't want to do that as part of your mod you could you could specify recommended depth and unit size; or you could do two sets, one for huge with deeper formations and one for large with regular depth; or four, whatever you feel like doing.

Yes, I was a bit worried by huge/small settings on the formations, particularly on the quincunx. Huge settings do tend to strech it quite wide. Not a good thing when facing cataphracts. One way of countering this would be make a huge variant with two units placed as one deeper block, but well, I doubt that ancient Romans themselves didn't put their maniples into only 4 man deep formations?

I'd still go for editing the EDU, or giving a recommended unit scale.

You could also make the Scipio Africanus version of Triplex Acies. With lanes rather than a checkerboard.

Umm.. Would that be like:

|||..|||..||| hastati
|||..|||..||| principes
|||..|||..||| triarii

. =empty

You could create a phalanx formation of en enchelon one way or the other where each phalanx unit protects the next by virtue of its pikes/spears. That would grant the phalanx armies a great versatility when facing melee strong enemies as it would present their cavalry with a great opening. If the enemy attacks the line head on they will end up in an echelon themselves and the the cavalry will easily sweep them from the side that is farthest back (from the phalanx position). Any melee troops should be postitione right behind the phalanx units. This formation was used at Issus by Alexander.

And by Philip against the Greeks in Chaeronea, as in:

...../|||||
.../ .......|||
./.............|||
/..................|||
..................................cavalry

/ = skrimishers, light inf
||| = phalanx

Yes, I am going to do that, but I doubt that AI can handle it. I hope so. Can it be used defensively? Then AI would keep it's form but the player might easily circle around to the lightly protected side of the phalanx.

[Sundjata Keita]

You seem to be doing rarther well at making these formations so I wonder if I can ask you a favour, could you do a formation for the Zulu mod. We need a bull-horn formation doing. Like the one in this picture



The chest and loins need to be all infantry, the heaviest infantry at the back, the horns need to be more infantry and all missile infantry need to be just infront of the chest in a line. The main body of the formation should be as depicted a two unit width.

This is only a request and you can turn it down but there is no rush so if you ever get any free time I would be very gratefull if you could do this.

Thanks,

Sundjata Keita

[Rodion Romanovich]

Oh.. You were talking about group formations as opposed to army formations.. This mod is about army formations, not group ones. The "heavies on the flanks"-formation is used by AI as an assault formation, when standard line is disabled. One can mod the group formations (in descr_formations.txt), and they are quite similar to army formations, but you'd have to override one of them in order to get a "heavies on the flanks" as a group formation.

Ok, I think I've found a .txt file for that (descr_formations.txt or something), but I have NO idea how to make a formation for heavy infs on flanks and light in the middle. I'd like to override the formation called single sorted line with my formation.

I'd be really thankful if someone could help me with this...

[The_Mark]

Ok, I think I've found a .txt file for that (descr_formations.txt or something), but I have NO idea how to make a formation for heavy infs on flanks and light in the middle. I'd like to override the formation called single sorted line with my formation.

Yes, descr_formations.txt is the group formations, descr_formations_ai.txt is the army formations.

Find this line in descr_formations:
begin_formation ordered_single_line

Block 0 is the center block, 1 is right of center, 2 is left. Just change the unit types to the order you want, e.g. in block 1 add a line

unit_type heavy infantry 1.0

That will assign heavy infantry to block 1, to right of center. Remove the light and missile/skirmish unit type lines from block 1 and only heavy inf will get assigned to block 1.

[Rodion Romanovich]

Yes, descr_formations.txt is the group formations, descr_formations_ai.txt is the army formations.

Find this line in descr_formations:
begin_formation ordered_single_line

Block 0 is the center block, 1 is right of center, 2 is left. Just change the unit types to the order you want, e.g. in block 1 add a line

unit_type heavy infantry 1.0

That will assign heavy infantry to block 1, to right of center. Remove the light and missile/skirmish unit type lines from block 1 and only heavy inf will get assigned to block 1.

Thanks a lot! Now that I saw how easy some parts of modding are, I actually got taste for modding myself. I'm starting a new mod and one of it's aims is to combine several single-feature mods into one big, nice mod where all these single-feature mods are made compatible with each other and easier for the user to install. Info about the mod is posted here: https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=45319

As I said in that post, I like your formation mod idea and if you're interested I'd like to include your work in that mod. You will of course get all the credits for the formations part of the mod. If you're interested, please post a reply in that thread.

[Kraxis]

Too late I see as you are off to EB.

But maybe these experiences can help you in EB? Try it out here where we can help you set it up properly and then add it to EB... I think that is a great compromise. We get what we want and EB get what it wants. What do you say?

Anyway on a technical point.
The echelon doesn't work on offense but it does on the defense? Good enough for me, I didn't expect it to work perfectly with the AI. Maybe it is better with the player? Well, since the formations can be set to either defence, offense or both I think it is perfectly ok to remove the offense tag and leave it be at defence.

Oh and a point, maybe set the phalanx depth a bit lower. That echelon on defence was in for a bad beating as the Roman formation outstreched it by a whole unit on the forward part. Not good as that gives the Romans a great advantage. The other phalanxes were not into the battle yet but the first one would be outflanked.

Of course this brings in the hypothetical wedge formation, where we eliminate the weak right flank alltogether.
Such a formation would be close to unflankable by anything other than cavalry, due to its depth and width.

[The_Mark]

Well, I'd like to do both, but I don't exactly have too much spare time, so there's going to be some prioritising.. We shall see..

The echelon phalanx does work on defense, what with AI still being bit dumb.

You are right about outstretching, but if there's some reserves on AI's right flank... And if the phalanx is shallowed, it'd essentially cease being an echelon, and this would also close the opening created for cav.

I had a wedge phalanx in my mind, and I might do it later.. With cavalry support that *could* be something that players *might* have to outthink, something I'd like to see much more often.