I figured you guys would want to see this...

[khelvan]

...since I posted it elsewhere:

The system we are currently working toward for the Romans looks something like this:

Rome will have two options available - first, a "support" option where Rome enlists support from local chiefs, and has access to a subset of local units, fighting in the native fashion with native equipment. Second, a "Romanization" option where Rome begins to subvert the local people and culture. Romanization would only be available post-reforms, and only after "support" has been achieved. Romanization allows for the widespread recruiting of legions (though at the next city level than the one for the Italian peninsula), and various auxilia.

Each would have specific bonuses and weaknesses to reflect the effect on the local people and economy.

Auxilia will generally be available in specific areas. Generic spear auxilia will be available just about everywhere, but Iberian light cav auxilia will be available in Iberia and the Italian peninsula, and Numidian light cav auxilia will be available in Numidian Africa and Sicily. Gallic medium cav auxilia will be available in Gaul and northern Italy, and Germanic heavy cav auxilia will be available in Germanic tribal areas, the Italian peninsula, and Pannonia.

We are setting these recruitment areas because foreign warriors would travel toward Rome to find employment in the Roman legions, hence how our auxilia will generally be available both near Rome and in their native areas. While the auxilia were not professionalized until Augustus, this compromise is the best we can do until some way is found to link building and/or unit availability to a date.

Comments are welcome.

[GoreBag]

This would mean that the "support" option is available throughout the world, and not just on the Italian peninsula, then. In that case, how does one achieve "support"?

[khelvan]

Well, these are ways to describe the way in which the Roman faction governs conquered provinces. Each faction has its own method of dealing with conquered provinces - this is just an example for Rome.

So, you conquer the province, you build the correct building for "support," and you get the bonuses and the ability to recruit certain (native) units.

We may or may not have similar buildings for the Italian peninsula, I am not sure what we'll be doing about the Samnite, Apulian, Campanian, and other regional units there yet.

[Sarcasm]

This is extremely interesting to say the least. And it´s gonna mess my thread too!

Will be back with comments, after I digest this.

[Drag0nUL]

Great idea! Just two question: Will the 'romanisation' be mandatory or an option for the player? And after one province is romanised, what will happen to the units recruited in the 'support' phase? Will one have to disband them(since no possibility to retrain-like pre-marius legions in vanilla) or they could be 'upgraded' to auxilia(a better option in my opinion)?

[Ranika]

Units can't be upgraded, a limitation of RTW. Support to Romanized is an option. Support will be a province upgrade, Romanization will be an upgrade off of it after Marian reforms (so as to represent Romans essentially puppeting indigenous peoples, and slowly taking over their land through cultural in-roads, like Galatia, which was annexed after a Roman-installed king died; before that, Galatian armies, equipped as Galatians, were raised that fought in support of Rome).

[Furious Mental]

It sounds as though it will mandatory if you want to recruit legions. Will the legions recruited in the provinces be the same as those recruited in Italy?

[khelvan]

No, not all legions will be created equal. For the most part the changes will be cosmetic; perhaps a legion raised in the north will have furs for the cold. However, there may be a few surprises.

Take, for instance, the case of Deiotarus; when he fought for Rome against Mithrades, he raised two legions of Galatians. They were organized as any other legion, but they had Galatian equipment (oval shields, short Galatian slashing swords, Galatian javelins, and Galatian mail & helms).

[cunctator]

Sounds very good at first look. Great that you are now planning an open beta.

Many things are bound to the Marian reforms. Will you be able to modify the marian event to appear later in the campaign, more close to the historical date ? Or if it is triggered change the triggers to reflect the circumstances of the historic reforms ?

[khelvan]

We can't really change the Marian reforms, but we can't use anything else time-based to trigger events, so the Marian reforms are the only event that matters, at the moment.

It is tough, but we don't have a choice.

[The Stranger]

sounds good

[Lief]

Sounds great. But why are Iberian cavalry auxillia available in Italy? And if the Roman player decides to take over Sarmatia, will they be able to recruit steppe cavalry auxilia?

[Alexander the Pretty Good]

Whoa! June is too far away!

[Teleklos Archelaou]

Whoa! June is too far away!

I hear they (like every mod) are always open to talented skinners and modellers who would like to help advance the progress.

[khelvan]

Often, warriors would travel toward/to Rome for recruitment, so we have made some of these auxilia available in the Italian peninsula to reflect this.

[Alexander the Pretty Good]

I hear they (like every mod) are always open to talented skinners and modellers who would like to help advance the progress.

I hear they aren't interested in those who aren't skinners/modellers. I'm just a fan. Though I am trying to learn modelling... when I get around to it...

Go Europa Barbarorum!

[khelvan]

It isn't that we're not interested, it is that the reason the forums are closed is so that we can do work there, and not just have opinions. We still add a person here and there, who have particular skills (coding would be useful) or very strong knowledge in a particular area, but in general we're much less open to new members than in the past. Too much growth.

Still, please do send me info if you (anyone) would like to help. We always listen, at least.

[Divinus Arma]

No, not all legions will be created equal. For the most part the changes will be cosmetic; perhaps a legion raised in the north will have furs for the cold.

I think I suggested this a few months ago. Khelvan, you just made my day. After all since this is a homelands system, what is the difference between Romans wearing fur fighting in Egypt and Half naked Egyptian Axemen fighting in Briton?

By the way, the "support" and "romanization" system is a very good idea. It seems to address the issue of cultural and political integration over time.

Nice work as always. I continue to be surprised and delighted.

Warmest Regards

[jerby]

sounds great, it will give much variety to rome. but will Auxillia type warriors be recruitable by other factions, or is this a roman privalige?

[Furious Mental]

"After all since this is a homelands system, what is the difference between Romans wearing fur fighting in Egypt and Half naked Egyptian Axemen fighting in Briton?"

You could give them combat bonuses in snow or desert, respectively, to reflect the fact that wearing furs in the desert is silly, though it seems that the Celts were quite happy to fight half naked despite the chilly climate.

[Divinus Arma]

"After all since this is a homelands system, what is the difference between Romans wearing fur fighting in Egypt and Half naked Egyptian Axemen fighting in Briton?"

You could give them combat bonuses in snow or desert, respectively, to reflect the fact that wearing furs in the desert is silly, though it seems that the Celts were quite happy to fight half naked despite the chilly climate.

The point, my friend, is that units are being raised regionally based on Historical accuracy. Where the units end up is not the concern of history. I agree, fur in egypt IS silly. But then, the egyptians never conquered europe, did they? So, by rights, one could say that egyptians in Briton is also silly.

I only sought to touch on the fact that these units are built dependant on the area they were recruited from. Legionaries with fur should NEVER be raised anywhere except from where history points to their use. Thus, no fur in egypt.

I hope this clarifies my intentions.

Regards

[Ranika]

Celts did not fight half-naked in chilly weather most of the time. There are exceptions, but most of them wore cloaks to the battle itself, and discarded them right before the fight (others wore the cloaks during the fight). Most, however, including those that fought shirtless in warmer weather, would wear shirts, linen coats, etc., during the winter. They were not 'happy' to fight half-naked in the cold, most of the time, and those who were also had the benefit of living in that climate their whole lives, and would be used to the conditions more than a foreign invader.

As for fur on northern legions, it shouldn't be a problem. They can also be made to tire faster in deserts, as well as a bonus fighting in snow. That should be a fair, logical compromise. Plus, why would you be sending legions from northern Europe to fight in the deserts anyway? Why not raise legions from a more southern region, where you'd not get the fur-wearing legions? If all goes to plan, you should be able to raise northern legions out of necessity to fight northern enemies. Sure, you can send legions from the north into Africa and such, but it'll be made to be a bad decision.

[Divinus Arma]

I concur.

This point was raised in another thread. I had asked about the historical accuracy of legios with "warmer clothes" I.E. Fur or leggings, etc as well as the possibility of implementation. It turns out that the idea appears suitbale for the homelands system. However, some expressed dismay at the propostion because "romans wearing fur in egypt" is not historical. Of course, that argument runs contrary to the homelands system entirely. Historical accuracy will be correct in the beginning of the game in EB, though it becomes inevitable that history will eventually be replaced by fiction in the process of the expanionist based campaign. In order to be "truly historcial", the player would be unable to play and instead only watch. Thus and in conclusion, the homelands system is the greatest source of historcial accuracy, depth of emersion, contribution towards roleplaying experience, and superior gameplay. Thus again, fur on legions raised in europe = yay.

Regards

[khelvan]

Auxilia were a Roman invention. There may be something similar available for Carthage, but we'll see. Most factions will raise native units rather than "auxilia" in most cases.

[IrishMike]

This mod never ceases to amaze.

I love this ideal. Kinda has the feel of colonization, like the British Empire used.
Excellent ideal, as I found it rather silly that I could conquer any province at any location and if the tech requirements were there, I could pump out as many legions as I wanted. Didn't seem realistic at all.

[Ano2]

Superb idea, it really makes more sense than allowing Legions to be raised everywhere.

[Big_John]

hey khel, rtw doesn't have a system where new resources become availible in certain provinces at certain dates like mtw, does it?

[jerby]

will this take up one unit-slot or more? if it take more, I rather have more diversity in units than eye-candy, but I would love eather.

[khelvan]

We have 500 unit slots, and sharing a unit of the same name with a different skin with another faction doesn't take any unit spots. Believe me, you will see plenty of diversity.

Big John - I don't know, to be honest...I haven't seen it.

[Furious Mental]

I didn't say Celts fought half naked in chilly weather. I said they fought half naked in a chilly climate. There's a difference.