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Thread: Gun vs Katana
You'd have to be pretty darn strong to bend a katana with your bare hands, though they can be snapped very easily if they are lodged in wood and then twisted/bent with weight/force. They can also break very easily upon impact with another weapon if the angle is incorrect.
Note that the impressive strength lies primarily in the forging/folding of the steel. Many of the mock katanas that you can buy for $400-$1000 dollars here and there are forged, but not forged and folded. These katanas do not possess this impressive strength. Forged and folded blades are available, made for cutting, and run between $700-$5000 ($4000 and up for custom-designed blades).
Bugei makes some nice cutting blades: http://www.bugei.com
My Katana is of the very popular and widely available Golden Oriole style, but was made by Bugei, forged and folded, from Swedish powdered steel. I have done a bit of Tameshigiri with it and it cuts very nicely. Bugei does not normally make the Golden Oriole; someone special-ordered 30 of them and then didn't follow through, so Bugei made them publically available for $700 each. I snatched one up as the price was right (good cutting blades normally start around $1000). The difference between mine and the common Golden Oriole is that it is forged and folded SPS, whereas the common Paul Chen blades are forged 440 steel.
Do handle all blades with extreme care! One of my best friends came over after I'd gotten my blade and asked to inspect it. It was sitting on a stand on my fireplace mantle and I was in the process of moving, so there were boxes in front of it on the floor. My friend, a 2nd degree black belt in Shotokan karate and a brown belt in Uechi Ryu karate, all too reverently leaned over the boxes and took the sword down, grasping it by the saya (scabbard) only (without placing his thumb over the Tsuba (guard), which he should have done). I had been drawing with it a lot, so it no longer stuck firmly in the scabbard (which is desireable for a practical blade). He made the mistake of tipping it a little the wrong way, and it started to slide out. Appalled that he was about to drop the blade of his friend's katana, my buddy snatched the sliding blade with his bare hand--and proceeded to almost sever four fingers. Blood fountained everywhere; it was quite a mess. But, he did manage to prevent the sword from falling, which he proudly pointed out afterward (he is an extremist when it comes to custom and being martially "proper"). Fortunately his fingers healed up after a month or so, but keyboarding was a major pain for a while. Do be careful ... .
Note that the impressive strength lies primarily in the forging/folding of the steel. Many of the mock katanas that you can buy for $400-$1000 dollars here and there are forged, but not forged and folded. These katanas do not possess this impressive strength. Forged and folded blades are available, made for cutting, and run between $700-$5000 ($4000 and up for custom-designed blades).
Bugei makes some nice cutting blades: http://www.bugei.com
My Katana is of the very popular and widely available Golden Oriole style, but was made by Bugei, forged and folded, from Swedish powdered steel. I have done a bit of Tameshigiri with it and it cuts very nicely. Bugei does not normally make the Golden Oriole; someone special-ordered 30 of them and then didn't follow through, so Bugei made them publically available for $700 each. I snatched one up as the price was right (good cutting blades normally start around $1000). The difference between mine and the common Golden Oriole is that it is forged and folded SPS, whereas the common Paul Chen blades are forged 440 steel.
Do handle all blades with extreme care! One of my best friends came over after I'd gotten my blade and asked to inspect it. It was sitting on a stand on my fireplace mantle and I was in the process of moving, so there were boxes in front of it on the floor. My friend, a 2nd degree black belt in Shotokan karate and a brown belt in Uechi Ryu karate, all too reverently leaned over the boxes and took the sword down, grasping it by the saya (scabbard) only (without placing his thumb over the Tsuba (guard), which he should have done). I had been drawing with it a lot, so it no longer stuck firmly in the scabbard (which is desireable for a practical blade). He made the mistake of tipping it a little the wrong way, and it started to slide out. Appalled that he was about to drop the blade of his friend's katana, my buddy snatched the sliding blade with his bare hand--and proceeded to almost sever four fingers. Blood fountained everywhere; it was quite a mess. But, he did manage to prevent the sword from falling, which he proudly pointed out afterward (he is an extremist when it comes to custom and being martially "proper"). Fortunately his fingers healed up after a month or so, but keyboarding was a major pain for a while. Do be careful ... .
I saw a program on TV about professional japanese sword making and the guy that making them said "now you woudln't think this is possible with a sword *starts bending it*, but they are actually quite flexible". It didn't look very hard to do. I don't know why you can't do it with your sword. Maybe your is thicker or something.
It's really amazing how they use over 40 different types of stones to make them sharp. Very interesting what long tradition can accomplish over time without any real high tech.
BTW does Bugei have those nice "stick" like disguised swords? Forgot the name for them.
It's really amazing how they use over 40 different types of stones to make them sharp. Very interesting what long tradition can accomplish over time without any real high tech.
BTW does Bugei have those nice "stick" like disguised swords? Forgot the name for them.
Are you refering to shirasaya? Shirasaya are essentially blades that haven't been formally mounted. They are temporarily housed in a very plain wooden saya and fitted with a simple wooden handle (with no guard). I have always thought they looked cool, but they aren't meant to be used in this state. Shirasaya are simply a means of storing a blade until it can be fitted properly. Yes, Bugei can fit blades in shirasaya.
If you are refering to "sword canes" like the one that the TV character Zatoichi carries, then no, I don't think Bugei offers one (though you could probably talk them into making one as a custom order if you were willing to fork out between $3000-$5000).
An interesting point: I've read that it takes about 15 years of dedicated training in Japan to become officially certified to professionally fit blades. Obviously, this process takes place after a blade has been forged/folded and finished. The making of a "real" katana is truly an amazing process, and the result a remarkable work of art--"soul of the samurai," etc.
If you are refering to "sword canes" like the one that the TV character Zatoichi carries, then no, I don't think Bugei offers one (though you could probably talk them into making one as a custom order if you were willing to fork out between $3000-$5000).
An interesting point: I've read that it takes about 15 years of dedicated training in Japan to become officially certified to professionally fit blades. Obviously, this process takes place after a blade has been forged/folded and finished. The making of a "real" katana is truly an amazing process, and the result a remarkable work of art--"soul of the samurai," etc.
That video isn't really that amazing.
The rounds fired at it are lead, a very soft metal. You could cut through a bullet with your kitchen knives, even the butter knives. Don't believe me? Get some lead "sinkers" in the fishing section of your sporting goods store/sporting goods section of your department store. It'll take some work, but that's partly because you're not moving your knife at around 1200 feet per second (it's the same as moving the bullet that fast, in the end), the normal muzzle velocity of a 9mmP round.
The sword is also only being held at one end, which means it is free to flex when struck. If it were being held by a vice at the top, too, you might see it break... but probably not, because from that angle you're firing your round at 1-2 inches of high-grade steel. The round is going to ricochet, and it does--to both sides of the blade.
You put that sword in a vise at the top and bottom, and fire on it from the side. Then it'll be a relevant demonstration... except that steel plates thinner than a katana blade will stop a 9mmP round.
The rounds fired at it are lead, a very soft metal. You could cut through a bullet with your kitchen knives, even the butter knives. Don't believe me? Get some lead "sinkers" in the fishing section of your sporting goods store/sporting goods section of your department store. It'll take some work, but that's partly because you're not moving your knife at around 1200 feet per second (it's the same as moving the bullet that fast, in the end), the normal muzzle velocity of a 9mmP round.
The sword is also only being held at one end, which means it is free to flex when struck. If it were being held by a vice at the top, too, you might see it break... but probably not, because from that angle you're firing your round at 1-2 inches of high-grade steel. The round is going to ricochet, and it does--to both sides of the blade.
You put that sword in a vise at the top and bottom, and fire on it from the side. Then it'll be a relevant demonstration... except that steel plates thinner than a katana blade will stop a 9mmP round.
I read an article on Katana nmaking and if it is to be trusted it said that the high carbon content made them strong as well and the main reason for the folding was impurities in the steel, they were folded like 12 times or so. This would create a lot of layers and may help make the Katan stronger but it was mainly to weed out imperfections.
If we really want to stress a Katana we should get an illegal Tungsten bullet coated in Teflon and made into an armor piercing point. Then fire a high velocity high calibre gun at it. Fun!
Even though the lead is soft it would cause a very large amount of force to be transmitted into the Katana, even with the softness of lead the high speed the bullet travels at will still gaurantee a lot of damage. Why else would steel armor be easily penetrated by high calibre and relatively low velocity balls?
If we really want to stress a Katana we should get an illegal Tungsten bullet coated in Teflon and made into an armor piercing point. Then fire a high velocity high calibre gun at it. Fun!
Even though the lead is soft it would cause a very large amount of force to be transmitted into the Katana, even with the softness of lead the high speed the bullet travels at will still gaurantee a lot of damage. Why else would steel armor be easily penetrated by high calibre and relatively low velocity balls?
There are 2 seecrets to the katana
1 Fold the mettal over and over and Hit tit till its the shape you want,
2 cover the new sword with layers of clay, difrent amounts of clay for the difrent parts of the sword, "this means the steel heats to difrent teperatures at difrent parts"
this enshures you get a Strong back to the sword which gives it its strength,
and a soft blade edge so you can sharpen,
katanas rule, and compared to the old musket / flint lock guns its in a totaly difrent leage, after all you can still use a sword in heavy rain,
But in all honesty, if there was a guy a mile away with a .50 cal anti tank sniper rifle,
I doubt a my sword would save me :)
1 Fold the mettal over and over and Hit tit till its the shape you want,
2 cover the new sword with layers of clay, difrent amounts of clay for the difrent parts of the sword, "this means the steel heats to difrent teperatures at difrent parts"
this enshures you get a Strong back to the sword which gives it its strength,
and a soft blade edge so you can sharpen,
katanas rule, and compared to the old musket / flint lock guns its in a totaly difrent leage, after all you can still use a sword in heavy rain,
But in all honesty, if there was a guy a mile away with a .50 cal anti tank sniper rifle,
I doubt a my sword would save me :)
It's a matter of speed of transfer, for one. If the energy is transferred while there's still a mass left then yes, it'll penetrate (that's a huge simplification). There's also the matter that you have lead ball, and jacketed lead ball. Copper-jacketed rounds are pretty common, and though copper is softer than steel it will still help to penetrate steel, since copper is harder than lead. The harder the jacket, the more easily it will penetrate. But then we have a problem.
A bullet fits a barrel. That's how you get pressure behind it. When the round is fired, your bullet actually expands and fits into the rifling grooves. With a lead round, this is no problem. Lead being softer than the steel of the barrel, guess which one gives way first? The lead. If you have a hard metal round or a full metal jacket on the round, you're going to have one hard metal scraping against the metal of your barrel. This causes the barrel to wear out very quickly, especially when dealing with steel-jacketed rounds.
That's where teflon comes in. Contrary to popular belief, the teflon coating of a bullet does not make it armor-piercing. It does not help (significantly) with increasing the velocity of the round by reducing barrel friction, partly because you want the round to expand in order to fit into the rifling grooves and give you accuracy. However, if you coat a steel-jacketed round with teflon, you no longer have a hardened steel scraping the inside of your barrel every time you fire. You have a nice, slick, soft teflon coat gently caressing the inside of your barrel every time you fire. In this way, you can use your barrel for more than a week. ;)
Just figured I'd clear up a couple misconceptions while we were at it.
A bullet fits a barrel. That's how you get pressure behind it. When the round is fired, your bullet actually expands and fits into the rifling grooves. With a lead round, this is no problem. Lead being softer than the steel of the barrel, guess which one gives way first? The lead. If you have a hard metal round or a full metal jacket on the round, you're going to have one hard metal scraping against the metal of your barrel. This causes the barrel to wear out very quickly, especially when dealing with steel-jacketed rounds.
That's where teflon comes in. Contrary to popular belief, the teflon coating of a bullet does not make it armor-piercing. It does not help (significantly) with increasing the velocity of the round by reducing barrel friction, partly because you want the round to expand in order to fit into the rifling grooves and give you accuracy. However, if you coat a steel-jacketed round with teflon, you no longer have a hardened steel scraping the inside of your barrel every time you fire. You have a nice, slick, soft teflon coat gently caressing the inside of your barrel every time you fire. In this way, you can use your barrel for more than a week. ;)
Just figured I'd clear up a couple misconceptions while we were at it.
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