Announcing: Europa Barbarorum

[Malorix]

i cant believe how close i was on the name..

[Ranika]

If you want a bit of an expansion on the government idea, it was thought of because not every factions' government is the exact same. Celts DID form cognizant countries (or, at least what we recognize as countries). But, the actual 'country' would be relatively small. However, a Celtic king would control MORE than that country, through military alliances, political wrangling, getting nobles installed who are friendly to the king, and religion. The government types are expanded though, with unique types of government for different factions, like the Romans and their ability to control, and then Romanize a province. Celts don't really 'Celticize' a province (and really don't have to most of the time anyway, 80% of Europe is Celtic or close to it, and they will purposely have trouble expanding into the near east and Africa, though the clerical noble will be closest to Celticization). Their governments won't be unbalancing. In fact, one of the 'best' bonuses, from a military aspect, makes the province very prone to rebellion (client) and low population, because it is relatively indepedent, but because of that, in concept it wages small scale 'clan wars', which give units raised from them extra experience. Every government aspect offers appropriate bonuses and penalties to realistically portray the chaotic form of government outside of those areas directly under the control of the Celtic king.

[jerby]

ok, and the engine?

[Steppe Merc]

Engine?

[Aetius the Last Roman]

You people are geniouses (sp?),
They should ask for your help for TW4,
anyway, good luck on your release,
I salute you,
three years of dedicated work.

[RedJack]

It is an abstract. I mean it is just a building that enables the building of other buildings, the recruitment of certain types of units, and certain bonuses or penalties. We can't change the UI or anything on a per-province basis. This really isn't a revolutionary concept. The nice thing about the building system is that it is one of the few things that we can really make adjustments to.

The beta test will be open. In the future we will have closed betas for new versions. But we figured that you guys would want to get your hands on what we've done so far. I guarantee that it will be better than vanilla RTW.

I am VERY interested! Two questions
1) How are you going to distribute it? 500 MB is a heck of a download.

2) How long have you guys been working on this? RTW is my first experience in playing modded games, so this is pretty mind blowing!

[Steppe Merc]

Some of us, including me, were working on this before the demo even came out! Most of it was of course just visualizing, and only recently was any work really done.

[Butcher]

I have to say, this does look very promising.

[Han]

hmm looks very promising, I bet theres lots of people thats just looking on, but supporting =)

[WesW]

Governments - each faction will have choices to make when taking over provinces. These choices reflect how the faction interacts with the people they have conquered, and in some instances the land and resources. For instance, the steppe people will have to choose between a nomadic or agricultural infrastructure, and this will affect the type of troops they can raise and the bonuses and such from the economy and people. The Celts will probably have a choice of four types of government - Directly controlled by a king (subjugated - homelands only), controlled by an installed noble (subjugated, different bonuses/penalties), controlled by an indigenous leader (client), or controlled by a religious leader (assimilated).

As you can see there will be considerable variety between factions. Furthermore, if there is some suggestion you have along these lines for individual factions, we are happy to consider it.

Ok, ok, I won't torture you anymore. It is a bricoli, and while it may look like it isn't very powerful, such devices were more powerful than an arrow and often used for killing mounts. You don't get a sense of scale with these pictures.

The production release will be a fully-automated install. I am not sure about the open beta yet. The size of the open beta will likely be in the neighborhood of 500MB.

I cannot currently forsee anything "sold," as that brings very real legal issues. We may offer a written manual for download. Certainly the mod will require documentation.

If you do decide to charge for the mod, I want royalties. j/k

Concerning the bricoli, I wonder if you don't have the bolts oriented the wrong way. I mean, the lever won't hit any of the bolts at a right angle except the topmost one. Imagine hitting a nail with a hammer at the wrong angle and you'll understand what I am getting at here.
It would make more sense to me if the bolts were lined up horizontally, hit by a large head on the end of the lever, similar to the head on a golf driver. Launching a horizontal barrage would also seem to make more practical military sense as well.
Just trying to help.

[Kull]

Rome

Until such time where a unified Rome solution that is proven to be bug/nuisance-free exists, EB will continue to search for a solution that includes three Roman factions. Our previous implementation included Optimates, Populares, and Socii. These were abstracts, where the 'leaders' of these factions represented influential members of the particular political group within the Senate, and not an actual political leader. So the Populares faction leader was not actually the political leader of the "Populares" group in the Senate.

Since then we have gone through other ideas. The three factions may be called "Army Groups," or Proconsulates, or Consulates, or two of an above choice and the Socii. Our current implementation in 0.5 is going to be a test of a complete abstract - Dominium Romanum Borealis, Dominium Romanum Australe, and Dominium Romanum Orientalis. These represent, simply, an arbitrary, abstract breakdown of Rome's provincial holdings. Comments are welcome.

Should we continue with this sort of faction division, the Senate seats will be greatly adjusted, for both number and effect.

I too have been quietly following this project, and it's nice to finally see the EB kimono open up a tad. The lead post was most informative, and it seems the team has a great handle on almost every aspect of the mod - except the conundrum of what to do with tri-partite Rome. Your three choices to date seem to have been political parties, social classes, and now geographic expansion zones. For a group with so many historians, I can see why the EB Team would be eager to cast aside the "three families" pablum offered by vanilla RTW, but the alternatives look pretty unappetizing. Aside from the brief era of triumvirates during the end-of-republic times, most of Rome's history has been more dualist than anything - exemplifed by the twin founders (Romulus/Remus), the annual power sharing between two consuls, and the fundamental Patrician/Plebeian divide. But even this doesn't carry over to a game which insists on three permanent factions whose sole raison d'etre is to expand geographically. There's just nothing historic about that! So I empathise with what must be a sisyphean task.

So. In the spirit of no boundaries, no preconceived notions, pure Brainstormery (sic), lets look at some other options - not all of them new or original (and by all means, don't be gentle in your critiques):

1) Another group of factions gets the Senate: I've seen this discussed in many other threads, so the concept isn't new. And maybe there's a fundamental hardcoding which prevents alteration. But if not, the idea of a Council governing the Gallic tribes or the Greek Factions has more historical relevance than the way in which the current model constrains Rome.

2) Two weak factions, one strong: That appeared elsewhere in this thread, and may reflect current EB Team thinking. It has the benefit of preventing the unified Rome bugs that are paramount in your thinking ("first, do no harm"), but there's an air of artificiality about this too. Definitely worth fleshing out a bit, though.

3) Etruscans/Romans/Samnites: This might be a problem if you implement the "three era's" concept, but otherwise it offers an intriguing way to spice up the opening phase of the game. Here's how it would work: The game begins with the "Civil War" already under way, except it's not really that. The Senate has outlawed the Etruscans and Samnites, meaning that Rome begins the game at war with both (this may not be pure historic truth, but Rome was in more or less perpetual war with it's neighbors throughout it's formative years). The struggle for Italy consumed Rome's early history, and now you can simulate that, AND do away with the artificial "three factions" constraint. This also offers players the option of selecting a "Roman" faction (i.e. Etruscan or Samnite) that is fundamentally different from the existing "me-too" factions. A little spice is nice, plus it fulfills the dreams of those "what-iffers" who wonder what a non-Roman Ancient Italy would have looked like. Of course there's one major question - can you open the game with the Civil War underway? And if not, can it be "worked around" to achieve the same (or similar) result?

4) Romans and 2 Native Italian factions: A more detailed variant of concept #2, but the basic premise is to cripple the Italians so they can't be succesfull in expanding beyond Italy, leaving the "Romans" as the only ones who can build an empire outside the "boot". Ideally, you would have something akin to three Senate factions who maintain the kinds of tough armies that would hinder those seeking to invade Italy, while staying contentedly home until the Civil War, at which time they become a real pain - but only within Italy. This means the Civil War would be confined to a small number of intense, painful battles, locally confined. As opposed to the current ahistorical "World Wars" (yes, many - maybe even most - Civil War battles were fought outside Italy. However, they tended to be few in number and usually involved the faction leaders, and loss of the battle often meant loss of the war - none of which is currently true).

5) Senate = Religion: This is just wayyyyyyy out there, but would it be possible to take all the senate missions and pronouncements and give them a religious twist? So instead of pleasing the People or the Senate, the goal would be to increase the level of Divine Approval (maybe two jealous gods must be equally propitiated). I haven't even begun to think this one through, but it's pretty "outside the box", and might enable a different approach to the three faction problem.

Well, just some food for thought, and certainly I invite others to toss in ideas of their own. It sounds like a great mod, and my congratulations to the EB team for their already impressive list of accomplishments.

[khelvan]

Personally, I tend to favor the "two consular armies" idea, with the third faction being Socii. But that's just me. Crippling a faction so that it won't expand outside of the peninsula is rather easy, actually.

[Kull]

Personally, I tend to favor the "two consular armies" idea, with the third faction being Socii. But that's just me. Crippling a faction so that it won't expand outside of the peninsula is rather easy, actually.

What about the role of families? You still have fathers passing the office on to their relatives, plus there's the issue of "conquest permanence" - lands captured by Consul #1 always remain under the control of Consul #1, and his family. So it seem that all you've done is to remove the name of the family, while retaining all the other ahistorical features.

[khelvan]

We will have "family members" with surnames that do not match, and can change the text associated with faction leader advancement and the UI around the "family tree" to describe something different. Of course we will still have people being born, but the text at least will be different.

We're also examining how we can, if possible, have the Senate demand land from the factions under its control.

[eadingas]

What about the role of families? You still have fathers passing the office on to their relatives, plus there's the issue of "conquest permanence" - lands captured by Consul #1 always remain under the control of Consul #1, and his family. So it seem that all you've done is to remove the name of the family, while retaining all the other ahistorical features.

Exactly! You tell them, Kull :)

(this has been a sneak peek into internal struggles of EB team ;)

[Southern Hunter]

Kull,

Great brainstorming. I particularly like suggestions #3 and #4.

They seem really good ways to handle the inherent 3 families mechanic, if it is possible to go to war with these other factions?

Cheers,

Hunter

[Ellesthyan]

My preference goes to use the roman slots for the Gaulish factions, with an unified Rome. The Gauls were seperated in a few major tribes led by high kings, who ruled over all the other tribes. The Arveni, the Aedui, the Veneti and the Belgae spring to mind.

Another similar solution is to carry the romans over to Greece, were they take the place of Athens, Sparta, Corinth, and Epirus. This makes Greece the powerhouse it was, though divided and tiny.

In both plans I'd advise to start the civil war immidiately, or to let the Senate be taken out as fast as possible.

[Kull]

(this has been a sneak peek into internal struggles of EB team ;)

And not having been a part of those struggles, I'll make every effort to avoid criticizing that of which I know not!

But it does seem as if the EB Team has been very successful in weeding out most of the blatantly ahistorical aspects of RTW. And further, they have sought to stretch the limits of the game wherever possible. So I would just encourage the team to take a VERY hard look at ALL the possible alternatives to a tri-partite Rome. Your reach has been impressive, the existing achievements and insights likewise - so why not "go the last mile" and seek for a truly revolutionary solution to this conundrum?

You know what you want - a bug free, un-Senatized, unified Rome - so go ahead, reach for that star!

[Folcumbane]

If there are 3 roman factions and senate, they conquer vast area too easily and too soon. When I have played un-modded RTW with non-Roman faction, I have seen Romans to conquer whole Western Europe and Africa before 200 BC.

[Keba]

Exactly, they expand far too quickly.

I think Kull's idea #3 is excellent, as the Senate would continue to exist, but instead of starting in the Civil War, you could just bind SPQR and one faction (Romans, Roman armies, or named something like that, I'm not a historian), although I'm not sure that the two spaces could be used (as far as I remember, someone mentioned that the Roman factions cannot be replaced, only removed), if they cannot, it would still leave the Romans in a bit more historical place, as they would be forced to expand more slowly, although two factions would be lost.

The Senate-1 Roman faction would be a possible solution to removing the three houses, but I'm not sure how it would perform at the point of the Civil War (as there are no other Roman factions to fight). I suppose that a way to test it is to beef up (using text-editing only) the other factions and have them eliminate the Scipii and Julii, while the Brutii stand and watch (as the computer rarely uses ships to transport armies), then restore the stats to their previous form and fight off the invaders (and hopefully save the Senate), then proceed to the Civil War and see what happens.

[Keba]

Exactly, they expand far too quickly.

I think Kull's idea #3 is excellent, as the Senate would continue to exist, but instead of starting in the Civil War, you could just bind SPQR and one Roman faction, although I'm not sure that the two spaces could be used (as far as I remember, someone mentioned that the Roman factions cannot be replaced, only removed), if they cannot, it would still leave the Romans in a bit more historical place, as they would be forced to expand more slowly, although two factions would be lost.

The Senate-1 Roman faction would be a possible solution to removing the three houses, but I'm not sure how it would perform at the point of the Civil War (as there are no other Roman factions to fight). I suppose that a way to test it is to beef up (using text-editing only) the other factions and have them eliminate the Scipii and Julii, while the Brutii stand and watch (as the computer rarely uses ships to transport armies), then restore the stats to their previous form and fight off the invaders (and hopefully keep the Senate in one piece), then proceed to the Civil War and see what happens.

This is just my idea, I would test it, but my text-editing skills are at an absolute zero, and I don't really have the patience (or the computer, as I've had to replace several parts with inferior ones temporarily) to test the theory. If it has been thought of, I apologize.

[Es Arkajae]

A new question which has probbaly been asked elsewhere though I couldn't find it when I looked.


Will the AI be improved under the EB Mod or is that something that is 'hardcoded' and can't be tampered with?

Afterall one can change the ridiculous kill rates and unit speeds to enable better tactics where one has to actually use ones brain, but if the AI is still as inept as it is in the vanilla game then that remains a major problem.

Not to sound too negative, I'm looking forward to this mod (as long as its of size I can actually download!), but if the computer remains just as dumb than how can it be challenging without just handicapping the human player?

[khelvan]

The AI can't be touched.

[tai4ji2x]

The AI can't be touched.

well, there are SOME things you can do... descr_formations_ai.txt and the AI personalities in descr_strat for example. but the bulk of it, yeah, it's hardcoded.

[Dux Corvanus]

If you do decide to charge for the mod, I want royalties. j/k

Concerning the bricoli, I wonder if you don't have the bolts oriented the wrong way. I mean, the lever won't hit any of the bolts at a right angle except the topmost one. Imagine hitting a nail with a hammer at the wrong angle and you'll understand what I am getting at here.
It would make more sense to me if the bolts were lined up horizontally, hit by a large head on the end of the lever, similar to the head on a golf driver. Launching a horizontal barrage would also seem to make more practical military sense as well.
Just trying to help.

Yeah, the lever must end in a 'T' shape, firing simultaneously the bolts which should be alligned horizontally. Even if the angle was correct, in the actual machine, the lower ones would receive a significantly minor impulse, due to lesser inertia moment and speed of the low part of the lever. The upper the beat, the stronger the impulse, it's easy to see. Besides, the bolts should lay on some type of channeled support, to avoid flying without control once they have been beated.

[Latro]

Besides, the bolts should lay on some type of channeled support, to avoid flying without control once they have been beated.

Besides I think the beam would just smash the bolts to bits.

Another thing. Where does the torsion come from? The beam itself? What kind of wood would last more than one or two shots?

What is your source for this engine??

[eadingas]

The machine is supposed to be cheap, easy to make, simple to use. It's not supposed to be accurate, long-range, or long use. I think the beams could've been replaced easily, they were just wooden boards.
The source are some military history books with reconstruction pictures, and IIRC some celtic tales (though they don't give detailed info on construction)

[Skilfingr]

...and IIRC some celtic tales ...

[eadingas]

Now now, don't start on celtic tales as invalid source, or you'll feel Ranika's wrath upon you :D Anyway, we used them to confirm the fact that similar machines were used in antiquity, not based the design on them - the design was based on archeological reconstructions.

[Skilfingr]

Anyway, we used them to confirm the fact that similar machines were used in antiquity, not based the design on them - the design was based on archeological reconstructions.

Could you please point me out some archeological finds or publications about these siege engines?