Only just read: Ealiest Roman historian...

[Kraxis]

This has only just come forth from the depth of a catholic monestary in Sicily.

A Roman historian named Marcus Lentulus wrote a contemporary history of the time around 200BC, it is believed that he at least at some point was serving in the Roman army, though he is a bit extreme with numbers at times it is a very credible source. Sadly the first 13 books are lost, but fragmentary remains of the next 7 can give us an insight into the situation presented to us in the following books.

In the late spring of 200BC a Seleucid army under the command of Adymos of Epiphaneia landed in the swamps near Tarentum, there it fought a battle with a smaller praetorian (as in Praetor, not Praetorian as the troops) army which it almost annihilated. It moved up past Tarentum into the plains of eastern Italy, and during the winter it was reinforced by another army (the references to this army suggest that it might have been under command by a family relation to Adymos, but so far there is nothing certain about it). That second army moved south to occupy the Roman forces crossing from Africa and Sicily.

During the next months neither side engaged in much fighting it seems. A few small scale skirmishes happened, but it seemed that the Seleucids didn't want to waste manpower in engaging the Roman legions in the central highlands of Campania or Samnium. The Romans tired of war had no large concentrations of legionaries. So neither side gained anything from engaging each other.
It seems the Senate was quick in realising that Adymos was gunning for Rome itself as he skillfully evaded every large city on his way.

It is hard to determine where the Romans got the troops from, but in the summer of 199BC a large Praetorian army set out to do battle with Adymos on the plains near lake Bracciano. This army was apparently without cavalry alltogether, but it was about as large as the Seleucid army, about 35.000 each.

We enter book 21, where the battle is about to begin. The Praetor P. Asinius is in command. A Roman mile is 1000 passus, and the mile was around the length of a mile today. The term 'pilani' is used in place of 'triarii'.

"Our army had marched 6 miles to meet the Greeks who had set up camp on a gentle slope leading down to the lake a few miles away. Asinius ordered the camp to be built at a distance of at least 1500 passus to keep the army on its toes and the Greeks worried at the spectacle of such disciplined involved in its construction. During the construction a small detachment of Greek horsemen rode up to observe the army, but were driven off by the light troops.
For three days Asinius marched the army out of camp to offer battle but the Greeks refused, meanwhile they used their cavalry and light troops to harry our foragers. The fourth and fifth days neither army came out as the gods sent a storm over the country. The sixth day Asinius saw a fox running towards the Greek camp and took it as a great omen that the Greeks would fight and he marched out his men once more. Though they had eaten their breakfast they were worried as little supplies came in, neither from the foragers or from supplytrains. Not until noon did the Greeks show themselves from their camp. Then a rider came from the east bearing news. Reinforcements from Cisalpine Gaul was nearby in the form of a legion under the legate C. Piso.
The Greek commander Adymos of Epiphaneia had noticed the same and didn't want to get caught on unfavourable terrain against a superior enemy of such strong valour. He lined his infantry, the feared Macedonian phalanx, up in his center under Clearchus, covered by Thureophoroi in front of them and the flanks. On either side of the infantry he had equally large formations of fully armoured riders under the command of Missius and Bataos. His personal retainers he had grouped behind the infantry phalanx as he sought the greatest point of protection.
Asinius brought up his light troops to drive away the Thurophoroi, first with their ranged weapons, then with several charges.
The infantry yearning to get to grips with the Greeks pleaded with Asinius to charge in, the centurion L. Crateus spoke up "shall we not drive the odd men from the east away? Are they too much of a burden? Valour still holds strong in our lands, and men shall yet fight for their nation. So how is it O'Praetor that we stand here like wheat before the harvest?" Asinius responded "long shall we live, for we are Romans. But if valour truly belongs here, then it should contain itself until needed. For wheat can still sting if taken wrongly." "Aye, but let the enemy show his face today. We have waited, yet he has not come. Ever seeking we might be but will he run away today? Courage is plentiful, let it be so, for how long will it last? Strength is not in numbers but in courage." Asinius was taken by the response and said "To talk is to waste, we shall let the Greeks run only after dew falls. They are but soft thinkers." The light troops fell back after an undesided skirmish, but the Greek skirmishers held place.
As the our infantry closed the last 200 passus to te Greek lines the armoured horsemen on either side advanced at a great pace, seeking the rear of our army. Unopposed they could ride on, Asinius had chosen to fight with the infantry fast.

Book 22
The tribune A. Centellus walked up to Asinius. "Will we let them ride on? The sun does not shine so brightly if the day is tainted with blood. Let the pilani do their job." "The sight has not escaped me, and you should march with haste." The last of our lines broke up from their advance and moved to engage the Greek cavalry.
The thurophoroi held their ground in face of our furious attacks, their javelins stinging. But our men did their job, pressing them back. Even the light troops advanced again seeking out their former foes in true combat. Soon the Greeks were pushing, soon they were pushed back again, our troops carving a deep path into the enemy formation, cutting them down as they ran.
The armoured horsemen were caught by the pilani, but some ran round the pilani and charged the principes in the rear. The confusion was great as enemy cavalry rode on with lowered lances and drawn maces. The pilani routed them, but they kept coming their numbers undoubtedly more than Hannibal at Trasimene.
Asinius marched with his men to the front, fighting and commanding. His bravery was great. The thureophoroi on the far edges drove back our light troops in melee, but they didn't cahse them far as they folded in on our lines. Asinius who had attacked hard with his men was soon attacked on the right side as well as the front. A hard push by his men and the Greek light troops in front of them routed, a ruthless chase was brought on even as other enemy light troops attacked from the flank. A cheer went up and Asinius sent some troops to engage the attacking light troops while he took the rest of his men and personally led the charge on the enemy center.
The feared argyraspids had the position in front of him and the phalanx soon set in motion. Legionaries grabbed the pikes, broke them with their hands or swords but they were pushed back or their shields penetrated by the other pikes. Fear set in as the once victorious Romans felt the full fury of the Macedonian phalanx, the slow and deliberate advance that never stopped or slowed down.
The pilani were now alone as the armoured horsemen attacked again and again. Surrounded on all sides by innumerable enemies they fought on. Grappling enemies, tripping horses and even throwing rocks at the enemy. But now the rear was open.
Adymos' plan of envelopment had worked, our troops were pushed close and closer together by the advancing phalanx, our pila seemingly doing no damage to the dense formations. Asinius retired to the rear where he was met by a Greek rider by the name of Matakos who called to him "where are you going? Good men wait for others, and I have a present for you." Asinius replied "the light of day shall soon fade. I seek not eternal life." "Then let us go, for I am here. Wood and steel I carry, but flesh and bone carry me." Matakos' first strike glanced off Asinius cuirass. "How shall the flowers bloom if this toils on?" The second strike struck home on Asinius' helmet and he fell to the ground, T. Labienus rushing to him. As he sat Asinius up our troops fled from the terrifying phalanx, the men running past them in droves. "We must go, for the Senate awaits us." But Asinius would have none of it "Nay, the ground is soft and dry here, I think I will rest until dark." Labenius left him.
The Greek riders chased our men to the camp where they were finally repulsed by the campguard. Adymos stopped at the camp and the next day the survivors shamefully surrendered.
Of our troops only 9000 managed to escape, but they had killed a large protion of the Greek light troops and Adymos lost 12000 men and 10000 cavalry."

The next book relate to how the Senate reacted to this, but it obvious from this the reason as to why the battle of Magnesia would follow.

[Proletariat]

Fascinating! Thanks, Kraxis.

[Red Harvest]

Great stuff!

[AntiochusIII]

Whoa...thanks, Kraxis! I always wondered why the Romans are soooooo after Antiochus' blood while they left the backstabbing Philip alone.

Indeed, Antiochus' expedition on Italy is a truely aggressive action that no doubt caused fear in Rome only a few short years after Hannibal's own invasion...and he's still alive in Antiochus' support!

If I was the Senate I would've been enraged.

[Mablung]

Wow, now that is truly interesting, any chance of more to come?

[Kraxis]

There certainly is a chance. We will just have to wait and see if the texts can be translated fast enough. I'm just edging to see how the Senate deals with this.
Interesting how new developments in history can change a lot.

[Kraxis]

Since book 23 relates to the political situation in Rome and the personal grudges the various senators have with each other it becomes a mess of names and speeches. No clear action was taken from what Lentulus gives us until the two young senators Appius Gracchus and Oppius Petronius takes matters into their own hands, supported by their patron Flavius Gracchus.
They rile up the plebian mob and force the Senate to grant them temporary consulship each to deal with the Seleucid menace and march a consular army to engage Adymos.
The following book clearly indicates that Lentulus didn't give us the correct number of losses for the Seleucid troops as such losses would have forced them from the area, much less head for Ostia.

Book 24
"As winter set in our lands the Greek army still roamed Latium, plundering as it went. The consular army of Appius Gracchus and Oppius Petronius met up with C. Piso's legion near Veii and marched hard to catch the Greeks before they captured Ostia.
Adymos turned to face our men on the slopes of a small hill near the Tiber with a small wood protecting his flank. On his march he had hired the services of treacherous Samnite warriors who now would fight against their fellow Italians.
The Greeks camped on the hill but with an open track to the Tiber, barring the way to the river for our troops. As Gracchus and Petronius neared they sent out a cavalry force to harry enemy foragers and it came to a brief skirmish with enemy cavalry. Neither side inflicted many casualties but the Greeks pulled back, then attacked again before pulling back once more, our cavalry chasing them. At the end our troops stumbled onto a force of Samnites in the small wood and had to retreat again.
It was the day of Petronius to command the army and he cautioned a careful observation of the enemy, but Gracchus opposed. "Did we march the land only to watch men bathe men? We saw how our cavalry struck hard, like the grinder. Greeks are not real men, they are soft, looking helps not, sharp steel will do." "Gracchus, the sun sets at the course of two circuits of camp, the battle will be dark and ominous. Hence we can fight but victory will elude us when we win." "So much the better, for how can the enemy know us when the moon shines? We move like foxes and fight like wolves, we are the sons of Mars. Darkness is not our enemy." C. Piso the legate was a long veteran and added to the fight. "Darkness can be used, look at Africa where we won. Yet darkness is not where we want to be for it is the time of evils and olives fall hard in the night." Petronius waited.
The next day the camp was assaulted by enemy cavalry and light infantry, throwing in torches and javelins but they were repulsed after a single attack. Our men took heart at the victory, be it small it was important. Gracchus took the army out before breakfast. Petronius said "friend, we shall not fight in the morn. There is yet time for us." "The men struck our enemy hard, the courage has grown like weed. Take advantage and victory is ours!" "We are awaited, fall not for this, this Greek is wily, and the birds are silent. We have 2000 passus yet to march." "The winter is set and cold, nay a bird shall fly, but battle shall be given for men are not cold but strong."
Adymos arranged his troops as he had done at the previous battle but with the unreliable Samnites on the flanks of his phalanx. Gracchus used his cavalry to protect the flanks from the heavy Greek horsemen as he marched up the hill. The Greeks threw insults from the summit as our troops closed but that did not scare them as we had numbers on our side. The enemy thureophoroi threw javelins at our few velites. Under the onslaught they retired to the rear and let the hastati advance to give the enemy their handling.
Petronius, seeing an opening in the enemy lines sent his cavalry at it, the thureophoroi was surprised and he rode down many, but suddenly the enemy armorued horsemen were among his men swinging their heavy weapons. Petronius engaged the enemy commander "the seeds are sown, our lives are but nought for safety of men. I find solace in the end." "Agreed, solace is what you will find, but nay at home, yet at Demeter." With that Petronius was struck down by the Greek's mace.
Our assault on the enemy line was going hard. The pikes were thrust with great vigour and strength and our men fell back from the attack. From the gaps the enemy thureophoroi lunged out and our men began to lose heart.
Gracchus not understood the enemy intention of using the heavy horsemen but C. Piso held him back when the assault began and our equites broke against the Samnites and pikes. "Watch Gracchus, the enemy runs to the side, we must not let them." "Cold steel will pay and new plays will be played." The allied cavalry with them, charged at the enemy horsemen flying at our rear. The crash of contact was loud and crushing, our men jumped horses and threw themselves with reckless abandon at the enemy. The Greeks broke and Gracchus sought to chase but Piso again held him back. "Nay, we must not let us get caught up in it, the fields are not yet ripe and our sickle is dulled. Many a foe still roams."
As our first line broke against the enemy line the vile Samnites gave chase, ignoring the orders given to them prior to the battle. Many a man fell to their evil attacks, but satisfaction can be gotten from the knowledge that our equites took them in and savaged them. Our second line advanced to meet the long pikes and they pushed greatly to get the enemy to give ground.
After seeing their friends get routed the enemy armoured horsemen fled back towards their own lines, their valour broken, chased by our pilani. Such as chase disorders any army and theenemy acted on it, their thureophoroi wentured out again and took our pilani in the flanks, and despite great bravery and more stoic composition the pilani were sent reeling back, followed by the armoured horsemen who had been reinvigourated by the action.
Finally the the enemy phalanx seemed to open and Gracchus called out "Look to your front! Is it not our day? I see the granery ahead and many a long night, shall we not take it, or has our valour left us at the direst hour." The men took heart again and threw themselves at the enemy, cutting deep into the phalanx, here they faced Adymos and his personal retainers. Large and strong men on noble steeds, they fought our men to a halt and the enemy phalanx composed itself. Gracchus pulled back, seeking the safety of camp but Missius the cavalry commander saw him. "Are the Romans not on the field? But yet the clouds fly south, what do we do?" Gracchus turned his men around and answered the challenge. "A wretched hive I have found, but none the stronger can it get. By virtue we are brave and by heart we are Romans, nay a cloud will fly south." The clash was heavy and the fight was brutal but Gracchus was wounded and fell to the ground while his men fled. Missius called to him "Surrender thy pride and you shall face leniency of the horse. Do not and you will enstrange thy own friends." "The Senate and people of Rome will not talk peace on Roman soil, remove yourself of be one with the ground." With a swift blow Gracchus was brough to the ground.
Another of our armies had been destroyed by Adymos and the people of Rome was in fear. Was he to march on Rome itself?

Book 25
In the late winter an army under M. Tertius and I. Placus marching south came across a Greek supplycolumn including warelephants and reinforcements to Adymos. Rhodian slingers made the advance difficult and the elephants wrought havoc in our lines supported by heavy cavalry, both the commanders bravely fell fighting the despicable invanders. The Greeks were though finally crushed on a small hill where they chose their last stand. All 4000 Greeks were put to the sword. When news reached Rome the people was celebrating this as if it had been a great victory and the end of war. A demand was made that Tertius and Placus were made heroes of the republic. But that would wait as another army was raised to face Adymos now lingering near Ostia where he licked his wounds."

[Mablung]

Keep it coming Kraxis, this is awesome stuff!

[Red Harvest]

So at this point we have two new major battles where the Polybian style legions are beaten by the Macedonian phalanx (and combined arms of course.) And these appear to have been battles where the Roman armies felt confident, rather than having the matter forced upon them. This really settles the matter for me. Frontally, the Roman infantry should be beaten soundly by a formed phalanx.

Lots of fun reading between the lines. The use of the "pilani" (triarii) midway through indicates the Romans were hard pressed throughout the battle. Also sounds like they got suckered into charging with their cav early after the Samnites.

[Mablung]

Yeah, poor leadership I would think, the Greeks held the better ground and they sought to engage front on...why not used the Legion's maneuverability and flexibility? They played right into the enemy's hands. The use of the Triarii was warranted IMO. The cavalry had to be stopped and the Triarii were the best at it. They should have been drawn up to prevent flanking in the first place, or perhaps use the Velites to harrass the flanking cavalry?

[The_Mark]

One thing to say: Great stuff.

[Red Harvest]

It says they were short on velites. The Greeks had better peltasts (good enough to use for flanking the now disordered triarii.)

[Mablung]

So why not use the Principes pila if the pila were having little effect on the phalanx? The horsemen were heavily armoured but I doubt the horse would have been, they would be susceptible to the pila, no?
Would the "thurophoroi" be the heavy peltasts of R:TW?

Why would the Triarii have given chase? They were the experienced men of the Legion, they would have better discipline. Another example of poor leadership?

[Kraxis]

Well the pilum was fairly short ranged, I don't suspect the cavalry would just sit around and wait for the Romans to throw their weapons at them. THe texts do indicate that they don't venture close to the enemy unless they see an opening or a weakspot. Obviously good cavalry commanders.

And yes, the thureophoroi are the game's Heavy Peltasts (check the HP description), but they existed as spearmen as well (it seems they were able to do both when they chose), sort of the phalanx protectors and the general chasers when the enemy routed. Lets just call them light infantry.
But remember that the Hastati were like this earlier, no armour and either javelins or spear along the lines of the Samnite tradition.

Anyway the Romans have obviously been given a boost of confidence when they defeated Hannibal, and that coupled with the usual Roman impetuousness, makes for a very bull-charge aproach.

[SigniferOne]

Where can I find this online? At least some news about the find, if not the book itself?

[Craterus]

that was really interesting Kraxis!!!!! it took me a while to read it all but it was great!

[Red Harvest]

Kraxis,

Who made the discovery and is doing the research on this? Where can I look for updates as they piece more of this story together? I wonder how many new books will arise from this?

[Catiline]

Most likely none..., thread moved.

[master of the puppets]

wow awsome stuff

[Kraxis]

Guys I have a little confession to make...

I thought you were in on this (it seems Catiline is) since some of the posts looked that way.

I merely wrote this on a basis of my experiences of RTW. I have a current game where I am Seleucid and I have two armies sitting in Italy doing damage, in fact the very same damage as I have presented.

I merely wanted to flavour up my little battlereports, not subverting you. Of course I'm highly flattered by your posts, because who wouldn't want his fiction to be believeable? This has been a great confidencebooster guys, and I'm terribly sorry if you feel cheated or anything similar, but as I have mentioned I did think you had seen through it.

So I don't know if I should ashamed or extremely proud.

[player1]

grrrr...

[Red Harvest]

You completely fooled me! I was thinking, wow, this is gonna shake things up! Oh well.

[Kraxis]

Sorry guys. It wasn't the intention... Well a little perhaps, but not so as to make up history.

Anyway, this is basically how I would have expected proper legion/phalanx battles to have turned out, at least in the infantry department.

[Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe]

Good story, fooling everyone is a definitive proof of it

Louis,

[AntiochusIII]

You've got me.

EDIT: Hey! Complete the Story!

[Monk]

This was in the mead hall when i came to it; therefore i already had the assumption that it was a tw based story. However i can clearly see how many could think otherwise.

Kraxis: Excellent story. The way you present it draws the reader in and makes them believe (as you have seen) that this could have happened. Don't feel ashamed, You've given a story that is not only believable but is an interesting read. i would say you should be proud.

I enjoy your style and look forward to the next installment

and Welcome to the Mead Hall (just incase i've never said so to you before) have a pleasant stay.

[Kraxis]

I will continue this of course, but now the story will become more an more fictional as endless victories in a short timespan were rather impossible. Also, after this installment it will most likely be some time before the next one as I'm leaving for Italy tomorrow for ten days of cultural enrichment.

Book 26
"Adymos' spies in Rome had initially reported the gloomy air in the city and the relative lack of proper troops. This had coincided with the march to Ostia where he hoped to find reinforcements from home. He had been faced with a serious choice of going either way. His best commanders had been with him, Clearchus the infantrycommander spoke up "Fatigue... Yes, that is the point. My men are but marching because of their lives, the power is gone. We must rest." To that Bagoas responded "To be less of a drillmaster like you is the weakness, the men can carry on. Rome lies on her back beckoning to us, should we not take her? Are we to waste our victories?" "Nay, but even Alexander knew when enough was enough, tired soldiers make for few victories like the waves brake on the shores." "The future holds no battles should we march on Rome, the men need no rest as no rest is needed." Finally Adymos spoke up "There is little we can do when in the hands of the gods. Zeus has chosen to give us a predicament that no man for sure can answer right. We will rest." As Adymos and his army rested outside Ostia waiting for reinforcements, those very reinforcements were intercepted as I mentioned earlier. When word reached Adymos of the sypplycolumn's fate he broke camp at once and marched on Rome. But just 10 miles from Rome his spies reported the high spirits in Rome and that the remnants of Tertius and Placus were on their way to Rome. Faced with a determined defence of Rome Adymos broke away to the north, for he had not the heart to see our brave Romans out in a siege.
Aeson, son of Kassandros, Adymos' cousin and companion commanded the mercenary army to the south. This ugly and spiteful man had taken his army north to combine with Adymos in effort to take Rome, but he had been prevented by Tertius' and Placus' army, now under command of the patrician T. Paullus. Paullus had abandoned all Roman bravery and aggression, and had sat still as the Greeks had advanced on his position. The former glorious army melted away before the evil Greek attacks."

Book 27
"Adymos had known nothing of his evil cousin's advance north, and he himself advanced north into Etruria in the spring (this must now be 198BC), seeking new pastures of plunder and less determined defenders. Rome had by now come back on her feet seeking high and low for new soldiers to break the Greeks with. Despite the late winter setback in southern Umbria there had been little trouble in getting the recruits, and a new army marched north under the noble Lucius Camillus, trialing the Greek army whereever it went. Holding back when they offered battle and marching aggressively when they fled, time was on our side. Numerous skirmishes took place and even Adymos was involved personally, they even tried to burn towns and villages to get our men to fight them directly. Two weeks did our men harass the Greeks with impunity until Aymos tired of it. In the foothills outside Arretium a few forests still held sway of the countryside, and the Greeks steered right into them, seeking desperately to get away. Lucius followed them as he had been ordered to do, keeping his men in tight formation and armed at all times. They marched for a full three days, but the forest gave no bad surprises, and none of the strange animals had shown themselves. The open plain showed the tracks or a large army towards the next patch of forest. It was here Adymos sprung his trap. His men lay hidden in the tall grass, his cavalry stood in groves and the edges of the forest.
The brave centurion G. Galba noticed something and said to Lucius "The air is foul here. I see no enemy, but my nose never fails me. Trust not this plain." Lucius responded "That can't be denied, for the air is indeed rank with the putrid smell of Greeks. I fear never shall grain grow here again." "Then we must seek out these evil men and give them their proper treatment." "Aye, thyne bravery is never to be misunderstood, they be there at the edge of the next forest." Lucius marched his army on, ready to face Adymos at the next forest. Suddenly a single rider appeared on front of Lucius' column. "Go for your homes. This is not what you seek, here you will find the ground is cold and uninviting, let it not be your companion." With that a phalanx of argyraspids rose behind the rider. Lucius didn't answer but ordered his legates and tribunes to form up for battle, while he sent the extraordinarii to engage the phalanx. As they flew from the van and the entire column was disordered trying to form up in battleformation the entire Greek army rose up and charged at them. The cavalry rushed from their cover to take our infantry in the flanks. All was confusion and men ran from one side of the column to the other. Individuals tried to face the enemy, but with their companions not at their backs anymore they were quickly overpowered. The enemy armoured cavalry broke right through the infantry surrounding Lucius own guard. Lucius himself, surprised by the trap fled with a few of his tribunes and entourage. Meanwhile the thureophoroi and phalanxes hit our column from both sides, crushing the men. Some tried to flee but were run down, others fought until they were brought down others simply gave up. Not even the tough and experienced pilani managed to stand up to the furious Greek charge. Individuals managed to escape but the army was destroyed and the next day a Greek cavalry patrol caught Lucius. The many prisoners were all sold into slavery in the Greek mainland. Such was the fate of our army. Adymos addressed his men at the feast after the battle. "Men, I told you that we are stronger, that we have the legacy of great men, but you were the ones to show me that big trees fall harder, that the arrogant have little place on the battlefield. now I tell you, listen to me and everything will go right, for those Romans are not to be feared, their courage is weak, now on to another victory!" Our armies had suffered yet another crushing defeat, but no peace could be discussed before Adymos had been beaten from our shores."

[master of the puppets]

Quack

[Ellesthyan]

Kraxis, are you going to continue this? It's very interesting.

[Kraxis]

I have only just come back from that trip to Italy I mentioned in my last post. So you have to have some patience.