Macedonian phalanx

[The Stranger]

aren't the shields of the macedonian phalanx to small, cause i thought they were only a bit smaller than the hoplon and not that small at all

[conon394]

They do seem rather small

A Macedonian Talamon shield should be about 2/3 the size 60-69 cm vs. 90+ cm for the Argive Aspis (at least according to what I have read). A lot of the RTW ones look to be maybe 1/3 the size of the Hoplite shield or smaller.

[Kraxis]

They are far too small. They were rather capable shields in melee, not these bucklers.

[The Stranger]

so i'm not the only one, thought i went crazy

[Red Harvest]

They are crazy small! If you look at the unit cards they are shown as being noticeably larger. The position is also a bit off. I've heard others discuss some problems with placing the shield at a more appropriate point--something to do with "bone" placement on the skeleton, etc.

[Kraxis]

Well, the hoplites carry their shields correctly, elbow at the center and the hand at the edge. The pikemen had a similar setup, though their hands would extend out of the shield (hence the need for the shoulderstrap), which could then be used to carry the pike twohanded.

And Red is on to something, the unit pictures show them with fairly large shields that are about the size of the real shields. But in battle we are presented with gladiatorial shields... That is not fair to the phalangites.

[Mablung]

I would think it was done so that the hoplite has some advantages over the phalanx. It is just stupid how they have them.
Side note: one of the background screens in RTR has how a Phalangite's shield should be (or atleast I think it is correct).

[Byzantine Prince]

Apparently you guys haven't seen the amazing work EB mod has done. This problem has been reanimated perfectly. Look:

And here's some of their work in progress:Click!

[Kraxis]

While the placement of the shield is perfect almost, the size is a bit small still.

Anyway, I am absolutely thrilled that they have managed to get them to use the pike twohanded (something we have been told was too hard to get to work). That alone makes EB worth the effort to check out.

Mablung, there isn't any advantage in the shielduse that can be detected, it is all cosmetics. The stats give the phalangites a shieldbonus of 2 whilehoplites get 5. That is certainly not fair as the smaller phalangite shield was easier to use in close melee and it wasn't that small really. A bonus of 3 would be a lot more fitting (which is how I have modded them).

[The Stranger]

yeah, and if you look closer, normal phalanghites have smaller shields than levy pikemen and the rest of the pikemen family

[Craterus]

another question about spearmen: when they are routing, why don't they drop their spears? they must slow them down a lot!

[The Stranger]

i think this are graphical problems, and maybe not for our time yet

[Simetrical]

Anyway, I am absolutely thrilled that they have managed to get them to use the pike twohanded (something we have been told was too hard to get to work).

Look a bit closer—that's the unit info picture, not the in-game model.

-Simetrical

[Red Harvest]

While the placement of the shield is perfect almost, the size is a bit small still.

Anyway, I am absolutely thrilled that they have managed to get them to use the pike twohanded (something we have been told was too hard to get to work). That alone makes EB worth the effort to check out.

I've been looking at this more closely and I'm not sure what it should be. The image is much better, but it still looks like the shield should be shifted more to the soldier's left, and it should be larger reaching up to the shoulder. Part of the problem might be that the shield is being placed too square to the front. The illustrations I've been looking at recently make it appear that it would tend to wrap around the left side more.

I'm not satisfied with most illustrations I've seen of this (including Connolly's.) The center forearm grip would define the limit for the width of the shield. However, the elbow must rest in the bowl to the left of the grip (roughly 4 to 5 inches from the center of the shield. So the shield cannot be overly curved in the center, or held at much of angle relative to the forearm bones. This limits the radius to the distance between the forearm grip and the knuckle on the base of the thumb (if the forearm grip is centered.) I'm a little less than 6 feet tall, and my arms are lanky rather than short, yet this distance would only about 10" to 11" for me (with another ~4" for the outside of my elbow to the grip.) That would limit the shield diameter to about 20", rather than the 24" range I've seen recorded--probably more like 18" for a typical adult male of the time.

I suspect that the center forearm grip might have actually been placed off center by several inches (towards the hand.) This would allow for a wider shield with the center lying over the elbow. It would also provide counter torque to the sarissa being held in the hand. The center mass of the shield would be over the elbow while the grip would be moved a few inches toward the hand, thereby producing some torque. This would also lift the shield slightly when the forearm was lowered and lower the shield slightly when the forearm was raised.

[The Stranger]

Look a bit closer—that's the unit info picture, not the in-game model.

-Simetrical

no i read somewhere on TWcenter.net that someone managed to make upperhand phalanx and 2handed phalanx

[Darius]

Would it be considered feasible to raise the phalangites shield value slightly so as to "simulate" the effect that their pikes had with somewhat helping to keep some of the incoming missile fire from being too devestating. Of course once they left phalanx formation they would still have that shield bonus, but to be honest, once a phalangite formation has left formation, it's either because they're screwed and theyre running away, or they're chasing down a fleeing enemy.

Of course some people may actually use some of their phalangites to charge into exposed flanks, but to my knowledge it would seem that the majority of people know to keep them formed up and allow their cavalry/light infantry to perform that function. Unless of course you're Seleucid, then you could just charge in the Silver Shield Legionarries instead.

[Simetrical]

no i read somewhere on TWcenter.net that someone managed to make upperhand phalanx and 2handed phalanx

The one who made an upperhand hoplite animation, SigniferOne, was able to do so only by removing the phalanx formation from hoplites. He has said explicitly and repeatedly that the way units in phalanx formations hold their pikes cannot be changed.

-Simetrical

[The Stranger]

well i'm playing with upperhand hoplites with secudairy swords, and no eratic behaviour. and they are in phalanx. but i'm not sure about the 2handed phalanx though

[Simetrical]

You're using SigniferOne's mod?

-Simetrical

[Someone Stupid]

You guys really know your history, I have to hand you that.

[The Stranger]

You're using SigniferOne's mod?

-Simetrical

yeah that was the guy, upperhand phalanx look really cool

[Simetrical]

Look here for the problems SigniferOne/dsyrow (same person, changed name) found with changing Macedonian phalanx formation, and the reason for why he recommends that hoplites have phalanx formation removed with his hoplite animation mod. I wasn't aware that it was possible to use the modded hoplites in phalanx formation, but it certainly isn't recommended.

-Simetrical

[The Stranger]

eh i don't get your point, do you mean that you did'n no that you could use the upperhand style in phalanx formation or that it just isn't recomended. cause i know the readme said i had to remove the secundairy sword cause it would prove eratic, so i did but than i tried to play with swords and it worked so i changed it back so all my hoplites have now upperhand phalanx and secundairy swords. but i didn't know he ment that i had to remove the phalanx totally, but i say try it, there is no problem.