What did RTR do to the greek units?

**Rayven1** · 03-24-2005, 04:27

It seems that the greek units are much tougher in RTR. I am fighting the greek cities in my current game and destroying the spear units has been a major pain. From the front a phalanx is supposed to be almost unstoppable provided they are not facing another spear unit with superior numbers but from the rear they are supposed to be very vulnerable once pinned in place by another infantry unit. This has not proven to be the case in my current game. The Greek spear units seem to be able to fight even when nearly surrounded. Horse charges from the rear used to work also but now it just gets my cav killed. The only way I seem to be able to destroy these units regularly is by confronting them with Triarii. Not sure why i'm having so much trouble with them. Were they buffed up at all in RTR?

**hoom** · 03-24-2005, 18:22

The fighting will be longer due to intentional increased fight time type changes.
Also there are a couple of new Greek units: Athenian & Corinthian hoplites which are of similar quality to the Spartans.

I've actually had relatively little trouble from them with my Rome campaign so far, with Pyhrrus majorly defeated (& killed) in the first battle & relatively easily mopped up.
Southern Italy fell under Roman influence after relatively little struggle.

Hastati losses have been fairly high but the Princepei have held up fine.

**Simetrical** · 03-25-2005, 03:49

Yeah, I think the hoplites may be a bit unbalanced in RTR. We're completely redoing unit stats in 6.0, though, so experiences with balance in 5.4 shouldn't hold over after then. The current unit stats, Hoplites vs. Principes, are as follows:

Attack: 12 (spear) or 7 (sword)/7
Charge: 2 (sword)/2
Armor: 6/5
Defense: 5/4
Shield: 9/8
Morale: 9 normal/11 disciplined
Cost: 440/500
Upkeep: 170/170

As you can see, things aren't entirely lopsided (remember pila), but they're pretty bad. In phalanx, Hoplites will chew up Principes; even out of it, they're more than a match except for morale. You could edit the stats yourself, or you could try focusing on lots of missile units—remember that the Greeks rely almost exclusively on the phalanx. Sorry for the inconvenience. All should be well in 6.0.

On a final note, be aware that the Greek phalanx isn't supposed to be all that vulnerable from the back, realistically speaking. Unlike the Macedonian-style phalangites (the ones with long pikes), traditional hoplites were capable of turning relatively quickly to face attacks. They shouldn't be slaughtered that much more than other infantry when attacked from behind or out of phalanx. Really, phalanx as modelled in-game is a poor representation of the Greek phalanx, and we may end up removing it from them.

-Simetrical

**Red Harvest** · 03-25-2005, 06:26

Is RTR at least making the hoplites vulnerable in sword melee? (By some factor or attribute that is not posted?) The Romans should be better swordsmen since they are trained more specifically for that skill and have appropriate gear specifically for it. The "spear" attribute should weaken hoplite spear attack, but the sword value should be unchanged (I have not checked.) 12 is a fairly high attack value for hoplites.

**Simetrical** · 03-27-2005, 06:29

If we incorporate SigniferOne's Hoplite Animations Mod, we'll quite likely ditch the swords (although I'm more or less guessing here, and it's not my decision to make). Now that I think about it, how would you fight with swords at all in a shield wall?

-Simetrical