Danish Campaign

[weegee]

I'm thinking about firing up a Danish campaign once I play around a little more with my initial Italian one. It seems to be a challenging scenario and since I'm still playing on normal level, it might even out the odds a bit.

Some questions. I'm trying to figure out the hierarchy of troops for the Danes since they seem to have many speciality units. Based on the unit guide reading and some posts here and there, I think I figured it out.

Axes: (in order of effectiveness)

Viking
Landsmen
Huscarles
Jons Viking

Sword:

Viking Carl
Beserker (I know this is a speciality unit. How do you build, btw, can't find on tech tree)


What about for spears, should I build the regular chain, i.e. spearmen, fuedal sergeant, Chiv sarge, etc. Or will the axemen handle the job? Same with swords, are the traditional sword builds necessary or just go with Viking Carl?

Seems like they have excellent infantry, but weak cavalry, and regular missiles. I've gotten spoiled with the ILI, so most of my tactics are infantry based anyway, so I think I can do some damage with the Huscarles.

Please correct any of my errors and/or give me advice.

[weegee]

btw, on the landsmen, do you have to build a motte to get them, or can you skip and upgrade to Keep?

[Procrustes]

I love playing with the Danes. I generally build lots of vikings and few of the other troops - they are quite cheap as the Danes, and although you will experience a lot of casualties they are quite study - they fight until there are few men in a unit left. If you take Norway they come out with a +1 valor bonus. Huscarles are awesome, but also expensive to get. (You can get vikings with only a fort.)

Axe units are pretty good all-round troops - they can take out swords, spears and they are armor-peircing so they are even somewhat effective if you can charge them into some cav. You will take casualties, though - it's just a given. Build the spears, you will need them. The danes don't have any mounted missiles, so you may want to keep an eye out for any mercs.

You never need to build the motes or other add-ons to your fortification to build units - it's only for added defense in case of a seige.

Make sure you take and develop Sweden - it is a real money maker once you get farms and trade going. Also, it has iron so you can build a weapons smith if you want. (I ussually go straight for the economic stuff in Sweden so I don't get as much use out of the iron deposits.)

[Adrian II]

One other suggestion: don't be stingy when it comes to building those Longboats, you are going to need them from the word Go so start building them in Denmark right away. On land you can make do with Royals and Vikings for a while, that is: until they are outclassed by MAA and Sergeants. But without trade and sea lane protection you will very shortly be one very dead Dane.
Enjoy!

[weegee]

thanks. Do the Carls make good swordsmen or are you better off going for MAAs?

[BAD]

If I play with danes i'd try to get to Huscarle tech as fast as possible. Maybe even get it in Sweden for the wepon upgrades (even though its trade value is better). Why? I would put them in the same category as Varangian Guard and Janissary Heavy Infantry. Anything they touch tends to die fast . Make sure you get Heavy Cavalry in the flank or rear though ;) .

I think besrekers only appear in a rebellion, like Sherwood foresters.

And I would try and make my armies use the viking units mostly with as few generic units as possible. What the point in playing Danes if you just churn out FMAA and the like. My thoughts anyways.

Good luck with the crazed axeweiding maniacs !!!

[Odin]

Make sure you take and develop Sweden - it is a real money maker once you get farms and trade going. Also, it has iron so you can build a weapons smith if you want. (I ussually go straight for the economic stuff in Sweden so I don't get as much use out of the iron deposits.)

Good advice here, sweden should always be priority one with Denmark, economically and for that all important steel that will give you weapon upgrades later.

I like the danes to, but to be honest none of thier units are spectacular or battle winners. The viking units have good morale stats which keeps them in the fight longer but once everyone else starts getting better quality infantry, vikings become rather ordinary, rather fast.

the Baltic is a nice playground to expand in. If your playing with out a mod Lithuania is a good province to focus on. Decent mid cavalry and very good position to expand into the steps or south into the balkans.

[weegee]

As always, great advice guys.

That's a very good point, Bad, about the nationalized units. That's one of the things that is sort of misdesigned in the game, I think. Each faction should have their speciality troops, and other than some common generic troops like low level spears, swords, archers, etc. that's what the army should be based on. That way each faction has a strength and weakness in battle. In the game it seems like you can build x to beat y, and then when you're done with y, you'll build a to beat b. The Danes should have to conquer with Huscarles, the Italians with ILI, the Spanish with Jinetes, etc. Know what I mean? I think each player is allowed too much flexibility in the composition of their army and are able to re-structure it too easily from scenario to scenario.

On a total side note, another thing I'm sort of disappointed in the game with is that it would have been a nice feature to be able to review your king's (and past kings', for that matter) legacy. i.e. year he became king, what provinces he added/lost, battles he won/lost, how much he improved/decreased economy, etc. It would have been a nice touch to review who were your most powerful leaders because by the third or fourth king, I forget who did what.

Still though, awesome game. Best $20 I ever spent.

[BAD]

As always, great advice guys.

That's a very good point, Bad, about the nationalized units. That's one of the things that is sort of misdesigned in the game, I think. Each faction should have their speciality troops, and other than some common generic troops like low level spears, swords, archers, etc. that's what the army should be based on. That way each faction has a strength and weakness in battle. In the game it seems like you can build x to beat y, and then when you're done with y, you'll build a to beat b. The Danes should have to conquer with Huscarles, the Italians with ILI, the Spanish with Jinetes, etc. Know what I mean? I think each player is allowed too much flexibility in the composition of their army and are able to re-structure it too easily from scenario to scenario.

On a total side note, another thing I'm sort of disappointed in the game with is that it would have been a nice feature to be able to review your king's (and past kings', for that matter) legacy. i.e. year he became king, what provinces he added/lost, battles he won/lost, how much he improved/decreased economy, etc. It would have been a nice touch to review who were your most powerful leaders because by the third or fourth king, I forget who did what.

Still though, awesome game. Best $20 I ever spent.

With a multigame me and my housemate had (taking a kings reign each), we wrote down what each other did, important things like provinces take, huge battles crusades launched etc. etc. Made a gameplan for each king before we started based on vices and virtues they had. Then left a will as well for the next king. was up to the heir though wether to actually try to accomplish the will. . . Was a great campaign though with a written history to go with it.

[_Aetius_]

If you dont get trade going with the danes pretty sharpish youll be bankrupt, I always try and grab Livonia before Novgorod can claim it, and also pomerania and prussia, usually i wait for the inevitable civil war in the holy roman empire and pick off some territory, which is usually followed by a danish civil war for some reason that always happens to me once ive conquered abit of territory with the danes.

Then the usual raids on britain and northern france, ive ended up with an empire with the danes which was all of northern europe, all the steppes, much of central europe which was only rivalled by the papacy which owned about 60% of the map which was a shock. The danes are simple on glorious achievements to, there the only faction ive ended the game with maximum points with.

[bretwalda]

(...) which was only rivalled by the papacy which owned about 60% of the map which was a shock. The danes are simple on glorious achievements to, there the only faction ive ended the game with maximum points with.

Sorry for being OFF. It never happened to me that one faction managed to grow real big (except me). How does it influence the AI? The overgrown AI is getting ganged upon? Can one still be at peace with the behemoth?

[Procrustes]

thanks. Do the Carls make good swordsmen or are you better off going for MAAs?

Carls are almost as good as feudal maa - one point lower defense. But they are a lot cheaper to build and support.

BTW - huscarles go away after 1205. The Danish become more of a generic Catholic army later in the game. I still have a blast w/ them, though.

[_Aetius_]

Sorry for being OFF. It never happened to me that one faction managed to grow real big (except me). How does it influence the AI? The overgrown AI is getting ganged upon? Can one still be at peace with the behemoth?

Ive no idea how the papacy got to this level, i remember they fighting in the balkans and then suddenly every other faction fell to pieces and the pope nailed them lol. We were at war with each other alot but the game was right near the end so they couldnt hurt me alot.

[ajaxfetish]

That's a very good point, Bad, about the nationalized units. That's one of the things that is sort of misdesigned in the game, I think. Each faction should have their speciality troops, and other than some common generic troops like low level spears, swords, archers, etc. that's what the army should be based on. That way each faction has a strength and weakness in battle. In the game it seems like you can build x to beat y, and then when you're done with y, you'll build a to beat b. The Danes should have to conquer with Huscarles, the Italians with ILI, the Spanish with Jinetes, etc. Know what I mean? I think each player is allowed too much flexibility in the composition of their army and are able to re-structure it too easily from scenario to scenario.

I think the main reason for this is historical accuracy, which is a really big deal in this game and which is one of the biggest reasons I like it. They figure, if this nation used these kinds of troops we'd better make them available to them, even if lots of others used them, too. Some factions get unique units and some get a lot (i.e. Turks), but a lot of troops didn't vary too much from place to place.

[repone]

Well if I remember correctly, I've seen a few posts were people were trying to use only the nationalized units .. it can be a fun wat to play the game, and you'll have to be creative with some factions

*just adding my 2 cents*

[hungry]

Joms vikings and berserkers are only available in the Vikings campaign, not the Midieval campaign. Thralls, carls, landsmenn, and huscarles can only be trained in Early and only in Scandinavia. Normal vikings trained in Norway have a valor bonus and the Danes get a discount when training them. I would train vikings, thralls, and huscarles. Vikings and huscarles tear through everything. Thralls are good for garrison duty and are much better than peasants in a fight. Their morale, however, is horrible and so shouldn't be used to replace spears.

Yes, you can directly upgrade to a keep to build landsmenn. They are weaker than the valor 1 vikings that you can train in Norway and thus, IMO, shouldn't be trained unless you're playing the Viking campaign. Valor 1 vikings are also stronger than FMAA.

Early on, you don't need spears or archers unless you're bordering a bunch of high valor royals, in which case train some spears and archers.

If you're a risk taker, you can try taking Sweden with only your king. Attacking with a larger force will often prompt the rebels to flee to Norway and thus make taking that province even harder. Beware of the valor 1 viking rebels holding Norway. Valor 1 vikings are tough SOBs in the early going.

---
BTW, the smilies on this forum are sweet.

[Zarax]

I'm modding the game so that there is a stronger focus on national units plus a lot of other gameplay adjustments.
Let me know if you are interested.
BTW, there is an excellent point in favour of Carls and Landsmenn VS vanilla vikings:
They won't drop like flies under arrow fire as they're armoured.
If you can't get reinforcements quickly after a battle you'll start to really appreciate every extra point of defence you can afford, especially earlier with the Danish

[ajaxfetish]

Joms vikings and berserkers are only available in the Vikings campaign, not the Midieval campaign.

According to the VI manual, berserkers can appear in the medieval campaign, but only for rebels. So if you want 'em you've got to get a rebellion with them and then bribe the rebels. Not easy or efficient, but still possible.

[hungry]

Nah, all three units have large shields. Vanilla vikings don't drop like flies under missile fire unless shot in the back. My first campaign was with the Danes I remember how much my archers sucked against the rebel vikings. I thought it was because of the archers as I didn't realize how effective large shields are against missiles. It would've helped if the animation showed this, but it doesn't so you just have to imagine it.

There's no reason to build carls in the Midieval campaign. The landsmenn's advantage is that they are noble (can be trained with command stars), but so are huscarles. I would only train landsmenn if I wanted to put my early expansion into overdrive, otherwise I would wait for huscarles.

[Kommodus]

I'm thinking about firing up a Danish campaign once I play around a little more with my initial Italian one. It seems to be a challenging scenario and since I'm still playing on normal level, it might even out the odds a bit.

Others have offered plenty of advice on how to play as the Danes, so let me just add this - play on Hard difficulty. Trust me, after playing one campaign, you can handle it, and the game won't be quite such a pushover. Don't be fooled by the difficult-looking scenario; starting out with a tiny kingdom is really not much of a handicap.

Hey, if you're feeling really ambitious, you might even try expert. However, I've found my own expert campaigns to be kind of annoying, since the AI gets a big morale bonus that keeps their units from running away until they're almost completely destroyed. This sometimes takes the fun out of executing good battlefield maneuvers.

[weegee]

[QUOTE=Kommodus]Others have offered plenty of advice on how to play as the Danes, so let me just add this - play on Hard difficulty. Trust me, after playing one campaign, you can handle it, and the game won't be quite such a pushover. Don't be fooled by the difficult-looking scenario; starting out with a tiny kingdom is really not much of a handicap.

QUOTE]


Kommodus,

I wish I would have seen this before I started my campaign. Let me paint the picture thus far:

Year: 1210
Provinces Controlled (pretty much in order taken): Denmark, Sweden, Norway, Ireland, Lithuania, Saxony, Smolensk, Cherigov, Muscovy, Ryazan, Volga-Bulgaria, Novgorod, Livonia, Finland, Brandenburg, Genoa (weird, yes I know), Kiev, and Pereyaslavl.
Treasury: $375k Florins

History:

Took Sweden on first turn, rebels retreated to Norway. Had a very nice fight for Norway with King, Prince, 2 vikings, and 1 archer. Kept out flanking them until they ended up on the downslope. Ireland was ripe to be taken. Quickly expanded into the Steppes until Novgorod got antsy and attacked. Bad move. They were wiped out in 2 turns. Saxony and Brandenburg became rebel, so I took them to buffer Denmark.

Then there was about 30 years of peace, at least with my nation. Everyone was at war with the Germans, however. In those 30 years, many longboats were built, and my profit went from 200 Florins, to about 13500 a turn. Scary! Each province had something building, always.

I slowly built up the army and didn't go too big until about 1190 or so. Luckily I was left in peace. Then I started building units as well, in almost every turn. Lots of Gallowglasses from Ireland, and armored up Huscarles.

To stir things up, Genoa went rebel, so I landed an amphib attack using troops from Ireland, Saxony, and Lithuania. I think this rubbed many countries the wrong away because all of a sudden I was in the southern side of the map. The very next turn (1204) Byz started sinking my ships. So I countered by hitting Kiev and Pereya. 3 turns later, English start sinking my ships as well. They must want Ireland. And lastly, Hungary decides to invade Brandenburg (bad move, 1200 casualities to 200, even though outnumbered 7 to 5).

The future:

I'm building caravels like there's no tomorrow. Army can last at least 10 years of heavy fighting before wil start to wear out, so focus is on regaining the sea. I think I'm done fighting against Byz because I want them to linger a little longer to take the brunt of the Horde. So I will focus on the Hungarians and try to connect Scan with Baltics by swooping Pomer, Pruss, Pol, and Volyhynia.

Not sure what to do about English right now. They're probably second strongest in the game controlling most of modern day France. I might ignore their aggression until I can settle the Hungarians. Saxony will most likely be the sight of a large battle.

Amazingly, even though my trade routes are completely cut, I'm operating at only a -1k loss. With my treasury, I can operate like this for centuries, even with building cues.

Anyway, a super long post to say that I'm having a lot of fun with the Danes, but it seems like the game (overall) is a little too easy. Although my battles are a little more balanced with the Danes. Lets face it, Italians with ILI is almost like cheating. Other than maybe a disaster with the Horde if I misplay that, or some internal breakdown, I'm unstoppable. In the next 40-50 years, the map will probably broken done the middle with me owning the east side, and English and Spanish owning the west side, minus Ireland and Genoa. In both my campaigns, muslim factions get wiped out pretty much by start of high period. Is that typical?

[Kommodus]

Kommodus,

I wish I would have seen this before I started my campaign.
...
Anyway, a super long post to say that I'm having a lot of fun with the Danes, but it seems like the game (overall) is a little too easy.

Yeah, I bet you do. :) Even on hard you'll probably find the game a little too easy, and once you get big (as you have done), you'll be truly unstoppable. Not even a disaster against the Horde will put much of a dent in your kingdom now. The only thing that could do that would be a big civil war or mass rebellions.

From what I've heard, one way to add significant challenge to the game would be to use a mod, in particular WesW's MedMod. I can't speak from experience, however, since I haven't tried that myself. (I don't have VI, so I don't think I can.)

In both my campaigns, muslim factions get wiped out pretty much by start of high period. Is that typical?

Not necessarily. I think a lot of it depends on what era you start in. If you start in early (which it seems you usually do), the Byzantines will probably beat the Turks and be on their way to becoming a significant power. If you start in high, however, the Turks tend to be victorious in this struggle. It's true that Spain usually defeats the Almohads (and can then go on to conquer much of the Middle East), but I've seen the Almohads defeat Spain and then push deep into Southern Europe. For some reason I've never seen Egypt do much, but I'm sure other people have. If anything, they seem to get into fights with the Turks or Almohads - until you come along and sweep them away!

[repone]

t's true that Spain usually defeats the Almohads (and can then go on to conquer much of the Middle East), but I've seen the Almohads defeat Spain and then push deep into Southern Europe. For some reason I've never seen Egypt do much, but I'm sure other people have. If anything, they seem to get into fights with the Turks or Almohads - until you come along and sweep them away!

Well weird things do happen sometimes ... never underestimate the enemy : as an old sergeant once said "Never assume! Because if you do, punk, you'll make an A** of U and ME!!! "

I have a campaign running, as the Danes, where the Almohads were indeed defeated by Spain, but Constantinople is no more, and a great pyramid is being built in its place. Then, a couple of failed crusades later, the Spanish faction ceased to exist. Now you have an Egyptian Empire from Southern France to the Black Sea, and nobody is doing anything (no crusade, no raids, nothing).

I'll probably have to be creative on that one ...

[el_slapper]

Danes rock. I think that assuming you do unite Scandinavia early, they are the most powerful nation of the game. For one single reason : noone seems to attack them. Have 2-3 ships in every seazone, conquer rebels, & you'll rule without a threat.

[King Clas]

Well weird things do happen sometimes ... never underestimate the enemy : as an old sergeant once said "Never assume! Because if you do, punk, you'll make an A** of U and ME!!! "

I have a campaign running, as the Danes, where the Almohads were indeed defeated by Spain, but Constantinople is no more, and a great pyramid is being built in its place. Then, a couple of failed crusades later, the Spanish faction ceased to exist. Now you have an Egyptian Empire from Southern France to the Black Sea, and nobody is doing anything (no crusade, no raids, nothing).

I'll probably have to be creative on that one ...

hehehe reminded me as a Almohad campaign of mine where I was running mayhem into France and my ally Egypt was trampling down Bynzantine, then the Egyptians decide to invade the italian peninsula and soon they defeat the papacy and a message comes upp that a puppet pope has been but into place :P. Go figure a muslim pope.

[nick_maxell]

Danes rock. I think that assuming you do unite Scandinavia early, they are the most powerful nation of the game. For one single reason : noone seems to attack them. Have 2-3 ships in every seazone, conquer rebels, & you'll rule without a threat.

I usually get attacked by the HRE as soon as the French or Italians start nibbeling them but its a good excuse to grab Saxony - thats assuming the HRE are still not in total rebellion (about half of the time I play the Danes) - they will attack for sure in GA games if you own the baltic coast (their GA goal) - even in non GA games it seems to me the AI is playing along the same strategy for most of the fractions (ie the French ALWAYS crusade for Syria and the English for Palestine first) maybe just my imagination.

As for the Danes - the only annoying thing is that it takes some time to get the cash rolling - but for Sweden the Scandinavian provinces have no good farming income so it usually takes me about 50 yrs to be able to build what I want (when the first good trade routes come online) - raiding early into the baltics and steppes helps to get some money but its hard to hold onto these lands so I usually just move on until the army gets beaten.

One thing I haven t seen mentioned in the thread is the importance to grab some land in the western and eastern Med - it cuts fleet upkeep by half if you can get an island in each and it helps later to build ships locally rather than moving them all the way from the Baltic.

One post mentiones huge AI empires - in my experience they only last for about 20 - 40 years before the break apart again - in my current game as the Danes the Spanish range from southern France to Constantinople but lately have to fight rebellions/reemergences every turn in a couple of provinces so I give them until their current king dies before civil war or the Horde if they come earlier than that (its about 1215)

anyway - gotta run - have a "date" with the French in Flanders



nick

[Ash]

After some failures I finally am having a decent Danish campaign. It did require some patience though. Money was a big problem till I got trade going (pointless it seems to build anything but shipyards and economics the first 50 years or so).

I didn't build much of a traderoute though. In my game the French got real big real fast. They conquered nearly entire western Europe and north Africa except for Italy.

So I had to react. I had 2 Longboats per tile up to Spain which would prove vital for my succes. My fleet was concentrated in the English channal.

Around 1170 I was able to start building some good stuff. I had conquered Scandinavia, Lithuania, Ireland and Saxony before that date. So I was pretty small.
I could've gone the cheap route and pumped out nothing but Vikings in Norway. But I decided to pump out Landsmenn and Huscarls as well (what's the point of playing the Danish if you don't go for the good stuff?).
Didn't bother with archers and I had only a handfull of Mounted Seargants. Did have quite a few RKs though.
Of course it did mean I was running a huge debt so I had to attack quick.

Round 1180 I decided to attack. I did have a large army filled with axe-weilding guys but my army was definitely much smaller then the French in the region.
I went for the Low countries and Nothern France first. The French just kept retreating as soon as they saw me and never put up a fight. It was at sea however that my victory was insured.

Large empire need to stay connected with the King or rebellions will break out. If enemy ships disrupt that connection...well it did and 3 (!) factions the French had previously destroyed reappeared. It was game over for the Frenchies. It also didn't help they kept retreating which put a serious dent on their King's influence.

My tiny Denmark saved the world near 1190. She beat an enemy 5 times her size or something.
I lost a few ships but my fleet is still in tact in the nothern seas. The few battles I did in Nothern France were decided in my favour (no brilliant tactics, just running up the slopes with Landsmenn and Huscarls and flanking with cavalry).

Downside is though I only have a few years left to crank out Vikings. I think I'll just stop then and enjoy what Denmark had accomplished before 1205...:)

[Procrustes]

Cool. BTW, you'll still be able to crank out Vikings after 1205, but not Huscarles. Try to make sure you are teched up enough to make some of the new units that become available after 1205 - like halbs, arbs, CK, CS, and CMAA. (Especially halbs & arbs, imo - you'll need them if you take on the GH.)

[_Aetius_]

The danish army I think anyway, isnt suited to large armies, I think small, flexible task forces are far better than your standard western army.

Even in the 14th and 15th century when the game was in a highly advanced stage, I was launching invasions with only 1200 men tops, preferring to defeat armies and withdraw rather than conquer and rule.

Even when more advanced units are available I prefer fast moving lighter armies with vikings always present, I leave heavier troops on garrison duty and send my hordes of viking raider cavalry, vikings, huscarles and landsmen/carls with archer support to terrorise the surrounding rivals to my kingdom

Also mercenaries play a larger part in danish armies than most other factions I use, when the Mongols turned up and threatened my large possessions in the steppes I hired hundreds of English Byzantine and Italian mercenaries which added what was needed to my Danish armies which frankly dont stand a chance against the Horde.

The Danes are once youve built them up one of the more interesting factions to go and offer a different experience to most other catholic factions.

[Zarax]

Wherever there's a bridge you can vanquish the horde with simple spears and a bit of cavalry.
I vanquished the horde using a mix of steppe cav + heavies, alans, szekely and avar nobles (i was playing with the hungarians), dismounting the light cav into spears and using the heavies to hunt down the mongol warriors while the ranged troops came to take care of horse archers and naphta.
With such teams i managed to inflict 2:1 to 3:1 loss ratio and armies ranging between 1000 and 2000 units.
Beware, outside bridge defences such a tactic is suicidal as without chockepoints dismounted spears cannot cover the front and are easily overwhelmed when stretched.