scythed chariots

[Rodion Romanovich]

Reply regarding roman chariots: I read that romans used scythed chariots against Pyrrhus's elephants, which is slightly before the time of the mod, but it would have been theoretically possible for romans to continue the making of such chariots after that because they had the technology. The reason why they didn't was due to the weaknesses of chariots, weaknesses that aren't illustrated in the vanilla R:TW engine. I'd like it very much if EB could make the player realize why chariots became obsolete. First of all, they are useless in terrain that's only slightly more complicated than a field, secondly it costs more with 2 horses than 1, and finally their manouverability is restricted. Thirdly, they are harder to bring to the battlefield, and four: there were many very effective counters for chariots that made them less useful - for example letting the chariots through your lines by stepping aside etc. (an exploit of their lack of manouverability), but that function does not exist in R:TW. Oddly, neither does vanilla R:TW seem to add any penalty for chariots or cavalry when they are on steep hills, where they in real life would be less effective than on moderately steep hills. Chariots are more sensitive to steepness of hills than cavalry though.

In R:TW, chariots are sometimes MORE useful than cavalry, so if romans would get the realistical ABILITY to build chariots that would be an improvement for them, which is strange. It must be admitted though that a heads-on charge chariots to cavs would probably be won by the chariots or at least be suicide for the cavalry. A chariot charge to the rear of a pinned enemy formation would also do more damage than a cavalry charge to the rear of an enemy formation - during the IMPACT phase. During the coming meleé, the lack of manouverability would mean the chariots would get into trouble if the enemy formation didn't rout after the impact phase of that charge. So - it should be mentioned that chariots still had abilities and strengths cavs DIDN'T have. However in a cavs vs chariot battle the cavs would of course scatter and get out of the way of the chariots, then attack the flanks or rear of them (thus once again exploiting lack of manouverability), and easily win. Once again, this ability is not included in R:TW, if chariots charge your cavs you can't get out of the way. Oddly enough chariots are faster than cavs, IMO that seems unrealistic but for that particular idea I have no proofs/sources.

IMO the most realistic implementation would be to add ability for romans to build chariots, but on the battlefields it should be clear WHY the real romans, despite the ability, didn't produce chariots after some time between 300 BC and 270 BC. So the abilities to scatter formations and let chariots through them should IMO be included, maybe as a toggle button like "skirmish mode".

What do you think of that, and is it possible to implement?

[Shadar]

Not to mention, scythed chariots was EXTREMELY limited by terrain. They were used by Darius in one of his battles against Alexander (stupid leaky memory, keep forgetting names!). In that battle, Darius had to PURPOSELY smooth over a section of the battlefield to use the chariots, since broken ground would have destroyed their wheels VERY quickly.

For the romans living in mountainous Italy, it was a bit hard to use chariots due to terrain difficulties. This is why the Celts, living in grasslands where farmland was plentiful, used chariots, but they used chariots in a different way to scythed chariots, using them pretty much as an effective taxiing system to get warriors into battle and out of them, NOT in the fighting. Julius Caesar comments on this usage of the chariot, and his quote says something about how this use of chariots combined the maneuvrability of cavalry and the staying power of infantry.

Plus, by that time Rome is set in, many armies in the world (besides the Barbarians really) would be disciplined enough for the scythed chariots to be completely and utterly useless.

[Oaty]

Is it possible to arm chariots with javelins or is that hardcoded?

[Furious Mental]

Chariots in R:TW are weak against elephants? They actually seem to be one of the more effective counters to elephants. Not as good as a phalanx, but better than any other cav, in my experience.

[Rodion Romanovich]

Chariots in R:TW are weak against elephants? They actually seem to be one of the more effective counters to elephants. Not as good as a phalanx, but better than any other cav, in my experience.

Cathapracts are the only cavs that can kill elephants effectively in vanilla R:TW. Chariots usually get slaughtered (which IMO is bad especially for scythed ones who should hurt the eles a little more than they do in vanilla R:TW), as the eles have a +attack bonus vs chariots. Chariots vs eles is almost as bad as wardogs vs eles, and I believe many of you have seen that .wma file where 3 armored eles take on 20 units of wardogs? If not, open a custom battle and zoom in the front of the eles for a good laugh .

[jerby]

ok, that's about all to answer my question, thnx

[anonymous_joe]

Not to mention, scythed chariots was EXTREMELY limited by terrain. They were used by Darius in one of his battles against Alexander (stupid leaky memory, keep forgetting names!). In that battle, Darius had to PURPOSELY smooth over a section of the battlefield to use the chariots, since broken ground would have destroyed their wheels VERY quickly.

It was Gaugemala. And the scythe chariots were obsolete even then, (330-ish), Darius brought them back as a surprise, but the Agrianians and other light troops made mince meat out of them.

[Mr Frost]

They could be very effective if cleverly used .
Pontus used them in 61 BC, on the plains before Ennium to fatally cripple a Roman army {which was then destroyed with 38,000 Romans dead} . First the light horse feined a charge kicking up lots of dust which conceiled the 500 scythed chariots and 10,000 Galatian mercenary infantry following close behind . The cavalry threw some javlins at the Romans to provoke them into forming tesudos and then quickly wheeled to the flanks to occupy {and destroy} the Roman cavary and the chariots with Galatian infantry following charged the Roman lines whom were too late spotting the threat to reform {their tightly formed tesudos were highly vunerable to such a charge} . The chariots smashed great , bloody holes in the Romans' lines that the Galations poured through to have a feild day of slaughtering {or a happyhour perhaps ;p} .
The first Roman line simply ceased to exist , and the second and third were very badly mauled . That the Romans chose to charge the Pontic main army later suggests that the general wasn't very good that day as they were already beaten by that charge .


Pontus might be the only "faction" in the games' time period that actually had a net positive experience with using scythed chariots {the Selucids had a questionable time with them , Rome only used something barley similar twice and Egypt never had the at all} .

[jerby]

well, egypt had chariots. but then it was in 1200BC, acctually. the entire egypt missed it by 900 years!

[Reverend Joe]

Here' a suggestion that'll piss off a lot of people:

just take out chariots entirely, except for Pontus. From what I've heard, the Seleucid chariots were ineffective, and the Britons used them mainly for transportation, so they can be dropped there; also, as it has been said, they simply didn't exist elsewhere.

Correct me if i'm wrong, but don't be condascending.

[Sarcasm]

From what I've heard, the Seleucid chariots were ineffective (...)

Yes, they were. The art of driving a chariot effectively in war had disapeared from the Near East almost entirely. Still, my opinion is that the Seleucids should have them anyway. But this is not up to me...

(...) the Britons used them mainly for transportation, so they can be dropped there;

Actually, it was sort of a platform for leaders to fight from. We have no way of knowing how trully effective they were, but they existed. Some were even present when Caesar first landed in the southern shores of Britannia, near present-day Dover (I think...).

(...) also, as it has been said, they simply didn't exist elsewhere.

Some Celtic cultures still used them to a certain degree, the fact that they were declining in use, doesn´t mean they didn´t exist then.

[Hakonarson]

Reply regarding roman chariots: I read that romans used scythed chariots against Pyrrhus's elephants, which is slightly before the time of the mod, but it would have been theoretically possible for romans to continue the making of such chariots after that because they had the technology.

These were not realy chariots - they were carts, filled with slingers and javelinmen, and hung about with spiked beams and firepots IIRC - I think they arementioned in Plutarch's "Life" of Phyruss.

they were not a notable success - I seem to remember they are attributed with holding up the elephants for a small amount of time only.

More like mobile fortifications than chariots.

[Rodion Romanovich]

These were not realy chariots - they were carts, filled with slingers and javelinmen, and hung about with spiked beams and firepots IIRC - I think they arementioned in Plutarch's "Life" of Phyruss.

they were not a notable success - I seem to remember they are attributed with holding up the elephants for a small amount of time only.

More like mobile fortifications than chariots.

Cool, have any pics of them? How did they do in combat vs other units than elephants? The lack of success is definitely true because afaik the romans never used the chariots after the wars with Pyrrhus.

[Kraxis]

The warcarts themselves did the job well enough, the elephants didn't like them at all, but then the elephant drivers merely headed the elephants out of the way, problem solved. Then the Romans on the carts could just stand there being ignored. Until I guess some infantry took them out.