scythed chariots

[jerby]

hi all,

I read chariots are outdated by this time, so they probably will not be featured in EB. But I still got a question: why do the chariots get a negative bonus vs elies? romans occasionally used scythed chariots AGAINST elies to hamstring them. however the roman example was about 100 AD so out of your timespan.

EDIT: I'm probably becoming a pain in your butt kevhlan, sorry, I'm just fascinated by the time-period, and even more excited about EB.

[Furious Mental]

They were outdated by the time of the mod but then used in 100 AD?

[jerby]

ok, that is a major typing error of mine.
the real question should be: why do SCYTHED chariots get a negative bonus when later in 100 ad ( guesstimation) the romans used horses with blades at the side for hamstringing.

the romans didn't use chariots, sorry, they used scythes. probably on cataphracts or somethning they seemed to use later on. maybe it was even later, i have no idea.

[khelvan]

Britons, Gauls, Pontus at least will have chariots.

[Craterus]

pontus with chariots? that should help them against the armenians (they always lose straightaway)

that gives me an idea, i will start a pontic campaign later and annihalate the armenians!!

[DemonArchangel]

Didn't the Seleucids use Scythed Chariots?

[Steppe Merc]

I believe they did.

[ParthianWarrior]

Yes they did.

[Teleklos Archelaou]

Yeah, they had them, but there were problems (which would transfer over into any decisions about including them in a mod like this). They were almost always ineffective and modern scholars think that their retention for a while ("a short history") in the Seleukid army might have been more along the lines of wishful thinking than as a result of their battlefield performance. A charge of scythed chariots in a battle in Cilicia with Demetrius was noted to have taken place without success. Their ineffectiveness at Magnesia caused their total removal from the army.

[jerby]

ok, but then the question, why do they have an -6 elie bonus when they are perfect for hamstringing ( cuttign legs up) and how will this be in eb?

[Hakonarson]

ok, but then the question, why do they have an -6 elie bonus when they are perfect for hamstringing ( cuttign legs up) and how will this be in eb?

is that a -6 elephant "bonus"? If so then it is because horses are scared of elephants and won't go near them if they can help it!!

Remember what a scythed chariot is - it seems that for the most part the drivers leapt out befor impact - thus giving the horses soem time to slow down and/or swerve. So they are completely useless after that - without drivers they shuold be amok immediately!!

And they should have a melee factor of 0 - they are utterly useless when stationary.

However they were useful on occasion - including in this era - there's a description in one of Plutarch's Lives IIRC (Maybe Sulla?), of a Pontic army using only scythed chariots and light troops to defeat the Bithynans - a Thracian tribe that lived in north-west Asia Minor.

Also there's an instancebefore this era of 2 scythed chariots and some Persian cavalry catching some Greek hoplites - the chariots charge and keep eth hoplites dispersed, so the cavalry can do the "real" damage and ride them down.

[Sarcasm]

Also there's an instancebefore this era of 2 scythed chariots and some Persian cavalry catching some Greek hoplites - the chariots charge and keep eth hoplites dispersed, so the cavalry can do the "real" damage and ride them down.

Which is a very valid strategy in RTW.....go ahead and try it.

[Rodion Romanovich]

Reply regarding roman chariots: I read that romans used scythed chariots against Pyrrhus's elephants, which is slightly before the time of the mod, but it would have been theoretically possible for romans to continue the making of such chariots after that because they had the technology. The reason why they didn't was due to the weaknesses of chariots, weaknesses that aren't illustrated in the vanilla R:TW engine. I'd like it very much if EB could make the player realize why chariots became obsolete. First of all, they are useless in terrain that's only slightly more complicated than a field, secondly it costs more with 2 horses than 1, and finally their manouverability is restricted. Thirdly, they are harder to bring to the battlefield, and four: there were many very effective counters for chariots that made them less useful - for example letting the chariots through your lines by stepping aside etc. (an exploit of their lack of manouverability), but that function does not exist in R:TW. Oddly, neither does vanilla R:TW seem to add any penalty for chariots or cavalry when they are on steep hills, where they in real life would be less effective than on moderately steep hills. Chariots are more sensitive to steepness of hills than cavalry though.

In R:TW, chariots are sometimes MORE useful than cavalry, so if romans would get the realistical ABILITY to build chariots that would be an improvement for them, which is strange. It must be admitted though that a heads-on charge chariots to cavs would probably be won by the chariots or at least be suicide for the cavalry. A chariot charge to the rear of a pinned enemy formation would also do more damage than a cavalry charge to the rear of an enemy formation - during the IMPACT phase. During the coming meleé, the lack of manouverability would mean the chariots would get into trouble if the enemy formation didn't rout after the impact phase of that charge. So - it should be mentioned that chariots still had abilities and strengths cavs DIDN'T have. However in a cavs vs chariot battle the cavs would of course scatter and get out of the way of the chariots, then attack the flanks or rear of them (thus once again exploiting lack of manouverability), and easily win. Once again, this ability is not included in R:TW, if chariots charge your cavs you can't get out of the way. Oddly enough chariots are faster than cavs, IMO that seems unrealistic but for that particular idea I have no proofs/sources.

IMO the most realistic implementation would be to add ability for romans to build chariots, but on the battlefields it should be clear WHY the real romans, despite the ability, didn't produce chariots after some time between 300 BC and 270 BC. So the abilities to scatter formations and let chariots through them should IMO be included, maybe as a toggle button like "skirmish mode".

What do you think of that, and is it possible to implement?

[Shadar]

Not to mention, scythed chariots was EXTREMELY limited by terrain. They were used by Darius in one of his battles against Alexander (stupid leaky memory, keep forgetting names!). In that battle, Darius had to PURPOSELY smooth over a section of the battlefield to use the chariots, since broken ground would have destroyed their wheels VERY quickly.

For the romans living in mountainous Italy, it was a bit hard to use chariots due to terrain difficulties. This is why the Celts, living in grasslands where farmland was plentiful, used chariots, but they used chariots in a different way to scythed chariots, using them pretty much as an effective taxiing system to get warriors into battle and out of them, NOT in the fighting. Julius Caesar comments on this usage of the chariot, and his quote says something about how this use of chariots combined the maneuvrability of cavalry and the staying power of infantry.

Plus, by that time Rome is set in, many armies in the world (besides the Barbarians really) would be disciplined enough for the scythed chariots to be completely and utterly useless.

[Oaty]

Is it possible to arm chariots with javelins or is that hardcoded?

[Furious Mental]

Chariots in R:TW are weak against elephants? They actually seem to be one of the more effective counters to elephants. Not as good as a phalanx, but better than any other cav, in my experience.

[Rodion Romanovich]

Chariots in R:TW are weak against elephants? They actually seem to be one of the more effective counters to elephants. Not as good as a phalanx, but better than any other cav, in my experience.

Cathapracts are the only cavs that can kill elephants effectively in vanilla R:TW. Chariots usually get slaughtered (which IMO is bad especially for scythed ones who should hurt the eles a little more than they do in vanilla R:TW), as the eles have a +attack bonus vs chariots. Chariots vs eles is almost as bad as wardogs vs eles, and I believe many of you have seen that .wma file where 3 armored eles take on 20 units of wardogs? If not, open a custom battle and zoom in the front of the eles for a good laugh .

[jerby]

ok, that's about all to answer my question, thnx

[Hakonarson]

Reply regarding roman chariots: I read that romans used scythed chariots against Pyrrhus's elephants, which is slightly before the time of the mod, but it would have been theoretically possible for romans to continue the making of such chariots after that because they had the technology.

These were not realy chariots - they were carts, filled with slingers and javelinmen, and hung about with spiked beams and firepots IIRC - I think they arementioned in Plutarch's "Life" of Phyruss.

they were not a notable success - I seem to remember they are attributed with holding up the elephants for a small amount of time only.

More like mobile fortifications than chariots.

[Rodion Romanovich]

These were not realy chariots - they were carts, filled with slingers and javelinmen, and hung about with spiked beams and firepots IIRC - I think they arementioned in Plutarch's "Life" of Phyruss.

they were not a notable success - I seem to remember they are attributed with holding up the elephants for a small amount of time only.

More like mobile fortifications than chariots.

Cool, have any pics of them? How did they do in combat vs other units than elephants? The lack of success is definitely true because afaik the romans never used the chariots after the wars with Pyrrhus.

[Kraxis]

The warcarts themselves did the job well enough, the elephants didn't like them at all, but then the elephant drivers merely headed the elephants out of the way, problem solved. Then the Romans on the carts could just stand there being ignored. Until I guess some infantry took them out.

[The Stranger]

is that a -6 elephant "bonus"? If so then it is because horses are scared of elephants and won't go near them if they can help it!!

Remember what a scythed chariot is - it seems that for the most part the drivers leapt out befor impact - thus giving the horses soem time to slow down and/or swerve. So they are completely useless after that - without drivers they shuold be amok immediately!!

And they should have a melee factor of 0 - they are utterly useless when stationary.

However they were useful on occasion - including in this era - there's a description in one of Plutarch's Lives IIRC (Maybe Sulla?), of a Pontic army using only scythed chariots and light troops to defeat the Bithynans - a Thracian tribe that lived in north-west Asia Minor.

Also there's an instancebefore this era of 2 scythed chariots and some Persian cavalry catching some Greek hoplites - the chariots charge and keep eth hoplites dispersed, so the cavalry can do the "real" damage and ride them down.

you can also just give the Eles the frighten_mounted ability

[jerby]

they already have that. ( or i'm mistaking, playing RTR now)

[Reverend Joe]

Just make the chariots really weak, if you can. Of course, I've tried doing this before, but the only thing that seems to slow down the chariots is making their attack value 0.

[Turin]

I'll weigh in on this from a gameplay point of view:

The only thing that makes chariots as effective as they are in the game is that they are unrealistically manuverable and way too good with acceleration. This is what allows them to run through infantry formations again and again without stopping.

If real chariots could do that, everyone would use them!

[jerby]

hi, just dug in export_descr_unit.

and I found this with sythed chariots

mount_effect elephant -47, camel -43, horse -43

so does this mean it get a -47 bonus against elies?

also why do horses run amok? is it like "AAAAAHH there is a giant blade on my back!!"
or do they get scared of the man in a chariot constanly following them?

[eadingas]

Did you ever ride a horse? They're dumb creatures and prone to temporary insanity :)

[Rodion Romanovich]

Did you ever ride a horse? They're dumb creatures and prone to temporary insanity :)

Sitting on a horse running amok is actually very fun, trust me! At least if you aren't on a battlefield, that is... They're preys, not carnivores, so they get scared by all sorts of sounds and visions and then try to run away, thinking it's predators that are after them.

[jerby]

then why doesn't regular cav run amok?

btw just edited, changed the chariots 'bonus' against elphant from -47 to -10. now two/three chariots can take down 1 war-elie

[Rodion Romanovich]

then why doesn't regular cav run amok?

btw just edited, changed the chariots 'bonus' against elphant from -47 to -10. now two/three chariots can take down 1 war-elie

Regular cavs DID run amok, but not as often as chariots. Horses require much training before they can be near large groups of people without being scared. I also believe cavalry horses got ear protection to muffle all sounds, at least during the Medieval period that is.

Apart from that, I can only guess. The horse is maybe easier to comfort when the rider is on top of it than when he isn't. Maybe the chariots also tended to keep their momentum and catch up with the horses sometimes, hitting their legs, I don't know... It depends on how they were attached to the horse. An alternative is that they were attached to a horse in a way that made a horse that slowed down be sort of shoved forward by the remaning momentum of the chariot, something that maybe scared them?