survived the romans

[caesar44]

is there is a nation that survived (exactly as it was , culture , language , religion , names and so on) the roman conquest and it is here today except for the jews ?

[Byzantine Prince]

There were more factors that contributed to the loss of identity in cultures. Christianity for example.

I would say though that the nations that weren't "conquered" by the Romans were the Germanic tribes, the Parthians, and Irish(lol).

[Hurin_Rules]

If you accept that every culture, even Jewish culture, has changed considerably in the last 1500 years, then yes, in addition to those mentioned, you'd have to add the Slavic tribes, the Greeks and perhaps also the Palestinians (who some historians believe trace their ancestry to the Philistines and/or Phoenecians).

[caesar44]

If you accept that every culture, even Jewish culture, has changed considerably in the last 1500 years, then yes, in addition to those mentioned, you'd have to add the Slavic tribes, the Greeks and perhaps also the Palestinians (who some historians believe trace their ancestry to the Philistines and/or Phoenecians).

ok
but it is steal a jewish people
the people had the same names , the same writing etc and most of all the same nationality , same religion , same language , same god
now , the slavic tribes did not came as a whole under roman rule
the greeks of 146 bce to let say 300 ce are not the greeks of our days in many aspects
about the palestinians - i consider you really did not mean what you have said

[Byzantine Prince]

the greeks of 146 bce to let say 300 ce are not the greeks of our days in many aspects

What aspect? We have the same language and writing(its changed in very minor ways). The only one is Christianity but that's not really Rome's fault. Guess who's fault that was?

[Watchman]

The Parthians got overthrown by one of their subjects, the Sassanids, a fair while before Rome even went under. I don't think they count.

The Greeks spent about four centuries or thereabouts under Ottoman Turkish influence. And before that was Byzantium, which was neither Rome nor ancient Greece. 'Nuff said, really.

The Arabs and Beduins would probably be a pretty good bet, though. The Romans and Persians weren't too interested in fighting over sand, sand and some more sand with them, the Migrations didn't touch them at all, and they got generally left to their own devices. So past the standard cultural exchange you get with trade and raiding and the rest of the routine, and what the passage of time now does to everyone, they "survived" right fine.

[caesar44]

What aspect? We have the same language and writing(its changed in very minor ways). The only one is Christianity but that's not really Rome's fault. Guess who's fault that was?

christianity in greece changed all !!! and i don't want to demonstrate because it could make an offense

heil socrates , plato and aristotle (where are their successors ?)

[Leet Eriksson]

The Arabs, as Watchman mentioned above, the peninsula was almost worthless, except Yemen, but no one would go through the entire peninsula to get there anyways, they could easily go through abyssinia to reach yemen.

[Mouzafphaerre]

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is there is a nation that survived (exactly as it was , culture , language , religion , names and so on) the roman conquest and it is here today except for the jews ?

China. They survived Rome (being too far away) but culdn't survive Mao. (Re: Cultural Revolution)
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[RollingWave]

China. They survived Rome (being too far away) but culdn't survive Mao. (Re: Cultural Revolution)

heh i'm under the impression that he meant those that came into direct contact and rule with the Romans.

though yes China's culture/identity language can be traced continusingly for at the least 3000+ years, the writting system of today (well before the Communist simplified it... but it's still in use in Taiwan / Hong Kong anyway) came to be by the Han dynasty that started in around 200 b.c, and can be easily associated with the systems it evolved from (today's use grammer wise wis quiet different though... then again so is English from say... Shakespear's day)

DNA wise though you could trace but there is a huge mix from everywhere else...
Then again same could be said about Japan and many other places

[Watchman]

Hey, we Finns have been puttering around out here in the far north since late Stone Age (when, one suspects, we drove the Sámi farther north...) and didn't even get a written history before the Swedish conquests in the early second millenium. Does that count as "surviving the Romans", even if out only connection to them was indirect trade links (those pesky German tribes were in the way, y'see) ?

[Sigurd]

What aspect? We have the same language and writing(its changed in very minor ways). The only one is Christianity but that's not really Rome's fault. Guess who's fault that was?

I would disagree; it was the Romans that were ultimately responsible for Christianity.
The small community Jesus and his few followers organized was never meant to be world wide. In fact they all knew they would be killed and that their Judean sect would fall.
The miraculous survival of the church in the 3rd century would directly be attributed to Constantine and his joint conspirators.
I think I’ll stop there; further details would overdo the offensiveness towards our Christian .org members.

Rome was responsible for the spreading of Christianity and hence conquered most of the pagan western world.

[Ash]

I would disagree; it was the Romans that were ultimately responsible for Christianity.
The small community Jesus and his few followers organized was never meant to be world wide. In fact they all knew they would be killed and that their Judean sect would fall.
The miraculous survival of the church in the 3rd century would directly be attributed to Constantine and his joint conspirators.

Rome was responsible for the spreading of Christianity and hence conquered most of the pagan western world.

I think you're being a bit dramatic here.
Christianity was spread in urbanized areas around the Medditeranian well before Constantine converted to Christianity.

There weren't many Christians around in 1st-3rd century AD but they were there. And they were prosecuted by the Romans.

Constantine did much to promote the Catholic church and sponsered it openly. This does not mean however that all Roman citizens immediately converted, let alone the 'barbarian tribes' at the edges of the empire.

And that last sentence is nonsense, but maybe I'm just interpeting it wrongly...:)

[caesar44]

so
the jews are the only ones to survived the roman conquest !! amazing !
there is a 2000 years phenomenon - people , nations ets always want to relate themselves to ancient cultures
"oh yes we the macedonians are the sons of ancient macedon" ets
from scotland to syria , any modern nation was created from the middle age onward
the jews (who left their mother land from 70 ce to 250 ce) managed somehow to exist as a nation centuries after the fall of rome
these are the simple facts and it nothing to do with nations greatness or something like that

[Ash]

so
the jews (who left their mother land from 70 ce to 250 ce) managed somehow to exist as a nation centuries after the fall of rome
these are the simple facts and it nothing to do with nations greatness or something like that

Well first off, how many nations (as we define that term in 19th century terms) on this planet do you know which have survived from before Medieval times?

Second of all, the Jews are a people not a nation, and they have had their own country only since 1948 - which they're still fighting over with the native inhabitants of that region.

[Gregoshi]

Handle with care folks. We've ventured into territory requiring a delicate touch.

[Byzantine Prince]

so
the jews are the only ones to survived the roman conquest !! amazing !
there is a 2000 years phenomenon - people , nations ets always want to relate themselves to ancient cultures
"oh yes we the macedonians are the sons of ancient macedon" ets
from scotland to syria , any modern nation was created from the middle age onward
the jews (who left their mother land from 70 ce to 250 ce) managed somehow to exist as a nation centuries after the fall of rome
these are the simple facts and it nothing to do with nations greatness or something like that

Jewish culture and language has changed just as much if not more then the greek culture and language. Rome wasn't a destroyer of cultures. Religion was. I don't see the point you're trying to make about the jews.

[The Wizard]

The Arabs and Beduins would probably be a pretty good bet, though. The Romans and Persians weren't too interested in fighting over sand, sand and some more sand with them, the Migrations didn't touch them at all, and they got generally left to their own devices. So past the standard cultural exchange you get with trade and raiding and the rest of the routine, and what the passage of time now does to everyone, they "survived" right fine.

Yemen and Oman were actually Sassanid possessions from the 4th century until Mohammed... Kurdish explorers actually founded colonies in Kenya and Tanzania for the shahanshah!



~Wiz

[Hurin_Rules]

Jews have not survived as a nation for 2000 years. The modern state of Israel, which of course includes Arabs and non-Jews, is a recent invention. This state is nothing like the Jewish kingdoms of the ancient world. So no, 'the Jews' did not survive the Romans as a nation any more than the Greeks did.

The Jewish religion has proven remarkably durable, there is no disputing that. Other religions--Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, to name a few-- have proven just as durable. The main difference that allowed the Jewish religion to survive was the fact that Christianity and Islam allowed the Jews to maintain their synagogues and their religion under Christian and Muslim rulers. Jews were periodically persecuted, and in some instances massacred and expelled, but there were always places where they had a safe haven (Italy, for example). Without this, one wonders whether Judaism would have survived or gone the way of ancient paganism.

As to the Jewish language, does anyone know how close modern Hebrew is to ancient? Is it like ancient and modern Greek?

I'm not exactly sure what the original poster is trying to say. The point about 'the Jews' surviving the Romans is difficult to interpret. No Jewish state survived the Romans, but the Jewish religion did survive (mainly due to the benevolence of other Peoples of the Book). That being said, other ethnic groups managed to maintain their own languages and religions after contact with the Romans, and later went on to found their own nation-states (The Franks created France, the Greeks Greece, the Scots Scotland, The Anglo-Saxons England, etc. etc.).

[Mouzafphaerre]

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DNA wise though

I never ever mean it. It's -IMO- just a watered-down racism. *shudders*
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[Sethik]

As to the Jewish language, does anyone know how close modern Hebrew is to ancient? Is it like ancient and modern Greek?

As far as I know (Orthodox Jew here) Hebrew has not changed so much from anceint times though some grammer and words have been changed to deal with modern society. Technically speaking, a person who knows Hebrew today could go back 2000 years and hold a conversation with a Jew.

[Mouzafphaerre]

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As far as I know (Orthodox Jew here)

Technically speaking, a person who knows Hebrew today could go back 2000 years and hold a conversation with a Jew.

You guys can travel in time?! Wanna learn Talmud now!


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[caesar44]

unbelievable !!!
"the jews are not a nation"..........................
what ?!?!?!
waow , this is the year 2005 ?
the state of israel is modern invention ? the jews were in judea 1000 years before the roman conquest , they were still living in judea as a nation until about 500 ce !
if the jews are not a nation why that have a unique language , writing , names , religion , history , motherland and so on
according to hurin the jews should thanks the muslims and christians for their survival...
what do think was hadrian intention in 133 ce when he changed the name of jerusalem to aelia capitolina ? or the name of judea to palestina ? it was to delete the jewish connection to the holly land !
please don't make rash statements

[RedJack]

As far as I know (Orthodox Jew here) Hebrew has not changed so much from anceint times though some grammer and words have been changed to deal with modern society. Technically speaking, a person who knows Hebrew today could go back 2000 years and hold a conversation with a Jew.

I have always thought that ancient Hebrew was a bit different of a dialect than modern Hebrew? Kind of like Middle English and modern English. You could understand each other, but it would take work.

As far as any culture surviving untouched since Roman times.. Hard to say. The Jewish people have kept their culture remarkably well, everyone else in Europe tended to blend together. The German and Scandinavian people are different culturally from the Romatic countries, but even there a lot of cross pollination has occurred.

[Hurin_Rules]

unbelievable !!!
"the jews are not a nation"..........................

I never said that. I said "Jews have not survived as a nation for 2000 years. The modern state of Israel, which of course includes Arabs and non-Jews, is a recent invention. This state is nothing like the Jewish kingdoms of the ancient world. So no, 'the Jews' did not survive the Romans as a nation any more than the Greeks did."

by nation I mean an independent nation, a 'nation-state'. The Jews did not survive as an independent nation for 2000 years. In fact, the Jews were deprived of a homeland and autonomy from the first century CE to 1948. So my statement remains true.

what ?!?!?!
waow , this is the year 2005 ?

Hyperbole adds nothing to this debate.

the state of israel is modern invention ? the jews were in judea 1000 years before the roman conquest , they were still living in judea as a nation until about 500 ce !

Then who was the ruler of Israel in 1000? In 1500? in 1848?
By your reasoning, then, Ireland has never ceased to be a sovereign nation, the US confederacy is still an independent nation-state and both the Native Americans and the Roma (gypsies) are currently nation states.

according to hurin the jews should thanks the muslims and christians for their survival...
what do think was hadrian intention in 133 ce when he changed the name of jerusalem to aelia capitolina ? or the name of judea to palestina ? it was to delete the jewish connection to the holly land !

And what was Hadrian's religion?
Yes, the Jews do in large part have Christian and Muslim rulers to thank for surviving as a nation. The Dhimmi laws in Islam and Catholic/Byzantine Church law, in addition to the support of the papacy, have generally worked to protect Jews from persecution. It is undeniable that many Jews have been persecuted, but how many Jews survived in non-Christian or Muslim states? Had they not been seen as peoples of the book, they would have suffered much worse treatment.

please don't make rash statements

Sorry, I find it hard to reply to that; I'm too busy dodging the stones you're throwing from your glass house.

[Gregoshi]

Let's keep the discussion civil please.

[Watchman]

The last I checked (some three or four days ago, admittedly) there were at least two Israel-related threads in the Back Room. May I humbly suggest messirs caesar and Hurin take it there if they're inclined to keep going on the topic ?

That aside, either there is something downright odd about Jews (and to my knowledge there isn't) or I strongly suspect the parts of their culture that weren't directly tied to their religion (AFAIK properly termed "Judaism") underwent a whole lot of change depending on where they lived.

Or at least I entirely failt to comprehend how four random Jews from, say, Russia, the Ottoman Empire, England and Spain from, say, the 1500s, would share a "common culture". A religion and a language, certainly, and Jewish traders, envoys and businessmen certainly benefited greatly from that (much the same happened among Muslims, incidentally), but culture ?

[Pindar]

If I understand the question correctly the focus is nations that survived Roman conquest. Peripheral nations or tribes are not part of the discussion.

Hurin-Rules is right about Jewry and its political fortunes. The same can be said about the religious dimension. Judaism after the sack of Jerusalem and the putting out of the attendant fires was not the same. There are estimated over 70 sects of Judaism prior to the fall of Jerusalem. The aftermath saw the growth of Rabbinic Judaism. The change in Jewish religious life is even more dramatically seen with the destruction of the Temple. The Temple was the center of Jewish devotional life. It was never rebuilt and Judaism was forced to move in new directions.

I don't believe there are any "nations" that survived the Roman conquest intact.

[Hurin_Rules]

Let's keep the discussion civil please.

My apologies; I got a bit carried away there.

[Watchman]

I don't believe there are any "nations" that survived the Roman conquest intact.

Well, obviously. The Romans liked to integrate the conquered peoples into the Empire and its culture ASAP, so if the Romans were in charge for any longer time any region would get fairly "romanized" pretty quickly.