catapults

[Tulius Hostilius]

Does someone as info about catapults? Who and when used them for the first time? Are there sources about this?

[nokhor]

i think the first serious engines of war were developed by sicilian greek states in their wars against carthage way before the first punic war. if i recall correctly i think polybius mentioned some siege engineer working for a tyrant of syracuse, but i could be wrong.

[English assassin]

I don't know the first thing about real catapults, but I DO know this looks like fun...
http://www.catapultkits.com/

[Hurin_Rules]

For the medieval period, Kelly DeVries book, Medieval Military Technology, will give you a start on the topic. It has a good bibliography. Trebuchets were first used in the Middle Ages, so if you want information on them, this is a good place to start.

I'm not so good on the ancient (torsion) catapults, so you'll have to get someone else to help you there.

[Don Corleone]

I think it predates the Sicilian Greeks. Didn't the Hittites use catapults to sack Nineveh?

[Red Harvest]

"Ancient Siege Warfare" by Paul Bentley Kern states that the clearest earliest known invention of the catapult was in Syracuse by an unknown person in the time of Dionysios I (~400 B.C. or a little later.) Diodyrous is the source for this. These earliest ones propelled arrows, not stones. The first mention of stone hurling is for catapults mounted on Alexander's siege towers at Halicarnassus (333 BC?) The book suggests that these would necessarily have been small anti-personnel devices. At the siege of Tyre in 332 BC is the first record of use of stone throwing catapults against the walls themselves, again by Alexander.

The book states that there is some suggestion that the Assyrians may have had some sort of rudimentary catapults during their heyday centuries before, but that there are no clear indications of such. The Assyrians were the first true masters of siege assault and siege equipment, employing ramps, rams, towers, and sapping among their known techniques at the height of their power in the 8th century BC. After their empire fell in the 7th century, assault siege warfare was in decline until it was revived in Siciliy in the late 5th, early 4th century BC. Prior to that investment with encircling walls and starving the enemy out were the primary techniques.

[Red Harvest]

I think it predates the Sicilian Greeks. Didn't the Hittites use catapults to sack Nineveh?

The Hittite empire fell about 1180-1190 BC, and only a few alligned cities remained after that, such as Karchemish. The Medes and Babylonians united to destroy Ninevah in 612 BC. I'm not aware of reports of catapults at that time, but they did assault the walls and gates by some means--most likely employing standard Assyrian techniques. There are also accounts of a flood damaging the walls.

[Don Corleone]

Dude, let me buy you a beer and pick your brain for a few hours. While I've 'got you on the phone', are there any good texts, for the layman, that could actually explain all the civilizations in Mespotamia after the Sumerians? You know, the 10,000 foot view? Everything I read is either so childish as to be useless (even I know the 2nd Babylonian empire was really Chaldeans) or so in depth and weighty, you can't quite catch up.

Also, our knowledege of the Old Kingdom in Egypt... is it all from the heiroglphys on the temple/tomb walls? Isn't it a little risky to rely on what a people says about themselves as the final answer on the matter? Also, why did the Egyptians stop building pyramids at the end of the Old Kingdom? No pyramids during Middle or New, right?

[Red Harvest]

I'm just using what books I happen to have to try to piece things together. I was thinking about doing a mod or RTW for late Bronze Age/Early Iron Age starting around 1000 or 1100 BCE. Unfortunately, RTW is not looking like that great of a vehicle for such a mod at the moment...too many problems with the engine itself and limitations on the factions/cultures.

I'm just a layman myself. There are probably some real historians lurking about that can provide better info (since I'm relying on stuff written for the masses that happen to still be in print.) One book I have that is very helpful is Collapse of the Bronze Age by Manuel Robbins. It seems to give a fairly decent overview of the Near East cultures of the time. It is really strange that most of Western/Northern Anatolia seems to have become nearly uninhabited for a few hundred years following the fall of the Hittite empire via famine and/or attack by some nomadic northern tribes and the Sea Peoples. It sort of looks like agriculture completely collapsed and didn't fully recover for a very long time. Egyptians and others were apparently feeding the Hittites for awhile before the end came.

There is a "Peoples of the Past" series with a book about the Canaanites, and one about the Babylonians. I have the Canaanites one but have only read parts of it so far. I'm not up to snuff on Babylon at the moment (although I'm aware of the Chaldean conquest) and I've not looked much at the older Egyptian Kingdoms before "New Kingdom". I've thumbed through a book on the Sumerians, but haven't purchased it.

I've got some Osprey books on the region which give some overview and lots of illustrations--not just the Osprey plates, but images from various reliefs and figures and pottery. I have "The Ancient Assyrians", "New Kingdom Egypt", "Ancient Armies of the Middle East", "The Scythians", "The Persian Army", and "Romes Enemies: The Desert Frontier" (much later time frame of course.) The Scythian connection is interesting as they were involved in the conquest of Assyria and even reached Egypt. I won't claim Osprey is the best source, but the books are inexpensive, are good for an overview to get started, and usually have enough images of the major artifacts to get a feel for a period/culture. A few even have a usable bibliography...

[Adrian II]

Dude, let me buy you a beer and pick your brain for a few hours. While I've 'got you on the phone', are there any good texts, for the layman, that could actually explain all the civilizations in Mespotamia after the Sumerians? You know, the 10,000 foot view? Everything I read is either so childish as to be useless (even I know the 2nd Babylonian empire was really Chaldeans) or so in depth and weighty, you can't quite catch up.

Also, our knowledege of the Old Kingdom in Egypt... is it all from the heiroglphys on the temple/tomb walls? Isn't it a little risky to rely on what a people says about themselves as the final answer on the matter? Also, why did the Egyptians stop building pyramids at the end of the Old Kingdom? No pyramids during Middle or New, right?

Don Corleone, take your pick from the Online Resources. Look under title 2. Ancient, all those links are good and they'll lead you to sources and literature if you want.
There's good stuff about catapults and siege engines as well.

[Shambles]

I beleve the greeks initialy invented catapults,
They were mostly used to attack castles,
They would wind them up and let them go It would hit a stoping bar and launch projectile in quit a straight line, so could only really try to knock down walls, However they could Raise the front of the catapult to try and make projectiles fall in to the Castle and stuff, (these are the catapults most people think of)
they were also used in england but the celt's "welsh, irish, scotish"never made any and prefered to starve people out.

BUT THEN

the french invented the trebushay,
Which could throw prety much anything In to or over fortyfied walls.
These things WERE HUGE, and had to be packed down to be mooved.
they used a counter balance Idea to launch projectiles,
And Could launch much biiger objects.
This included Desiesd and festering animals which was Like a biological ware fare, (mostly cows)

A farmer in shropsheir (england) has mad a trebushay,

Have a look.
http://www.sleepy-fish.com/sleepy/De...zy_farmers.mpg
SORRY ABOUT ANNOYING VOICE OVER AN CANNED LAUGHTER,
i couldnt Find the origional Just this.


I had to right click and save as, So maby you need to as well.

Trebushays are Much more powerfull than the old wind up catapults and able to throw prety much anything alot futher,

Hope you like the video.
And now you know what to do with your old cars

[Adrian II]

A farmer in shropsheir (england) has mad a trebushay

Lots of people are building (and experimenting with) Ancient and Medieval siege engines, ballista's & stuff. If you look into the links in the thread I mentioned above, you will find anything from DIY guides to scholarly monographs on elevation and trajectory calculations. There is even a computer model for jousting.

[Shambles]

lol have you seen the video I posted above?
Cos thats a trebushay,
And i wouldnt even strt building anything That Big and heavy :)

[Adrian II]

lol have you seen the video I posted above?

Yeah, I loved it. I liked the barrel at the end best though.

Cos thats a trebushay, And i wouldnt even strt building anything That Big and heavy :)

In the links, there are instructions on how to build table-topmodels of ballista's and mangonels, and I believe a trebuchet as well. Table-top models that load and fire sugar cubes, soaked wads and what have you.
Bet I've got you interested now!




EDIT

Here you go, friend.




Catapultkits for catapultkids...


And here's the vignette of the Grey Company Trebuchet Page - hmm, says it all really...

[Shambles]

Much apretiated.
But the mangonel dosent looklike it has much force in It due to so little twists in the rope,

I think I may just make my own :)
I have a prety good idea how these things work.
So I may just make One when i have some spare time, and video tape it in action :)

[Don Corleone]

Don Corleone, take your pick from the Online Resources. Look under title 2. Ancient, all those links are good and they'll lead you to sources and literature if you want.
There's good stuff about catapults and siege engines as well.

Cool! Thanks Adrian! A beer for you too!

[Adrian II]

Much apretiated.
But the mangonel dosent looklike it has much force in It due to so little twists in the rope,

I think I may just make my own :)
I have a prety good idea how these things work.
So I may just make One when i have some spare time, and video tape it in action :)

Post it if you can. The Grey Company has links to guys who use trebuchets to sling away piano's and stuff. It takes all sorts, doesn't it?

*Suddenly sees own piano in different light*

[Adrian II]

Cool! Thanks Adrian! A beer for you too!

[Tulius Hostilius]

How! I am impressed by the responses!
Thank you all people!

Don Corleone,
“I think it predates the Sicilian Greeks. Didn't the Hittites use catapults to sack Nineveh?”

That was my doubt! I thought that they didn’t, but… I had the doubt, and no bibliography.

Red Harvest,
Thanks! Maybe I will buy "Ancient Siege Warfare", and the “Collapse of the Bronze Age”. They are books “written for the masses” but plenty helpful for those who aren’t experts in the time period.

For those who like the late Bronze Age/Early Iron Age, and RTW, why don’t you visit Troy Total War page (still developing):

http://www.troytotalwar.111mb.com/

and the forum:

http://s9.invisionfree.com/Troy_Tota...ex.php?act=idx

[Red Harvest]

Some more info that is interesting. I've only had the Kern book a short while (along with a dozen other books) so I have only read a few chapters. However, it quotes the Book of Chronicles about how King Uzziah (786-758 BC) strengthened Jerusalem's defenses. It says that he placed "engines, invented by skillful men," on the towers and corners of Jerusalem's fortifications. These "engines" shot arrows and "large stones." However, the translation of the passage is in doubt. One opinion is that the "engines" reference is not to catapults, but to wooden structures on the towers and walls. It is also suggested that the syrian reliefs of the siege of Lachish show such structures: wooden frames that held shields for archers and slingers so that they could hurl stones and shoot arrows at the attacking siege engines. Building improvised towers larger than the attacking siege towers was a common practice throughout the world of fortified cities. Another possibility is that the term was simply an anachronism that snuck in during later translations.

My King James Version says "And he made in Jerusalem engines, invented by cunning men, to be on the towers and upon the bulwarks, to shoot arrows and great stones withal." I find the "great stones" part interesting. (The Revised Standard Version is nearly identical and is the text in the preceeding paragraph quoted by Kern.) Whether this is an anachronism due to various translations/transcriptions by the ancients, or if it is describing some other device is anyone's guess. I'm not sure what century the source Hebrew writings come from for 2nd Chronicles translation. Most tend to be about 6 th to 9th century AD from what I understand, something like 1300-1600 years after the events described in this verse.

I could even see such a device as being some sort of simple mobile ramp for rolling large stones down at equipment below...just as an example. Of course, that doesn't explain the arrows... It is possible that some sort of catapult was invented and in use, but if so it would predate the rest by at least 350 years...and that seems unlikely for the relative backwater of Judah. According to Kern, Babylonian siege ramp engineering calculation excercises have been found that suggest the effective lethal range of defender's bows and such was only about 60 meters (horizontal). That would tend to rule out their facing catapults, which would have a much longer sting. I admit that the 60 meter range seems a bit short, even for simple bows. However, defenders probably would not be inclined to make a habit of taking long range shots at well armoured siegers such as the Assyrians and Babylonians used. Their armour and shields should protect them quite well at 60 meters. If you were under siege for months or years, you might run out of bronze/iron arrow heads, and good arrow shafts fairly rapidly if you shot continuous long range volleys. Plus the 60 meters was probably and optimum value...longer ramps would mean a lot more time and labor, since the ramp size was THE determinant in how long it would take before the wall could be assaulted. So the engineers might have concluded that casualties at 60 meters were low enough to be at an annoyance level, rather than a serious hazard to the whole undertaking.

As an aside: This Ancient Siege Warfare book by Kern is really very good (even though I've only read about 100 pages total so far.) It has much more detailed and contiguous history in it than I expected. It flows very well and is not disjointed like some books about historical warfare.

[The Wizard]

I beleve the greeks initialy invented catapults,
They were mostly used to attack castles,
They would wind them up and let them go It would hit a stoping bar and launch projectile in quit a straight line, so could only really try to knock down walls, However they could Raise the front of the catapult to try and make projectiles fall in to the Castle and stuff, (these are the catapults most people think of)
they were also used in england but the celt's "welsh, irish, scotish"never made any and prefered to starve people out.

BUT THEN

the french invented the trebushay,
Which could throw prety much anything In to or over fortyfied walls.
These things WERE HUGE, and had to be packed down to be mooved.
they used a counter balance Idea to launch projectiles,
And Could launch much biiger objects.
This included Desiesd and festering animals which was Like a biological ware fare, (mostly cows)

A farmer in shropsheir (england) has mad a trebushay,

Have a look.
http://www.sleepy-fish.com/sleepy/De...zy_farmers.mpg
SORRY ABOUT ANNOYING VOICE OVER AN CANNED LAUGHTER,
i couldnt Find the origional Just this.


I had to right click and save as, So maby you need to as well.

Trebushays are Much more powerfull than the old wind up catapults and able to throw prety much anything alot futher,

Hope you like the video.
And now you know what to do with your old cars

Actually, until the invention of the mangonel by the Chinese in the 6th-7th century AD, catapults were unable to breach walls. They were anti-personnel weapons, used to sweep walls of defenders, so that the real weapons of breaching could be used.

In ancient times, the real weaponry for breaching walls were rams. These were first used by the Assyrians, as mentioned, and picked up again by the Greeks and Successor Kingdoms (apparently, the Phoenicians also used towers, rams and ramps as well). The plan was to build a ramp, then upon it build a ram, which would batter the wall repeatedly until the wall collapsed. This method was used throughout the ancient period. A good example of the technique can be seen in the siege of Hierosolyma (Jerusalem) in 70 AD by Titus Flavius, the son of Vespasian.

Catapults, or the better term of artillery, only gained the ability to actually breach walls after the Chinese invented the mangonel, a weapon that we know as the trebuchet. The difference was that the mangonel was powered by a wheel in which slaves ran to power the arm (think ancient Roman crane, or cranes used in the late middle ages). The weapon was introduced into Europe by the Avars, a Turkic people which arrived in the Hungarian plains in the 7th century (?).

The Byzantines quickly adopted the weapon (amongst a lot of other things; the Avars brought many new techniques and technologies of warfare to Europe), and from Byzantion the artillery spread to Italy, and from there to Southern and then Northern France (in a similar way to the couched lance technique in the 10th century). It is, in that way, that the improved (?) mangonel, known amongst the French as trebuchet, was introduced to Western European warfare. An important event, for siege warfare -- albeit on small scale -- was the most important way of warfare of the time, what with the small-scaled, raid-based way of warfare and the many castles.




~Wiz