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Thread: Investigation of the Phalanx formation

  1. #61
    Senior Member Senior Member econ21's Avatar
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    Default Re: A thin line of spears

    I think Total War has always given an edge to thin lines - which favours the smart human over the AI working with the default chunky formations. In STW, I think there were no rank bonuses. In MTW, spreading your swords or cav thinning was a killer.

    Doug - I wonder what would happen with better cavalry than equites? Absorbing a cavalry charge seems to be the only reason I would go for a deeper formation.

    It is regrettable as what little I know about pre-gunpowder warfare implies that some depth of formation was important. Partly it may be because fighting hand-to-hand in armour is so tiring (a TV programme showed a fit young man in armour being exhausted after a minute and a half of intensively fighting multiple adversaries). Having depth allows you to "rotate" your frontline, replacing exhausted troops with fresher ones. I always wondered about modding MTW to give rank bonuses to non-spears!

  2. #62
    Ming the Merciless is my idol Senior Member Watchman's Avatar
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    Default Re: A thin line of spears

    AFAIK that rotation trick was a difficult one to pull off, and required the somewhat demanding combination of comparatively loose order and well-trained troops. The Roman infantry did it, and it gave them a major edge against the disorderly barbarian hordes who crowded thick against the Roman line and the individual warriors couldn't retreat out of the way no matter how wounded or tired they became. That sort of thing is prime breeding ground for anxiety and eventually panic, with well-known results.

    Phalanxes were probably way too dense to allow for that sort of rotation, but then again I've read a phalangite's most important traits were considered to be stamina and discipline, so the formation kept together and steadily and (fairly) tirelessly mowed down anything before it.

    But then, the historical Ancient phalanxes tended to be huge affairs of thousands of men in a single rectamgular block hundreds of meter wide and up to sixteen ranks deep. The ones in Rome don't exactly compare...

    As a side note the fairly small six-man deep pikeman rectangles the Swedish introduced into the Thirty Years' war seemed to hold their ground quite well against the huge, deep tercios most others initially used. Even if you factor in the considerable organic fire support they had, it makes you wonder if formation depth really is all that important in the "push of pikes".

    ...anyone feel like testing how well a long, thin line of phalangites does against a deeper, narrower phalanx in a head-on clash...?
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  3. #63
    For TosaInu and the Org Senior Member The_Emperor's Avatar
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    Default Re: A thin line of spears

    The real problem we have with the Phalanx is the inability to create a solid unbroken line. The natural gaps between the units always makes things worse.

    When a unit does its natural "wrap around" all it takes is for a couple of guys to get into that gap on the flanks and the Phalanx will start having trouble.

    In a sense this "wrap around effect" is a real problem in the way the game works, its a cheap method of auto-flanking without taking the Pushback from deep formations into consideration... It was a problem before and it remains a problem now, but it probably can't be avoided until Rank Pushback is included.
    "Believe those who are seeking the truth; doubt those who find it."

  4. #64
    Squirrel Watcher Member Sinner's Avatar
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    Default Re: A thin line of spears

    Quote Originally Posted by Sin Qua Non
    I've even been tinkering with stringing a thin line of archers in the open space between the pike points and the first rank of a phalanx, so that they are protected by the pikes, but don't distrupt the formation or cause friendly casualties. It's been mixed results. If the archers survive the initial charge (and don't run at the enemy like idiots), then they can cause significant casualties in the perfect section - the front row of the enemy's melee.
    Which would potentially work very well with the Germans using their Chosen Archers and Spearband or the Egyptians with their Pharoh's Archers and Nile Spearmen. Both types of archer are better than average when it comes to melee, so they should hold up a lot better.

  5. #65
    Actual Person Member Paul Peru's Avatar
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    Default Re: A thin line of spears

    One more finding in the "useful to know, slightly cheesy to exploit"-bag, then.


    Quote Originally Posted by Doug-Thompson
    The bizzare thing, though, is that the thin line drifts to the left. It keeps doing this. It wasn't a fluke, as I thought.
    Perhaps a medium depth can be found where they stay put?
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  6. #66

    Default Re: A thin line of spears

    I find most battles are decided on who routs first, rather than simple killing ability (though obviously the two are intimately connected!), and therefore would be interested to know what effect unit depth had on morale - ie, would a thin, two rank phalanx be more likely to rout than a deep one?

    If the computer calculates the morale of each soldier depending on how many allies they are in contact with, whether the whole unit is contiguous etc, it could have a major effect - in a two rank formation each soldier can only be in contact with a maximum of 5 allies, any greater depth and all troops except the front and back rank could potentially be in contact with 8. Also, a cavalry charge may be repelled by a two rank phalanx, but even so, the charge may make temporary gaps in the formation, even if they only last for a few seconds, it cold effectively split the unit into two or more seperate bodies of men - I'd guess this might make routing more likely?

  7. #67

    Default Re: A thin line of spears

    Though of course the lack of wrap around in the shallow formation would improve morale as well...

  8. #68
    Cathedral of Despair Member jimmyM's Avatar
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    Default Re: A thin line of spears

    just a few notes...in the total realism mod there was an ability to form units into an unbroken "phalanx" line - i've since had to uninstall the modded install and i'm really missing that ability possibly contacting mods involved would yield a standalone "phalanx ability" mod
    as for hoplites (with 6 meter spears) charging with their spears underarm...hmmm- not sure, i think this limited the effectiveness of their spear thrusts over the wall of shields (the impact of the charge could also cause you to maim the guy behind you with the butt spike of the spear), though to take cavalry charges they braced their spears into the ground underarm (sorry, nitpicking...)
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  9. #69
    Rout Meister Member KyodaiSteeleye's Avatar
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    Default Re: A thin line of spears

    One thing in MTW - lots of peeps advocated the 'swordsmen in 2 ranks' theory. However, what i found was that there were two drawbacks to this:-

    1) as troops get killed, and your second rank starts to empty, holes appear in the unit formation, and this did seem to lead to routs (either because formation was disrupted, or they were getting doubled more, not sure)
    2) if you have all of your infantry in double rank formations, try manouvering them around the battlelines successfully! - thinner formations can exploit holes in the line much easier, and are far less likely to 'hit' enemy units by mistake, and so get embroiled in combats you don't want, or losing charge bonuses.

    I agree however, that wider formations for phalanxes seem to make sense (in the game)- but what is their holding power in this formation? - does it give less time for your flanking forces to get engaged? Also - thin formations should theoretically be much more susceptable to heavy cavalry charges, as they should smash right through the 2 line formation and out the other side > rout.
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  10. #70
    Typing from the Saddle Senior Member Doug-Thompson's Avatar
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    Default Re: A thin line of spears

    Red Harvest;

    Yes, the archers and the phalanx are two results from the same cause: The complete disappearance of rank as a factor of its own. The only question now is, do you want a compact formation able to manuever (especially change facing quickly) or a thin one that can cover a lot of front?

    I've been far less critical of R:TW than others, but this just isn't right.

    =========

    Simon Appleton;

    I'll charge a bunch of cataphracts into some hoplites tonight.
    "In war, then, let your great object be victory, not lengthy campaigns."

  11. #71
    Typing from the Saddle Senior Member Doug-Thompson's Avatar
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    Default Re: A thin line of spears

    Quote Originally Posted by Watchman
    But then, the historical Ancient phalanxes tended to be huge affairs of thousands of men in a single rectangular block hundreds of meter wide and up to sixteen ranks deep. The ones in Rome don't exactly compare...
    And

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Emperor
    The real problem we have with the Phalanx is the inability to create a solid unbroken line. The natural gaps between the units always makes things worse.
    The only way to get the proportions close to correct would be to link multiple units in an unbroken front, in my opinion.

    The Macedonian Phalanx of Roman times was deeper and, frankly, less maneuverable than Alexander's

    Say --quite arbitrarily -- that the typical hoplite formation of 80 (large unit size) is supposed to be part of the "classic," somewhat flexible phalanx a la Alexander, and that the 120-man unit is supposed to be part of the newer, more dense Macedonian model with longer pikes.

    Alexander's phalanx was 16 ranks deep and 256 files wide. This gives a depth-to-front ratio of 1 to 16. This contained (at full strength) 4,096 troops.

    Take five large unit-size hoplite formations at their default depth of five ranks. Put them end to end. This results in:

    A group five ranks deep and 80 files wide, a perfect 1 to 16 depth-to-front ratio. It contains 400 men -- a 97.7 percent-pure little 1/10th scale model of the classic Alexandrian phalanx.

    In my opinion, phalanx should not be a special ability for one group of 80 or so spear types but a special group formation, a "hard" grouping that only phalanx-type units can employ that eliminates the gaps between units. The hoplites can "ungroup" if they need to change facing rapidly, moving the individual units, and "regroup" when facing the desired direction. There should also be a rank bonus maximized for a depth-to-front ratio of about 1-to-16, or deeper in the case of longer pikes.
    "In war, then, let your great object be victory, not lengthy campaigns."

  12. #72
    Typing from the Saddle Senior Member Doug-Thompson's Avatar
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    Default Re: A thin line of spears

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Peru
    One more finding in the "useful to know, slightly cheesy to exploit"-bag, then.
    Guilty as charged, but at least my intentions were good. I wanted to give a simple, clear demonstration of what's wrong with spear units in R:TW. I think it worked.


    Perhaps a medium depth can be found where they stay put?
    Wondered that myself, but would bet that a three-rank formation would get wrapped again.

    ========

    Fridge and KyodaiSteeleye;

    I will soon know more about how brittle a thin line is when charged by cavalry. Beyond that, I just don't know how all this plays out in a real fight. These are not the type of questions that can really get answered in a simplistic custom-battle demonstration with only one human. I know that long, thin formations are much harder to maneuver and to change facing.
    "In war, then, let your great object be victory, not lengthy campaigns."

  13. #73
    Provost Senior Member Nelson's Avatar
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    Default Re: A thin line of spears

    The relative smallness of phalanx formations seems to be a problem.

    In addition, something should be done about the way charging mounted troops can leap directly into the front of a phalanx and cause everyone nearby to draw their swords thus wrecking the entire formation.
    Time flies like the wind. Fruit flies like bananas.

  14. #74
    Clan Takiyama Senior Member CBR's Avatar
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    Default Re: A thin line of spears

    I remove the space between each phalanx unit by using a double line. I draw out half my units in 3-4 ranks and then draw the other half directly over the first line just a few files off to one side. The result is a very compact formation that is hard to maneuver with but it does the job


    CBR

  15. #75
    Alienated Senior Member Member Red Harvest's Avatar
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    Default Re: A thin line of spears

    Depth was very important because the push back was used to destroy the enemy formation. Athenians used a base level of 8 deep, Spartans 12, Thebans 25 and the Macedonians up to nearly 50 in some situations (although 16 was normal and 32 "double depth.") These larger units were being used like human battering rams to destroy other hoplite phalanx units. The formations were already dense, so adding that much depth would have been made them into a streamroller. I really don't understand what kept the men in the first ranks from being crushed...unless of course, their opponent was pushed back.

    The observation about MTW was on the money. If you used thin lines, they became weak after a few casualties. As a result each of us learned to use depths that provided an optimum of hitting power and durabitily (depending on play style and situation.)

    I'm sure I'm still missing alot on the intricacies of ancient warfare but this is what I'm gathering at the moment: phalanx formations were typically quite large in full size armies: around 2 to 4,000 per wing was not uncommon although they did have smaller divisions within of 256 men, 1000, etc. They didn't have to operate as a block per wing, but it appears that they often did. A phalanx wing of 4,000 was more men than the entire hastati/principes/triarii of a single legion. It's an intersting comparison when you think about it. The Roman system is similarly deep...but in multiple lines, whereas the phalanx is a compact single line.

    To make something like this in RTW you need to have individual phalanx components sort of welded together, but still breakable at the joints. The Romans exploited any breaks in the formation, so you still want phalangite sub units do be prone to getting disordered, taking too many casualties etc. However, the AI and the human need to be able to wield the phalangites more like a line. It's a tough balancing act: a hard, but brittle phalanx.

    On the other hand, you can also see where the Roman system should work against the phalanx. The phalanx can't afford to push forward (or fall back) too much in any sectio or it creates a vulnerable gap, one the Roman infantry was designed to very effectively exploit. The phalangites also are prone to being disordered by any obstacles in their path or breaks in the terrain. So during melee, the phalangites are all stuck in their deep formation unable to rotate to rest. Meanwhile the Romans can attack in thin waves keeping a steady pressure, with the previous wave falling back to catch their breath (since their formations did not need to be rigid and deep.) It would be interesting to see how this drill was carried out.

    The high kill rates of RTW (or any TW game) cause problems with the idea though. You can't effectively disengage sword infantry, and they take a lot of casualties fighting so they nearly always fight to the death. So you can't really pull back your hastati in sections, then advance princeps, etc. as the Romans apparently did. It would look kind of dull waiting for the phalangites to wear down and become disordered while your hastati get pushed back, then replaced by princeps, then perhaps hastati again, etc. until the phalanx wore down or became disordered or caused enough damage to your legion (or legion's position) to win.
    Rome Total War, it's not a game, it's a do-it-yourself project.

  16. #76
    Clan Takiyama Senior Member CBR's Avatar
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    Default Re: A thin line of spears

    I really don't understand what kept the men in the first ranks from being crushed...unless of course, their opponent was pushed back.
    When units bunched up, as they did sometimes, the front ranks were crushed with dead men still standing up. but that was extreme cases that didnt happen often. It was not good tactics to let rear ranks run up and push the front ranks that were fighting. But it could happen with badly trained and enthusiastic units during a charge or if front ranks were forced back (because of cavalry for example)

    For pike units where the first 5 ranks were supposed to level their pikes it would have spelled disaster and total disorder if men came up from behind and started pushing. Close order and discipline was vital for such units but not too close heh.

    Units need a certain depth so they will fight for some time and 6-8 ranks was considered minimum. The hellenistic system operated with one line only so more men were just added to make the line stronger. The Romans changed that by using multiple lines each of around 8 ranks (6-10 depending on era and losses)


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  17. #77
    Senior Member Senior Member Cheetah's Avatar
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    Default Re: A thin line of spears

    I have read somewhere that in the greek system they did push. It is hard to imagine, Japanese underground comes to closest perhaps, or american football. I will find the reference.
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  18. #78
    Typing from the Saddle Senior Member Doug-Thompson's Avatar
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    Default Re: A thin line of spears

    Quote Originally Posted by KyodaiSteeleye
    Also - thin formations should theoretically be much more susceptable to heavy cavalry charges, as they should smash right through the 2 line formation and out the other side > rout.
    and

    Quote Originally Posted by Nelson
    In addition, something should be done about the way charging mounted troops can leap directly into the front of a phalanx and cause everyone nearby to draw their swords thus wrecking the entire formation.
    Now that's the whole problem in a nutshell regarding cavalry.

    As per Simon Appleton's request, I charged a unit of cataphracts at a unit of hoplites in phalanx -- over and over again.

    It didn't matter if the hoplites were two ranks deep, five ranks deep or NINE ranks deep. Every time -- even in the instance of nine ranks -- at least one cataphract leapt all the way to the back of the line, formation was blown and the hoplites drew their swords. This instantly converted the phalanx from a wall of spears to a mediocre melee unit. Also, formations became more prone to getting wrapped the deeper they were.

    ============

    After some more frustrating experiments, I got myself two 80-man vanilla Greek hoplite units (which cost the same as the one Parthian cataphract) and used Sin Qua Non's trick, slightly modified.

    I put one hoplite phalanx two ranks deep. I left a space -- sorry, I can't say how wide. I was going by feel. Then I strung out another phalanx two ranks deep behind the first and the open space.

    Medium difficulty. Grassy flatlands. Phalanx on. Guard mode off.

    I stayed put until the cataphracts started charging, then hit one-click attack for both units. The cataphracts hit the first thin line of spears. The ones that leapt either landed on the first phalanx or in the space in between the two phalanxes. Either way, the flying cataphracts were back on the ground with no room to charge and facing a second fully formed, advancing unit of bristling spears.

    The first try was a complete success. The 55-man cataphracts routed with 23 of their number left. There were 31 survivors left from my first phalanx and a negligible four losses from the second. Notably, some of the routing survivors of the first phalanx had gotten away by fleeing through the thin ranks of the second.

    The next try put the two phalanxs a little closer together, but that did not work so well. The flying cataphacts were able to cause some disruption of the second phalanx, though not much. That battle eventually turned into a melee. I turned phalanx formation off after there were no spears left. I won but wound up with only 59 survivors out of 161 hoplites, but there were only 9 cataphracts left.
    "In war, then, let your great object be victory, not lengthy campaigns."

  19. #79
    Senior Member Senior Member econ21's Avatar
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    Default Re: A thin line of spears

    Interesting stuff this, Doug. Even with the double unit trick, the hoplites are not doing that well against the cats. Sounds like something needs to be done to strengthen spears/phalanx against cavalry - I hope CA listens when making the patch.

    BTW, sounds like this thread should be in the research sub-forum.

  20. #80
    robotica erotica Member Colovion's Avatar
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    Default Re: A thin line of spears

    Oddly enough I did this same test a long time ago. I was having problems with Phalanxes and needed to figure out how the game wanted me to use them, not how they were used hiostorically.

    In my tests I only tested on Cavalry. I found that teh Cav would charge into the Pikes and through/over when in a deep formation but very very rarely was the time when the horses would charge into the huge wide/skinny formation. It shocked me and is part of the many reasons why I haven't played for a while.
    robotica erotica

  21. #81
    Member Member Ziu's Avatar
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    Default Re: A thin line of spears

    I tried a few battles with Germanic phalanges vs Cataphracts. In all instances, with ranks of 5,4,3 and 2 deep, the Cataphracts were routed. Even through the horses managed to punch through the lines everytime.

    Against legionares the phalanges were defeated everytime. Again with each line depth played. As Doug mentioned the leftward shuffle becomes quite pronounced the thinner the line. So much so that left to their own devices the phalanx will shuffle away from the enemy to present their two man flank. Picture a mace with the phalanx as the handle and the legionares as the head. They get chewed up quite quickly at this point. These were all 1:1 battles so the flanks were easily attacked.

  22. #82
    Typing from the Saddle Senior Member Doug-Thompson's Avatar
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    Default Re: A thin line of spears

    Quote Originally Posted by Ziu
    I tried a few battles with Germanic phalanges vs Cataphracts. In all instances, with ranks of 5,4,3 and 2 deep, the Cataphracts were routed. Even through the horses managed to punch through the lines everytime.
    No doubt, Ziu, but the German spear warband has 120 men (large unit size) to the Greek hoplite's 80, and an attack of 9, charge of 8 and a defense of 11.

    More important, though is the fact that the German warbands stats can't drop to a weaker alternative weapon because they don't have a sword.

    The hoplite's stats are 7-6-16 WHEN the hoplites DON'T lose order and drop their spears. With swords, the stats go down to 5-2-16.
    "In war, then, let your great object be victory, not lengthy campaigns."

  23. #83

    Default Re: A thin line of spears

    Cav jumping spears/pikes annoyed me so much I tried to fix it by editing out the charge_jump cas in the animations pak.

    Due to my newb technical abillity havent succeeded,but Vercingetorix the master has.

    A small file fix is availiable Here

    pike_jumping_cav_fix

    I tested it using 8 macedonian phalanx units from levy up against 12 gallic cav(cpu attack).In a single line at standard depth the phalanx all used spear except at the flanks where swords were used.They dealt with the cav very easily with only 1 unit sustaining significant losses.

    Definitely worth downloading.

  24. #84
    Member Member Ziu's Avatar
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    Default Re: A thin line of spears

    Quote Originally Posted by Doug-Thompson
    No doubt, Ziu, but the German spear warband has 120 men (large unit size) to the Greek hoplite's 80, and an attack of 9, charge of 8 and a defense of 11.

    More important, though is the fact that the German warbands stats can't drop to a weaker alternative weapon because they don't have a sword.

    The hoplite's stats are 7-6-16 WHEN the hoplites DON'T lose order and drop their spears. With swords, the stats go down to 5-2-16.
    That's true. I just thought it might be interesting to compare with other phalanx units available in the game. Sorry if it was a irrelevant to the main thrust of the topic.

  25. #85
    Typing from the Saddle Senior Member Doug-Thompson's Avatar
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    Default Re: A thin line of spears

    Quote Originally Posted by Sid_Quibley
    Cav jumping spears/pikes annoyed me so much I tried to fix it by editing out the charge_jump cas in the animations pak.

    Due to my newb technical abillity haven't succeeded, but Vercingetorix the master has.
    I've played computer games since the 1980s. I have never, NEVER downloaded a "home remedy" from anyone.

    Until tonight.

    Tell Vercingetorix that the fix is fabulous. Cataphracts still beat Greek hoplites, but it took a long while -- quite long enough to have sent for reinforcements in a real battle -- while the Greeks were in a five-deep formation.

    Sanity was restored -- the cataphracts blew right through the two-rank thin line like it was paper, routing the bunch in a few seconds.

    Outstanding in every way. Highly recommended -- and I'm a die-hard Parthian cavalry guy.

    Now if we can just find a solution for the infantry. (See Watchman quote below.)

    =======

    I've never seen the movie Pearl Harbor. I refused to go see it after watching the previews, which had Japanese planes at cropdusting altitude buzzing some lady in a field. There, I sneered, was a neat visual effect trumping all reason.

    Same thing with flying cataphracts.
    "In war, then, let your great object be victory, not lengthy campaigns."

  26. #86
    Typing from the Saddle Senior Member Doug-Thompson's Avatar
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    Default Re: A thin line of spears

    Quote Originally Posted by Ziu
    That's true. I just thought it might be interesting to compare with other phalanx units available in the game. Sorry if it was a irrelevant to the main thrust of the topic.
    Oops. My bad, Ziu. Yes, we should see how other units do. It's not irrelevant at all. Needs to be done. I got on the technical side and got tunnel vision. Recommend you download that "flying cataphract" fix mentioned above. The Germans will do even better.
    "In war, then, let your great object be victory, not lengthy campaigns."

  27. #87

    Default Re: A thin line of spears

    Excellent thread!
    I was having trouble with that horse jumping/wraparound issue as well and always thought that more ranks would be better. D'oh!
    Really like the discussion and there's also Vercingetorix's fix. Vote to get this stickied or at least indexed.

  28. #88

    Default Re: A thin line of spears

    Brilliant threads - both this and the one in the monastery.

    Quick question - Vercingetorix's fix, can this be applied mid-campaign? My Seleucid war machine has just pacified the east, and I'm about to take on the Romans, and wouldn't mind fixing my phalanges before I go. Not that the Roman's have much cavalry to worry about, of course.

    Also, is there a list of all these little fixes and files anywhere? A menu, if you will.

  29. #89

    Default Re: A thin line of spears

    Quote Originally Posted by Fridge
    Quick question - Vercingetorix's fix, can this be applied mid-campaign?
    Should work fine mid campaign as it doesnt alter any files relating to save game just negates the jump anim.

  30. #90
    Senior Member Senior Member econ21's Avatar
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    Default Re: A thin line of spears

    Interesting discussion, but just to return to Doug's original points about RTW gameplay is there any truth in RTW that cavalry does much more damage to your infantry if it is caught "on the run"? For example, if you try to deploy your infantry to a new location and formation by dragging the mouse, and the AI cav catches you before you finish, you seem to get butchered. This is true even if you are facing the cav and seems to be because deploying opens up small gaps between the men in your formation that the cavalry exploit. I've encountered it often, trying to maneouvre around the last AI cav in a city forum. If true, it's a nice feature. It seems to somewhat contradict Doug's point about thin lines - maybe it's just saying you need a close formation, not a deep one.

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