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Thread: Investigation of the Phalanx formation

  1. #121

    Default Re: Investigation of the Phalanx formation

    uhm...okay, let's try to keep this on topic. lol.

  2. #122
    Lurking since the Dawn of Time Member SpawnOfEbil's Avatar
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    Default Re: Investigation of the Phalanx formation

    I'm not sure if this has been mentioned before, but I've found out how to get a single unbroken phalanx line on vanilla RTW.

    Edit the data_formation file, find the single line entry, and change the unit spacing from 2.0 to 0.0.

    Hey presto, a perfect phalanx line.

  3. #123
    Amanuensis Member pezhetairoi's Avatar
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    Default Re: Investigation of the Phalanx formation

    yeah this is very useful, but be careful when redrawing a new line, watch the unit shadows very carefully to see that there are no gaps. At certain lengths the arithmetic doesn't add up so men don't cover the gaps.

    Also, my two cents' worth on phalanx advances--this is definitely not without loss, and may have been repeated before, but I find that as you order the phalanx to move behind the enemy line, they will eventually close to within attacking range, upon which you just hammer backspace to stop them. Phalanxes, once engaged, are best not given new orders (since they will lift up their spears etc) but this works well in siege battles when my phalanxes are in the process of entering the city, and are in jumbled formation. Just pressing halt when they are on phalanx mode halfway into the city will mean they will immediately present pikes as approximately forward as they can and get into formation at the same time.

    As to attacking, whether siege or not, it seems in my experience that as long as you order them to attack with a doubleclick as said earlier in the thread, they will attack, but sometimes they walk right into the enemy, so for good measure, press backspace once they join combat to stop them from moving any further.

    How I wish CA had a 'sound the general advance' option. Then the phalanx could really steamroller the enemy, one step forward at a time while pushing them back.


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  4. #124

    Default Re: Investigation of the Phalanx formation

    Quote Originally Posted by Jambo
    This may seem a little controversial to some, but I reckon phalanx units really ruin the challenge of the siege and city aspects of this game. It's almost impossible to lose a city to the AI when you're defending it with phalanx units. Simply align them in the city plaza at strategic choke points and wait for the AI to launch itself on the units in whatever random and inane order it chooses. I will sometimes lose as little as <10 soldiers and kill >1000 when defending cities with phalanx units. I'm not even talking about the top phalanxes either, simply militia hoplites or levy pikemen will do.

    Granted, this is as much to do with the strategy the AI employs for city assaults as it is for the power of a phalanx in tight choke spots. The AI fails to use archers properly once inside the city - instead of firing on stationary units like phalanxes, it will use all archers and skirmishers in melee to get to the city plaza.. In fact, as soon as a city wall is breached or once inside a city, all AI units do is charge in an ill-thought-out manner to the city plaza.

    The trouble is, trying to find a suitable solution to keeping the game challenging when using a nation with phalanx units? In the field I'm aware phalanx units are far more susceptible and major nerfing will impact on this part too much. Does anyone have any ideas?

    So far, what I've decided to do is try reducing the "mass" of phalanx units a little (by 0.2), so that in city fights there will be a greater chance that a massed mob of attackers can disrupt their formations a little more.
    I'm using Mordred's mod where all non-spear units are reduced to 0.75 lethality, all units get a +1 to their defensive value and a +4 to their morale, movement speed is set at 0.9. This works well in the field battles. The AI's single minded selection of "best individual matchup" works better because there is more time during the fighting for those matchups to play out. Its cav flanking moves make contact with better timing as well. Although, that tactic of chasing cav with infantry didn't work well in the battle where an AI 1000 man infantry army chased my 3 units of cav all over the battlefield and I was able to inflict 800 casualties before loosing. The AI did win the battle and some of the casualties healed.

    In city battles with this mod, it is easy to defend by blocking city streets with phalanx units. If you look at the layout of a typical city, there are very few streets leading to the central plaza. For cities without walls with large enough plazas, you could defend on the central plaza itself so that the option of blocking choke points is not available to you. I didn't actually have the courage to do this in my Carthaginian campaign since I didn't know if I could hold cities that way. For cities with walls, I simply sally right away when sieged thereby turning it into a field battle. This also means I have to maintain decent sized garrisons which slows down my economic expansion, and I only train or retrain one unit per turn per city. So far this has worked to make the strategic game more interesting, and the battles are already more interesting with the mod. I keep phalanx units in guard mode all the time. I would have no chance against the Roman's better armies without plenty of sacred band infantry holding the line. I suffered 2:1 casualties overall when I took on SPQR, and lost about 40 sarcred band infantry units in the 12 years it took me to defeat them. The Carthaginian campaign I'm playing is still interesting at 134 BC where I've managed to control 24 provinces and the next 26 are not going to be that easy to get. Since I got to this point with only 2 saves, the AI factions have not been overrun with rebel provinces since they always move to recapture any that revolt.

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  5. #125
    Savior of Peasant Phill Member Silver Rusher's Avatar
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    Default Re: Investigation of the Phalanx formation

    I have read back here and have seen that there are quite a few people who actually think it is a good idea to pull your units out of phalanx, then move them in and put it back. While it looks good on paper, this is actually a really bad tactic. It works against infantry armies, but no...

    I am currently playing through a campaign on Mundus Magnus, a mod which dramatically improves the campaign map and a few other things (if you still play vanilla RTW, I recommend you get it now), as the Parthians. The Seleucids are my biggest enemies, but I can easily crush their armies because of this tactic. Until I get catanks, I am using armies composed entirely of Horse Archers, Scythian Mercs or Persian Cav.

    This sounds like a weak combination as there are no troops to support the missiles, but trust me, it works. To kill the Seleucids, whose armies at this stage usually compose of 70%+ phalanx units, I can simply ride over, pump their phalanxes full of arrows and wait until they get pissed off and lift their sarissas. Then, I charge straight at them causing an almost instant rout to them.

    Out of the countless battles I have fought with the Seleucids, I can only remember actually losing 1 of them. I know from experience, phalanx units are pathetically weak when they aren't in that formation, so always keep those pikes ready. I think the time I did lose was because my horse archers ran out of arrows and charged into a phalanx out of impetuousity.

    To summarise, when fighting eastern armies with phalanx armies, don't dare take them out of formation. The phalanx requires patience (which is why I hate using it lol) to be used successfully.

    And no, lowering the sarissas in the middle of a melee does NOT work. Trust me, I know from plenty of Seleucid arse-whooping experience.
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  6. #126
    Humanist Senior Member A.Saturnus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Investigation of the Phalanx formation

    Generally, the behaviour of the AI isn`t a very good cue how to do something. Whether lifting the sarissa can work has to be found out in multiplayer.

  7. #127

    Default Re: Investigation of the Phalanx formation

    My campaign battles have played well with the 0.75 lethality to non-spears because I control the phalanx and don't take them out of phalanx formation, and the AI factions I've gone up against don't have phalanx units. Breaking up its battleline and lifting the pikes means the AI can't use the phalanx unit effectively.

    Multiplayers repeatedly hit the "form phalanx" button because it forces the the men in the unit to switch from their sword back to their pikes momentarily.

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  8. #128

    Default Re: Investigation of the Phalanx formation

    After a few games in multiplayer as Armenia against Roman armies (not to mention a few embarassing defeats), I did a little bit of testing on my own, with one unit of first Heavy Spearmen, and then Pontic Bronze Shields against against a single Legionnary Cohort, as an experiment to see how much time one would have to get cavalry into flanking positions.

    I'm about to reiterate a lot of what's already been said, so if that bothers you you can stop reading here. :P

    Anyway, I tested the spearmen twice, once in four ranks and once in two, and both times they lost badly. The first time, in four ranks, the legionnaires wrapped around the sides and routed the spearmen, and the second time they smashed through the middle of the formation and routed the spearmen.

    The Bronze Shields (pikemen) did better, mainly because they're a 120-man unit on Large, against the cohort's 80. The cohort didn't wrap around until much later, and thereby nearly lost--the numbers were 27-29 in their favor at the end. The primary difference was that it took the cohort a good couple of minutes longer to break through the pike unit. In the interests of curiosity, I had six cohorts attack five units of pikemen and a unit of Cappadocian Cavalry, and in the end managed to win with surprisingly few losses.

    I drew a few conclusions from this.
    1. Footmen shouldn't spread out so much when they attack. Or maybe they should. All I know is that this is mostly why phalanxes lose.
    2. Pikemen (and longer spears) and larger units (and larger frontages) are infinitely better at holding back good infantry.
    3. It's too easy to break a phalanx formation--against the Heavy Spearmen, the cohort managed to get a good number of the spears put away during their initial charge. The pikemen fared marginally better.
    4. In multiplayer, big units are practically necessary to hold off well-trained troops.

    All tests were conducted with guard mode off.

  9. #129

    Default Re: Investigation of the Phalanx formation

    Alright, I read this post to about page one, and became disturbed because I personally believe the phalanx is one of the most impressive units in the game, with the exception of one error i always get, which is while the phalanx is in combat, having random idiots walk away from the phalanx itself. IDK *** u guys mean by drifting, it seems to me that the best way to attack is in guard mode, right cliked once, once they make contact (combat symbol) you observer the enemy's counter... rushing to charge, or standing still, if they rush you, you remain in guard mode, if they stand still you turn off guard mode, and the phalanx moves steadily to defeat the enemy. I even have a video to show you fools my hoplites pwning phalanx pikemen, in a long bloody confrontation where i used guard mode/ non guard mode to it's advantage.

    http://files.filefront.com/phalanxvs.../fileinfo.html

    Watch this, tell me what you think, what i saw is the hoplites constantly adjusting itself to counter the pikemens sarissas. I at first was off guard mode, to close quick because of the sarissas longer length, eventually creating a gap and a rout on very hard difficulty. Playing as the greeks mostly, (although i edited them so i could use companion cavalry [greek cavalry ****]) Having spartan and armored fight as heavy infantry or a phalanx is fine enough for me, while they aren't as good as legions in hand to hand, it pins them down while u can run another hoplite unit to the flank, form a phalanx, flip off that guard mode, and turn on the meat grinder. Please give me your imput on this video and whether or not it's the problem you guys are having, because i have ALOT of experience with hoppys/phalanxs as it's all i play with...lol

    Moderator note: edited for language.
    Last edited by econ21; 01-30-2006 at 10:22.

  10. #130

    Default Re: Investigation of the Phalanx formation

    or no-one will answer ....

  11. #131
    Arrogant Ashigaru Moderator Ludens's Avatar
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    Lightbulb Re: Investigation of the Phalanx formation

    Quote Originally Posted by Mezmerizer
    or no-one will answer ....
    I cannot play the file here, but phalanx drift means entire units moving to the right (as opposed to forward) when the enemy was just outside spear range. The problem was solved with the 1.2 patch. I guess that is why none answered.
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  12. #132

    Default Re: Investigation of the Phalanx formation

    Not sure if this is the same thing, but in 1.5 I will get a situation where one of the members of the phalanx dawdles picking his nose or something, and then he's chasing after the rest of the unit as they move forward. Very strange and kind of comical.

  13. #133

    Default Re: Investigation of the Phalanx formation

    wutd u expect to happen, any troops will get slaughtered if urban cohort takes phalanx on from front with cavalry auxilia charge on the flank

    its a mismatch u cant compare 2 units vs 1

  14. #134

    Default Re: Investigation of the Phalanx formation

    i have try,the phalanxe still can be defeated,if you got a high armoured unit like legion cohort.First click them to run straight to the behind of phalanxe unit(or click onto unit behind it),those legions will run straight to phalanxe and impact/charge into those spears wall,force those phalanxe unit to draw their sword,then it is time for to click(attack) onto that phalanxe unit,it will defeat that phalanxe unit easily,i try it when i play julii attempt to finish that campaign faster to unlock other factions.If the phalanxe troubling you,you can try this.
    In all warfare,speed is the key!

  15. #135
    The Philosopher Duke Member Suraknar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Investigation of the Phalanx formation

    My experiences with the phalanx have been in the begining much frustration as some have expressed.

    I can confirm also what most everyone said about phalanx being more agressive with Guard Mod OFF.

    After numerous campaigns playing as Greek cities a combined approach is what I now employ.

    The phalanxes purpose as used by Alexander was to pin the enemy while other troops did the flankinf, in the game the Greek cities dont really get those other troops for the flanking and I have come to the conclusion that this is the missing link.

    It has been the same with almost all the games in the series except Shogun total war. But if historically a certain faction was defeated that faction usually lacks advanced stage Units or a complete aray of units to do the job as effectivelly as other factions.

    In other words even if we can play one of these "historically defunct" factions, we are not given the means for a full campaign in order to stay "historically correct".

    In MTW Byzantium lacked the stronger units of other Factions, just because in real history they did not have the opportunity to have them. So, lets say that we accept this historical precept, what to do in game when we are faced with the ahistorical situation? We have to find ways to bypass the designed lack of units, modding in the units is an approach but lets put modding on the side for now.

    Phalanx, can be used in the same fashion as alexander did. You can line up your Hoplites or Pikemen and start advancing towards the enemy line, however you have to have some units that will take the role of actually killing and routing the enemy as the phalanx will not do so in the opening stages of the fight.

    What I do is have 1 phalanx with guard OFF for every 3 phalanxes in Guard mode ON.

    As the battle line advances you can pin the enemy and before the enemy start spilling to the flanks you flank that enemy with the phalanx that is not on Guard Mode.

    The ones on Guard take much less casualties than if they were not on Guard, in retrospect they donot do as much damage, as many of you have observesd they seem to stand there. That is hwere the flanking phalanx comes in to play they are OFF guard mode and will kill, but are more vulnerable to attack however the enemy is fighting the phalanxes in Guard mode.

    Throwing in another flanking unit of peltasts or heavy peltasts and you can insure victory, as the enemy routs you advance the comlete line of defensive phalanx and thus bit by bit you take the upper hand.

    Now having cavalry or mercs such as thracian/bastarnae makes things much easyer with that system.

    It touk me a while to get the hand of it, as it require preparation in the deployment phase, lots of clicks and mouse drags, yet it is successfull in game.

    When you dont have an army with many phalanx units I do what everyone else has said here, take guand mode OFF and expect the higher casualties.

    Protecting the Flanks is always key, and it requires timing.

    Macedonians are an easyer faction to use this tatic due to their superior cavalry compared to the greek cities, with greek cities it is a bit more challenging and may require pausing the fight (something that I do not like to do actually) to give proper orders and get your bearings in larger engagements.

    That is it on my part and the phalanx.
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  16. #136

    Default Re: Investigation of the Phalanx formation

    Quote Originally Posted by Suraknar
    My experiences with the phalanx have been in the begining much frustration as some have expressed.

    I can confirm also what most everyone said about phalanx being more agressive with Guard Mod OFF.

    After numerous campaigns playing as Greek cities a combined approach is what I now employ.

    The phalanxes purpose as used by Alexander was to pin the enemy while other troops did the flankinf, in the game the Greek cities dont really get those other troops for the flanking and I have come to the conclusion that this is the missing link.


    That is it on my part and the phalanx.
    but you can flexible changing your hoplites to swordmen by setting your phalanxe off,while phalanxe hoplites push forward to pin the enemy,those swords hoplites can do the flanking job,use armorued hoplites as swordmen if you want to lower your casualties.....
    for me,i use them as swordsmen completely,since it still got bonus against cavalry even with phalanxes off,it just won't be that effective without spearswall to hold cavalry charge(will get high casualties as get charged by cavalry)!
    Those phalanxe are very good to hold off some strong units for some time,that it will buy you some time to rout those weaker units.......
    i even defeat those mighty legions with phalanxe pikemen swordsarm!!!

    But heavy peltast will do better since it have no penalty against infantry(decrease 4 attack),you can use them as swordmen that do the flanking job!
    Last edited by guineawolf; 06-24-2007 at 14:04.
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  17. #137
    Member Member RickFGS's Avatar
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    Default Re: Investigation of the Phalanx formation

    From my multiplayer experience you can use phalanx as any ordinary troops, its all about skill with the mouse+keyboard, set up the design phalanx formation before you deploy, lets say the Hannibal&#180;s Crescent Moon Tactic with the Sacred Band&#180;s on reserve or flanks.

    Start the battle, unlock phalanx formation and set your troops to move towords the enemy, surprising them for instance with the right mouse botton and pressing "R" for run, they will immediatley form up the Crescent Moon in 3/4 secs top "in his face".

    Now on how to actually use the phalanxes, this is what i learned:

    1st - Its all about gravity:

    - If facing down - "guard mode off" since even your weaker troops will have an increased attack vs a decreased defense of the enemy of around 25% for each making an 50% damage/defense bonus, and while advancing the enemy will have a hard time mantaining formation and isolated units will apear most of the times for easy killing.
    - If Facing up, "guard mode must be on" to pin the enemy down while trying to endure the enemy&#180;s decend bonus and losing minimal formation and gaps...
    - In plains:
    - "Guard mode should be on" if enemy as pikes to avoid maximum contact and try out other tactics since pikes are most vulnerable to missile fire;
    - "Guard mode should be off" on our flanks to try to encircle the enemy if your line is bigger, if line is smaller, then "guard mode on"
    - "Mixed Line" - Often most efective against other phalanxes - just have a chess formation on the front line and have the rear phalanxes on guard mode off, after the inital first line pin ups, just advance the rear ones towards the diagonal of the fighting enemy unit - kinda like the roman legion manipular formation.

    2nd - Always upgrade your defenses to at least 26 on elite phalanx like sacred bands (making it litteraly invulrable to missile fire"), 20ich on spartans, 30ichs on armoured hoplites and the rest go at least with silver shield/weapon upgrade and 1/2 chevrons experience, else they wont be much good.

    3rd - mingle one or two phalanxes on the flanks with your cav and try to draw them into your spears, its not that hard to achieve and 2 phalanxes and a couple cavs will get rid of a lot of enemy cav.

    4rd - The "Scape Goat" - use your best upgraded/experienced phalanx (not pikes, unless royal pikes because of the large hoplon) in a pushing forward manouver (not a suicidal one), just enough to draw the enemy archer fire, them you can advance the rest of the line, that elite unit will soffer few losses and the rest of your army wil probably stay untouched - its kinda basic but you&#180;ll be surprised that it works most of the times

    5th - The "Torpedo" - Get you phalanx into a collumm (this providing your flanks are covered) and insert an wedge into the enemy line, he will react trying to attack your flanks moving his phalanx forward, dont engange and let him come to you, during this process a gap opens in the front, and have your reserves go in and waste his backs one by one as the enemy line starts to crumble.

    6Th - The "Swiss Cheese" - Set your phalanx line into a swiss cheese, whith small gaps on it and have your light/medium/hvy infantry form up in a pilar formation, when the enemy engages there will be a time the phalanxes will go in diagonals opening gaps between them because they are in "guard mode off" and yours are in "guard mode on", just move up the fresh troops and kill the enemy phalanxes one by one.

    7th - Top 10 phalanx units by order:

    1 - Spartans
    2 - Sacred Band
    3 - Armoured Hoplite
    4 - Royal Pikeman
    5 - Pharao&#180;s Guards
    6 - Pontus Bronze Shield (cheaper then silver shield)
    7 - Silver Shield Pikeman
    8 - Poeni Infantry
    9 - Armenian Heavy Spearman
    10- Pontus Phalanx Pikeman
    Last edited by RickFGS; 06-26-2007 at 19:01.

  18. #138
    Arrogant Ashigaru Moderator Ludens's Avatar
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    Lightbulb Re: Investigation of the Phalanx formation

    Interesting tactics RickFGS, but this belongs more in the Colosseum.
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  19. #139

    Default Re: Investigation of the Phalanx formation

    hammer and nail, or anything Alexander used, which I forgot the name :p. 3 or 4 good morale Phalanxes draw fires and can hold their melee enemies (about 5-6 units) in chaotic mobs at bay, make enough times for ur calvary/killing units do their jobs.
    Spear units w. shield wall can be a similiar uses but they made too small formation and tend to be surrounded quickly, even they lived and do not rout, they creat a gaps to let enemy reach ur ranged troops.
    Fighting isn't about winning, it's about depriving your enemy of all options except to lose.

  20. #140

    Default Re: Investigation of the Phalanx formation

    Does anyone know if the phalanx formation itself gives any defensive bonuses? I always thought it did but cant find any info on it
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  21. #141
    Keeper of the Pax Romanum Member TruePraetorian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Investigation of the Phalanx formation

    Iv'e seen it said before but i cannot remember where...i personally think that the best way to "fix" the phalanx is to change it comnpletley. I run my Rome in BI.exe (rtw with all the barbarian invasion fetures such as swimming). When i was researching on how to make a faction a horde, i saw a topic about the perfect phalanx. Simply change the formation in export_descr_units in the hoplites from phalanx to shieldwall. I then added in the longspear trait (can't rememeber if that's what it was called). It worked perfectly. The hoplites can charge(increasing attack) like they were able to when they were created in ancient times, they fight just like a phalanx but a little closer together which is fine because thats how close they should've been. They also still share the same defence as the phalanx but do to their close proximity they are extremely hard to break up with a frontal cavalry charge. Most importantly for examination of this thread, THEY DON'T DRIFTEver fought with hastati? yeah, they fight like that, no drifting, man to man, but they do not break apart and fight individuals outside the fight

    Hope i helped
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  22. #142

    Default Re: Step two three, shuffle two three, dance two three : the big phalanx question

    phalanx units, they seem powerfull against any cav, but the poor thing about greeks is that they do not have any good swordsmen or cavalry. CArthage has got good phalanx units (sacred band, poeni infantry) and good cavalry (sacred ban cav.) just let your phalanxes attack the front of the enemy whil the cav strikes the enemy in the rear and flanks, that is the best phalanx tactic. i think if you use masses of swordsmen ( like Iberien Infantry) you can easly beat off phalanx units, make sure you bring enough WORTHY skirmishers/peltasts/velites with you. rhodian and balearic slingers would do it too. just let your javelineers/slingers throw their sticks to lightly decimate the enemy army, while they try any attemps to reform the line in confusion, try to attack them with cavalry in the rear, and cheap but worthy swordsmen ( Iberian Infantry) attack them in the front, enemy cant put their spears down, is trapped and get killed until the last man.

  23. #143
    Member Member Cruor's Avatar
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    Default Re: Investigation of the Phalanx formation

    Impressive investigation you'v egot there! How do you find this stuff out anyway?
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  24. #144
    Death and Glory TW modder Member Flying Pig's Avatar
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    Default Re: Investigation of the Phalanx formation

    I march in with swords drawn then at the last minute form a phalanx up - it can work
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  25. #145

    Default Re: Step two three, shuffle two three, dance two three : the big phalanx question

    Quote Originally Posted by hamilcarX
    i think if you use masses of swordsmen ( like Iberien Infantry) you can easly beat off phalanx units, make sure you bring enough WORTHY skirmishers/peltasts/velites with you. rhodian and balearic slingers would do it too. just let your javelineers/slingers throw their sticks to lightly decimate the enemy army, while they try any attemps to reform the line in confusion, try to attack them with cavalry in the rear, and cheap but worthy swordsmen ( Iberian Infantry) attack them in the front, enemy cant put their spears down, is trapped and get killed until the last man.
    Absolutely agree, Phalanxes are obsolete when you use mobile tactics. Strip off the supporting skirmishers, missile and cavalary troops in the battle preliminaries, and such slow HI becomes helpless, as they can't maneuver fast enough, nor can withdraw effectively due to threat of Cavalry charge into rear.

    Adding to hamilcarX's suggestion, is that you don't engage the Phalanxes with your swordsmen frontally until they're attacked from flank(s) and preferably rear. You may also be able to make maneuvers which disrupt the phalanxes as they struggle to wheel and re-form, which (I think) helps get a good score for the javelin men.

    I've had great results with humble back-peddling Velites (skirmish & auto-fire off) who are happier than Hastati to retreat, the Phalanxes frontal assault.

    Consistently, I loose fewer men to Phalanx based armies, than I do to onrushing Gaul spearwarbands, especially if they're backed up by skirmishers and charging Heavy Noble Cavalry who generally inflict some losses, say 50 or so men.

  26. #146
    Member Member linkdrago's Avatar
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    Default Re: Investigation of the Phalanx formation

    but if it's a situation such as the samaritan mound and the enemy has not got any missile units then the phanlax would be the way to got i think but if it archers then they would be useless unless you attack the archers with a quick unit the bring the phanlax into play

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