I've spawned this thread to continue a thought train that began in another. The way some discussions tend to branch off into ancillary subjects seems to annoy a number of folks here (though it is a natural tendency in most casual conversations in which I've participated ...). If this were an academic forum I could understand better the annoyance of threads going off-topic but ... anyway, in the interests of harmony:
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KhukriKhan - Memory. The tool we use to percieve the very, very, very recent past (sometimes known as 'the here and now'). When it is gone - as in an Alzheimer's sufferer - we may have achieved oneness with reality, but we've lost the ability to know it, as we no longer have that artificial construct of reality to use to guide us through the changes perceived since that construct was decided on.
I remember having a Carlos Casteneda moment in my 20's when it dawned on me that each individual human makes up their reality (or construct of it) as they go along; no one more accurate than another, all of them guesses.
Nowadays, it just makes me smile.
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Sjakihata - When each individual creates his/her own reality, does it then not render discussion useless? Instead of discussion it should be dialogue - so we can exchange certain information, and if the targeted individual does not accept / believe we should not judge them.
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Toga - Well, my take is, each individual has his or her own perception of reality, but there is an absolute reality that stands apart despite how anyone/anything chooses to perceive it. I see "enlightenment" as the ability to accurately and consistently perceive this absolute reality and understand it.
I have always enjoyed what you describe as dialogue, as opposed to what typically goes on in the Backroom. So many seem to need to prove themselves right, prove others wrong, convince others to adopt their point of view. It gets tedious.
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Sjakihata - Toga, you do believe in an absolute truth. Do you also think then, that individuals exposed to the truth will be able to reckognize it, if not it would be frightning, no?
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Toga - Hmm ... have to think about that before I respond. I need to run some errands anyway so I'll get back to you a bit later.
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Byzantine Prince - In my personal opinion we are actually just anybody but we take roles because of our animal sides. We don't need to have a style or anything. All we need is to exist. The mind is blank until you add a bunch a crap in it. If you clear yourself then you'll be free. Only logic should exist. Logic solves itself. Once you look at the outside world forget everything you ever knew, just use logic and "see" the future by yourself.
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Toga - (in response to Sjakihata's direct questions): I think we are exposed to Truth all the time. I think it exists in the grass beneath our feet, in the sky above, in the laughter of children waiting at the bus stop, in the flow of traffic through the city. It lies at the Heart of you, and me. Will we be able to recognize it? Given what I just put forward, obviously not. I don't yet--I just "sense" ... something--something profound and real. I hope that, someday, I will "recognize" it. I don't think it's possible with just the brain-mind. I think the nature of Truth is beyond the mere physical or mental; I think it's "spiritual," for the lack of a better term. I think you have a sense of what I mean when I say this.
Would it be frightening to recognize it? I don't know, but I don't think I would be frightened. I'm not so sure that "recognize" is the term I would use. "Realize," perhaps. Words are so inadequate when considering such things. It is through my meager studies of the writings of the great prophets and masters that I have come to believe in Truth. Most have described their enlightment with great Joy, not fear. These were truly great human beings in my eyes, and I have come to trust in what they have shared. It's not through logic or reasoning that I've chosen to believe what they have put forward, nor is it faith. It is something else. Again, words are so inadequate ... .
Here is a link to "The Art of Peace," written by Ueshiba Morihei, "O'Sensei," founder of Aikido. To those who read it with an emphasis on logic and reasoning it will seem like poppycock, as does most "spiritual" work. But if one reads with an open Mind, and ponders it over time, perhaps it will resonate as it has for me. I have also found other Zen teachings and Sufi works on this subject to be quite astounding (and perplexing). They can be found all over the 'net.
http://www.heaven-earth.com/artofpeace.htm
When one is caught up in the day-today life of humanity, it becomes very hard to consider such things. Have you spent more than two weeks straight in the wilderness? If so, have you noticed the change in yourself and how you "view" things? Do you "feel" differently? When you return to the "real" world, are you invigorated (and at the same time, dismayed?)? I like to take works like these with me on treks, and ponder them at length. I like to then ponder nothing, and just exist in the warmth of the sun, mesmerized by the ripples in the lake, caressed by the winds, listening to the whispers of the pines. It is then that I feel closest to Truth.
That you would ask, honors me. In doing so you've reminded me that I would do well to focus more on important things and spend less time with trifles. That will probably last a day or two , but nevertheless, thanks. I have been behaving like an ass in some circles here. Gah ... but I am just a silly human, so I guess I should cut myself some slack.
I owe someone an apology in the Backroom. See ya 'round.
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