cataphracts vs companions

[jerby]

playing seleucids and wodnering why I should go for companions when I already have cataphracts? for me, I think they should trade places for a more logical order ( in strength) but then, companions were the elite, so that can't be right.
so, when you can't let companions trained before cat's you have to tune em.
companions should be stronger! they look wicked but still don't cut it.
maybe up the number, maybe 35 or something
maybe improve def.skill. or attack skill?

what do you think that has to be changed, caus like this. seleucids dont need companions.

[Alexander_The_Great]

i made a 1v1 cataphracts agains companions the one who charged won

[SpencerH]

I found cats better with the vanilla game. The companions were likely to die in a melee.

[The Stranger]

no compainons shouldn't be better cataphracts have less attack and charge but better armour so way better fighting macedon and greeks and egypt while companions are useful vs pontus rome ensoforth

[jerby]

emperor, not following you. do you mean companions are better against sword-armed infantry and cat's better against phalaxes? or soemthing else?

even tough, why would seleucids have comp. when you have cats. companions where the elite. nobelmen. can't they get some plus?

[The Stranger]

yes they were the social elite, cataphracts were not

[jerby]

yes they were the social elite, cataphracts were not

so why are they just as strong/weaker? didn't elite have superior training

[soda]

The cataphracts are borrowed from the Parthian people whereas the Companion (elite cavalry) goes back to Alexander and the Macedonians. Two different types of cavalry from two different cultures.

[Khorak]

Aren't Companions faster? That's why you'd want to use them. Great big honking charge in a faster package.

[jerby]

ok, but then companion still have a setback. their training ability. cat's are trained in a large settlement and comps in huge. so by the time you have companions you have already conquered teh east and start heading for macedonia.
so to compensate that setback, companions should have better stats. it will make em the elite.

[jerby]

is speed so important? my army is phalanx-based and then I should choose the weaker, harder to build cav?

edit:
ok, maybe companions aren't weaker than cats in head to head, cav to cav. but charging a phalanx from the side is maybe just as effective, but you take more losses with teh companion, that combined with their training ability makes them very hard to use in the campaign

[Kraxis]

I have modded both a bit.

I have made the def and attack of the cats a bit weaker so that they don't just steamroller everything (add to that all my other changes they are now rather good cavalry but not overpowering), to even out the charge I have upped the chargebonus slightly.
The Companions on the other hand have been boosted in both charge and attack of both weapons making them the best chargers in the game. Also slightly stronger in def (1 point). All in all they now warrent their position at the end of the techtree, but they and the cats still have their areas of expertice. The companions being perfect in cav vs cav and in exploiting weak spots while the cats can create those spots, but will now need support to not get bogged down.

They are now in my mind a perfect pair.

[jerby]

I have modded both a bit.
The companions being perfect in cav vs cav and in exploiting weak spots while the cats can create those spots, but will now need support to not get bogged down.

They are now in my mind a perfect pair.

what weakspots did companoins exploit? weakspots on all cav, or just cats?
how did you mod the cats and comps exactly?
and how (in battle) do you use them in battle? symbiotic? inf-flanking with cats, and counter flanking with comp?
please tell me all, im interested.

[Kraxis]

Weak spots as in weakened infantry, disorganized infantry (elephants or cats in front) or simply weaker infantry. Classical cavalry if you have to go head on. Also they deal with other cavs very well due to their inherently better swords and their tremendous charge. I use them like Alexander would have.
The cats on the other hand are the batteringram that needs to open the path. Hardly ever send them against other cav as they are lumbering and tire out too fast. Nimble cavalry can easily lure them too far away. For the same reason they are not as good in flanking (not that they can't do that well, but it just seems to be not worth it). I use them to seek out a place that mgiht crumble if subjected to their charge. Also they are good at taking out generals (they don't flee as much as lighter cavalries and here the AP works well).

Companion changes: +2 (+1 to chargebonus) to spearattack, +2 to swordattack, +1 to defensive ability. Upped price to 900 and 380 (generally upped upkeep of cavalry).

Cataphract changes: +1 to spearchargebonus, -1 to maceattack, -1 to armour. +1 to desertcombat. Upped upkeep to 390.

[Es Arkajae]

The problem with Companions and Cataphracts is the silly speed model used in the game.

In MTW cataphracts were formiddable but they were also very slow and tired quickly (as cataphracts should), the Byzantines even had an alternative cavalry unit the Pronoiai Allagion (sp?) that whilst weaker were as fast as normal knights to make up for this.

In RTW Cataphracts are just as fast as Companions, have similar attack stats and craploads of extra armour so that they're much better in a melee.

With this in mind then Companions become redundant.

Cataphracts should be much slower and should tire out faster than other cavalry units, the Companions would then be the cavalry that one uses to ride around the enemies flank and the Cataphracts what one would use to just slam headfirst into an enemy line at the point of crisis. Both units would have distinct uses.

[professorspatula]

A further stupid point is that the upkeep for cataphracts is far, far too low. Why are they so cheap when they're the best shock cavalry in the game? I can't see one reason to ever build Companion over Cataphracts as the Seleucid unless I just stop caring about the quality of my units once the Elephants show up. The fact that before the 1.2 patch their upkeep was only 140 proves that CA have lost the plot when it comes to unit and gameplay balancing etc. I don't care if there is some kind of historical significance or reasoning to explain the low upkeep - it's a game, there needs to be some kind of sensible balancing.

[The Stranger]

use my mod SRTW as soon as i can place it somewhere. damn TWCENTER won't let me.

[jerby]

SR? does iy work along side of rtr.
what is the adress of twcenter?

[The Stranger]

it isn't there. i can't submit the file. its

Stabilized Rome Total War.
any suggestions where i can submit the file

[jerby]

nope, sorry.

don';t who said it, but he talked about using comps for flanking and cats for head on charging. why would anybody charge cav straight on? cats are good, no doubt. but Never charge cav into a good formation. maybe when you have created an opening you can rush a wedge in, but thats teh only exception.

hey, nice: Does anybody here use the wedge? and when/why?

[Proletariat]

The problem with Companions and Cataphracts is the silly speed model used in the game.

This is becoming a game ruiner for me. I can go easy on alot of things stupid AI things in the game, but seeing Numidian Cav being hunted down by Briton Chariots is getting too difficult for me to suspend logic and just enjoy.

[Uesugi Kenshin]

Companions are far better when used in repeated charges to the flanks and or rear, however they should never be used to hold a position or fight an extended melee, there Cataphracts beat them. Companions are not redundant, because they are better at causing armies to route through flanking. Cataphracts on the other hand are better at taking on units with better weaponry and fighting in extended melees.
Companions should have a higher upkeep, because they are noblemen. Noblemen will demand higher wages than Cataphracts who were not. Also Companions are more skilled, they do not rely on equiptment so they would demand higher wages.
The Seluecids should take advantage of being able to field both and use them in conjunction. If you are facing off against a larger better equipped army and need to flank the enemy, but are blocked by their cav have the Cataphracts charge the front of the cavalry and the Companions sneak off to flank the infantry or charge the side of the cavalry. The Cataphracts can run interference to allow the Companions to charge the infantry from behind while they are fighting your infantry. For example if the enemy general rides up to shoo you away have the Cataphracts deal with him and fight an extended melee while the Companions make repeated charges againts the infantry's rear.
I agree that Cataphracts should be slower and tire more easily....

[Claudius Maniacus Sextus]

Cat's Vs. Comp.'s:

CAT:+best armoured cav.
+rigurous training for battleing in so heavy armour
-It should tire quickly and walk slower
-It should have big upkeep and big recruitment cost

Comp's:+Social elite means the best armour(not the heavyest)and weapons
+Very intensive training
+disipilned
-being soo "elite" would mean high upkeep and as elite a medium recruitment cost mainly because they provide their own armor,weapons......


In Game Reality:The Cat's obliterate Comp's.A sad truth.

[Claudius Maniacus Sextus]

Does anybody here use the wedge? and when/why?

when having an infantry army and litle cav. u charge so u can separate the enemy so your inf. have an easier battle.

[Claudius Maniacus Sextus]

This is becoming a game ruiner for me. I can go easy on alot of things stupid AI things in the game, but seeing Numidian Cav being hunted down by Briton Chariots is getting too difficult for me to suspend logic and just enjoy.

thats real funny!but the speed factor in this game is ridiculos.my velites kill light lancers.

[jerby]

ok, I know whén to use wedges: splitting and a little bit extra damage. but the question is IF anybody uses it.

so: cats are cav-counter-cav( high def) and comps are for flanking ( charge bonus)

I still think companions should be able to kick cat-ass every day of the week, anytime anyplace, anyhow. they are noblemen and need to have a reason to be at teh top of the techt-tree.

omg, this is ruining my day, cats have 'very good' stamina, and comp just 'good'. this can't be right...

[The Stranger]

ga kijken bij spartan dinges die je heb gepost.

[Kraxis]

nope, sorry.

don';t who said it, but he talked about using comps for flanking and cats for head on charging. why would anybody charge cav straight on? cats are good, no doubt. but Never charge cav into a good formation. maybe when you have created an opening you can rush a wedge in, but thats teh only exception.

hey, nice: Does anybody here use the wedge? and when/why?

That was me... But I never said you should charge into an enemy phalanx (though that actually seems to be a rather cheap way of dealing with them in an unmodded game) or good swordsmen. Find the sweet spot in the enemy army, such as Cilician Pirates, Woad Warriors (like that is going to happen) or Naked Fanatics. High attack and weak def are perfect candidates for a cat charge head on.

I think I will remove the hardy attribute from the cat alltogether and add very to the comps. Maybe that will help...

[jerby]

yeah i did to.
but how should the comp/cat be modded.
should te comp be able to beat cat in head to head?
if not, how do I test the balance?
i upped the charge and att of teh comp. and downded teh cat def by one.
i redone stamina for both like you.

[Kraxis]

I don't know if the comps should beat cats head on... Maybe. But I at least think they should be equal. And comps better at dealing with lighter troops (their inherently better swords) and cavalry, but that is under the pretext of them being faster. They are not.
So my feeling is right now that it is very hard to get a satisfactory result without completely reversing a lot of stats. Here I talk about making cats very much weaker so that comps don't roll over everything, but are still warrented their higher position in hte techtree. But that will hurt other factions quite a lot. It is the speed that does the balance in here... Grrrrrrr.