Understanding Hannibal and Cannae -TV Heads Up!

[Oaty]

One thing you have to wonder about. Both Carthage and Rome wrote about the battle. Unfortanately all of Carhtages history was burned to the ground. So the history we read are from those of the Roman army that are fleeing. Not a good way to learn about a battle.

Second what in the world did Hannibal and Scipio ever discuss in thier personel encounters.

[Craterus]

i just checked the TV guide and theres nothing in there about this tv show?
what time will it be on UK time? thanks for any

[EvilNed]

No, I'm quite sure Hannibal DID order his Iberian mercenaries to feign retreat. He did this so that the romans would advance, and make the whole ordeal so much easier for his troops to envelop the romans. This was, of course, succesfull, and he didn't have to loose as many troops as he might have done otherwise.

EDIT:

http://www.roman-empire.net/army/cannae.html

"The crescent of Celtic and Spanish swordsmen buckled and retreated. To the Romans this appeared to be due to their powerful drive into the opponents lines. In fact the troops had been told to retreat."

[Red Harvest]

No, I'm quite sure Hannibal DID order his Iberian mercenaries to feign retreat. He did this so that the romans would advance, and make the whole ordeal so much easier for his troops to envelop the romans. This was, of course, succesfull, and he didn't have to loose as many troops as he might have done otherwise.

EDIT:

http://www.roman-empire.net/army/cannae.html

"The crescent of Celtic and Spanish swordsmen buckled and retreated. To the Romans this appeared to be due to their powerful drive into the opponents lines. In fact the troops had been told to retreat."

You have misinterpreted what the site says. It does not say feigned retreat. Read Polybius. This is not a "feigned" retreat. It is a real retreat of troops falling back/buckling as things get too hot. Hannibal's center was vastly outnumbered and on open ground. The troops fought, and gave ground as planned. Hannibal used the classic strategy (tactic in this case) of trading space for time. No, the center was not intended to hold its ground, Hannibal knew it would buckle, just as it had at Trebbia. This is not a feigned retreat, it is a fighting withdrawal. "Giving ground" is a clear indication of the nature of the central action.

Polybius 3.115 from Perseus:
For a short time the Iberian and Celtic lines stood their ground and fought gallantly; but; presently overpowered by the weight of the heavy-armed lines, they gave way and retired to the rear, thus breaking up the crescent. The Roman maniples followed with spirit, and easily cut their way through the enemy's line; since the Celts had been drawn up in a thin line, while the Romans had closed up from the wings towards the centre and the point of danger. For the two wings did not come into action at the same time as the centre: but the centre was first engaged, because the Gauls, having been stationed on the arc of the crescent, had come into contact with the enemy long before the wings, the convex of the crescent being towards the enemy.
The Romans, however, going in pursuit of these troops, and hastily closing in towards the centre and the part of the enemy which was giving ground, advanced so far, that the Libyan heavy-armed troops on either wing got on their flanks. Those on the right, facing to the left, charged from the right upon the Roman flank; while those who were on the left wing faced to the right, and, dressing by the left, charged their right flank,1 the exigency of the moment suggesting to them what they ought to do. Thus it came about, as Hannibal had planned, that the Romans were caught between two hostile lines of Libyans--thanks to their impetuous pursuit of the Celts.

[EvilNed]

They feigned retreat so that the romans would follow them. Wether you want to call it "giving ground" or "tactical retreat" doesn't matter. Yes, they were beaten, and they would have retreated eventually anyway, but what is so wrong about calling it feigning retreat? They obviously fell back, so that the romans would be caught in their trap. Hannibal had ordered them to fall back.

So what we call it doesn't really matter, but in essence, it's still a feigned retreat.

[Red Harvest]

You can of course call it whatever you want. That doesn't make it a "feigned retreat."

[EvilNed]

You can of course call it whatever you want. That doesn't make it a "feigned retreat."

Well, they pulled back in order to lure the romans forward, making it look as if they were losing.

If that's not feigning retreat, I don't know what is...

[ToranagaSama]

Just to clear a couple of things up:

The Discovery Channel documentary is does NOT use RTW for its graphical representation, and it is NOT part of the Decisive Battles nor the Time Commanders series. It is a different representation entirely, and IMUHO, provides a more accurate and *informative* picture of Hannibal's battles, including Trebia, etc.

Hannibal did NOT feign a "tactical retreat". He used a **weak** Center as someone stated. The troops used in the center were Gauls. In other words, Hannibal presented a battle situation to the Roman general(s) whereby the *obvious* point to focus an attack was the Center.

Understand a *weak* center is only considered weak, because the troops on the flanks (not including cavalry) were better equipped and trained, overall they were Carthiginias (sp?), as opposed to lesser equipped, lesser trained, and *expendable* Gauls.

In MTW parlance (if I recall correctly), the middle might have been comprised of regular Spears or first level Sword units, while the flanks were say Chivalric Swords (or whatever. It wasn't as if the Center was comprised of Peasants.

As for the Cannae battle tactics and the TW series, the Tactics (and the battle) can be played out with a fair degree of reality, excepting RTW.

In STW, the AI had an enormous tendancy to attack the Middle, and particularly so with its Knights (and to our great chagrin its General!). So, in presenting a *weak* middle in STW, the AI would react VERY much as Romans and continually shove units toward the Center. It was always a great tactic to have Archers in your second or third line to pummel the AI's troops attacking the middle, a huge AI mass, how could the Archers miss. The better the Archers the more the massacre.

In MTW, the AI's tendancy to attack the Center was a bit more subdued than STW, but the tendancy still remained. In fact, by presenting a *weak* middle, and placing your General behind the middle (like Hannibal), this served two purposes.

One, the AI is aware that killing the General is a high objective and usually leads to victory. So placing your General in a weak position attracks the AI to focus its attack at that point.

Second, placing your General directly **near** the weak center troops, causes them to Hold longer, that is they won't Flee as easily or quickly.

With the General close and setting the weak center troops on *Hold Position* the troops would usually fight to the death, given a decent 3 star or better general and the troops have modest experience 2/3 or so.

MTW's AI had a tendancy to attack toward the General, so again, MTW's AI would shovel troops toward the Center. Though, the AI would certainly attempt to Flank with its Cavalry or whatever. A player needed to watch for this and be prepared. I found that once you noticed the AI positioning to flank, a counter positioning would give the AI pause! and the AI's battle focus would resume toward the Center.

I also found that, when attempting Hannibals flanking manuever, either with Cav or Foot, it was prudent to do so with a *Screen* of Spears, as the AI tended to react with its Cavalry. A unit of Spears on Wedge and Hold would take care of the AI's cav and the flanking could continue, just as at Cannae.

The general gist to take away from it all is to use a *Strong* unit to Flank to one side or the other, defeating a **single** AI/Opponnet unit, and then using the remainder of that unit as well as that of the initial unit that had taken on the enemey flanked unit to continue flanking other AI/Opponent units. Just as Hannibal did with his Heavy Cavalry at his left flank.

Unfortunately, the documentary doesn't give a representation of the *attrition* that occurred as the troops engaged. One must rightly presume that Hannibals Heavy Cav suffered losses as it defeated the Roman Cav. In the MTW example, above, after the initial flanking success, a player may have a couple of units, that in total, only comprise 25-50% of a single unit (not to mention that they are now Uber troops, tired Uber troops), BUT that is enough to hit another AI/Opponnet unit at the side, or, preferrably, at the rear, and cause it to cave and **Flee**. After which its just a *rolling* effect down the line, with the **Flight** effect gradually prevading the AI/Opponnents troops, and they all run.

To more precisely emulate Cannae, the Fleeing effect would have to be toned down quite a bit, BUT, overall the Outcome and the general Tactics can be **almost** precisely effected in STW and more so, in MTW/VI/MedMod, particularly so, given these versions' Terrain effects and Unit Settings, which differ so greatly from RTW.

n00bicus,

This means you would be wiser to station extra troops immediately behind the point you expect to be pushed back in.

Quite right! One or two units held in reserve to plug the middle was ALWAYS prudent, though the need was definitely dependant upon the quality of the Center troops.

Generally, in MTW, my Center was comprised thusly,

W x x W
a a
g
r

W = unit on Wedge and Hold Position (I started this in STW because of the AI tendancy to quickly charge its Knights. I think it did this because it saw the General *weakly* defended by just a couple of units of weak troops.)
x = unit on Hold Position
a = Archers
g = General
r = Reserve Unit

You're also right that the TW engine doesn't really allow for the Center to be "Pushed-Back". So, how I developed my tactic was to still use a Convex formation resembling a stepped pyramid:

w x x w
F x aa x F
F g F
r

Simply put, primarly, using the F units to Flank, in this way moving my flank units forward, Convex to Straight, and then the outter most Flank units to Concave. Of course there are variations, and, in order to carry out the manuver, your middle MUST MUST **Hold***.

Impossible to effect in RTW 1.1, and very difficult in 1.2.

Took me YEARS to *perfect* the Tactic. In all TW versions save the MedMod (and not including RTW), using the tactic and a *single* stack, ultimately, I could defeat **any** number of AI stacks. The size of the AI force began not to matter, the only thing was how well I, as the General, effected the manuevers. There in lied the Challenge---to be Hannibal, Ceasar, whomever. Ultimately, it was **Generalship** that mattered. It's what's missing in RTW.

Is there anyway to download all these episodes of Time Commanders or even this program legally? Because I don't have Discovery Channel. Actually, i doubt I can even get it here.

Unfortunately, my PC isn't setup properly, so I can't pull it off my DVR, but maybe someone else can. If so, it could be uploaded to one of the Usenet *binary* groups, but NO, it won't be *legal*. Though, I doubt the Discovery channel is having a problem with folks poaching their content. ;)

[Oh well, my little diagrams won't space correctly when posted. Hope you can imagine what I mean.]

~ToranagaSama