Limiting Elite Units

[Turin]

So, how is EB going to keep the lower quality units from being totally ecplised in the later game?

Here's my idea, it's quite simple: training turns!

We all know that from most factions, money isn't much of a problem after about 20 years. So at that point a play just trains the most expensive units that he has tech for.

Obviously, historical armies were composed of not just elites. And training cost is not a feasible way of limiting elite proliferation.

You might notice that for the units with multiple training turns, there is rarely proliferation. One can have legionnaires all over the place but not Urban cohorts, they just take too long to train. Also, because 2 legion cohorts can beat 1 urban cohort, there is an intrinsic motivation to produce regular legions and thus keep things historically correct. The same thing can be said with legionnary cavalry versus Roman cavalry.
This training turns trick is especially useful with the pre-Marians. As those who have played a Roman campaign on 1.2 know, the Marius event is pushed back so there ends up being a proliferation of triarii and principe. There is no incentive to train hastati after principe become available. If you make hastati 1 turn to train and 2 turns for principe and triarii, then you have a big incentive to train hastati. To keep cavalry numbers at their historical levels, equite should take as long as 3 turns! The same thing can be done for all cavalry types in all factions. Historically there was always more infantry than cavalry in armies. But in RTW, cavalry predominates armies. I think higher maintaince costs and longer build times are in order to counter this.

[The Stranger]

that's true, but i think it's up to the player to decide if he wants to play historical or just for fun. a computer can't really decide and will never field a army of elites only, a human can so if he plays historical he won't too, but if he wants to play for fun i just might.

[SwordsMaster]

Well, I kinda agree, but.

If the only real difference between hastati and principes is experience, then wouldn´t it be possible to "unlock" the training of principes wen you get a unit of experienced hastati in the city?

Say you had an army of 4 hastati waring against the gauls. One of the units piked up 2 silver chevrons over a period of time. If you then walk that unit back to one of your cities you can upgrade it to principe even if your building level hasnt advanced. Wouldnt something like this be a better solution?

[The Stranger]

yeah and when you upgrade your bare-chested swordsmen armour and they are experienced you get a chosen swordsmen unit, but i don't that is possible, just have to wait for a few years.

[The Stranger]

btw experience isn't the only factor, money is too

[khelvan]

You can't retrain units to be something else. This isn't MTW in that respect, unfortunately.

[Steppe Merc]

that's true, but i think it's up to the player to decide if he wants to play historical or just for fun. a computer can't really decide and will never field a army of elites only, a human can so if he plays historical he won't too, but if he wants to play for fun i just might.

Dude, the point of the mod is history.

[Southern Hunter]

Turin,

I think that you have made a good suggestion. There needs to be some way to limit elite troops, and cost alone is not enough to do it in the current system. Since we can't have hastati becoming principe (game mechanics don't allow it), then making elite troops take longer to train would be a good mechanism.

No matter how expensive and long it takes to train elite troops, you know that there will always be a temptation to use them, at least a unit here and there :-)

Hunter

[jerby]

well, you could balance it in such a way. that (example) a unit of phalanx pikemen with 5 experience is just as powerfull as silver shields.

[Khan48]

I think it should be left alone how it is. I personally would not want to have realism shoved down my throat. A little self control is all that is needed to maintain realistic armies. It may be a mod of realism but no one will play it if they can't have a little fun. At teh least offer some kind of option to turn it on and off.

[Elthore]

How about exagerating the cost differences. So if hastati cost 100 denari, principes would cost around 1000, with a slightly higher than normal upkeep.This way the game would start off with armies composed almost all out of hastati, then as you got richer you could afford to train more principes. With higher end units getting exponentially more expensive.

the problem in RTWs economy is that large, advanced, and trading countries get too rich. Which is fine actually(on second thought), the cost of everything just doesnt go up at the same level...its like quick inflation i guess.

[Divinus Arma]

So, how is EB going to keep the lower quality units from being totally ecplised in the later game?

Here's my idea, it's quite simple: training turns!

While I do not pretend to speak for them, I think the EB team has this pretty much under control. It has been discussed in other threads.

The mod will be realistic enough to where an army full of elites is pretty much a ridiculous proposition. Likewise, a full stack of just about anything is going to be a pain to raise and keep as well.

Browse some of the threads in this forum and you will find the answers to any question you may have.

This particular subject seems taken care of for sure, with a combination of training turns and unit price.

[Randal]

How about exagerating the cost differences. So if hastati cost 100 denari, principes would cost around 1000, with a slightly higher than normal upkeep.This way the game would start off with armies composed almost all out of hastati, then as you got richer you could afford to train more principes. With higher end units getting exponentially more expensive.

That wouldn't work. The roman army isn't supposed to consist of nothing but Hastati in 220BC, and then slowly start to include more and more principes. It's supposed to be a more or less equal division of Hastati, Principes and Triarii. Your method might work for the truly rare elite units (praetorians and such) but not for the early Romans.

Training turns ought to work better. Still, to be realistic, it ought to be a system enabling the Romans to build all three types of early legionaries from the start, with cost and build time balancing the amount you take in your armies. (As well as self control, of course. If you really want to, you'll probably always be able to build silly armies.)

[Shigawire]

Good points Turin. And this needs to be addressed.

[Urnamma]

Training turns is a solution that was mooted and dumped. We're using a combination of things now. I can tell you that anyone will only be able to train a few elite units, and they will remain just what they are: 'elite'!

[The Stranger]

as said before, i think it should be left too the player it self, i never saw the AI field a total elite army, and it never will. but the player can choose if he wants too play it the way he wants and compose the army he wants

[Southern Hunter]

Umamma,

Nice to hear that a solution has been found. I will be more comfortable when you tell me what it is (!), but I understand some surprises must be left for release.

While training turns has been 'dumped', I might still expect that it is 'part' of a solution and realistic implementation? Raising a new 'elite' unit, such as a Morae of Spartans or a unit of armoured camels or something, really would take more than 6 months. There is the armour which must be made, the men and animals recruited, the special training, preparation for campaign, etc, etc

Cheers,

Hunter

[Sarcasm]

@ Southern Hunter:

*tik tak* You are getting sleepy, very very sleepy *tik tak*.....you will no longer question Urnamma on unit training *tik tak*.....Urnamma is All-Knowing and All-Seeing....*tik tak*....When I snap my fingers you will be filled with new-found sense of confidence in our unit coordinator...*tik tak*




*SNAP!*

[Rodion Romanovich]

How about exagerating the cost differences. So if hastati cost 100 denari, principes would cost around 1000, with a slightly higher than normal upkeep.This way the game would start off with armies composed almost all out of hastati, then as you got richer you could afford to train more principes. With higher end units getting exponentially more expensive.

the problem in RTWs economy is that large, advanced, and trading countries get too rich. Which is fine actually(on second thought), the cost of everything just doesnt go up at the same level...its like quick inflation i guess.

I think the example of hastati, principes, triarii is a bad example for limiting of elite units. The romans didn't use hastati just because they were easier to get, but because they had certain strengths the principes lacked. Light, speedy troops that could soften up the enemy. Principes were heavier and triarii had their spears which were effective in flank charges and against cavalry. It's unrealistic to make principes more expensive and require more technology tree levels, they were created at the same time in Rome, and the player should be more or less forced create a mixed army with them because their different strengths should be visible. For example hastati should be faster with high charge but low attack and defense, and principes should be slow, have low charge and high attack and defense, whereas trarii should be slow, have very good attack, medium defense and very good charge plus bonus vs all mounted units, but no pilum so they can't replace principes even though they are powerful infantry. If you want a technology tree with upgrades you could have early hastati/principes/triarii and late hastati/principes/triarii IMO, with simply some upgrades in stats, or, alternatively, so that next building level means the newly created units get 1 or 2 chevrons of experience from start. For romans there's also the problem of forcing/tempting the player to require almost as much auxilia as regular troops. There, special abilities of auxilia in combination with lower training cost might be the solution. In conclusion I'd at least want to point out that principes aren't elite hastati and triarii aren't elite principes. They're as different troops as cavalry and archers.

Regarding elite units, a better example might be spartans vs armored hoplites (using the vanilla R:TW units as an example, because I don't know what units EB will use) or carthage's sacred band vs poeni infantry, or the silver shields of the seleucids vs phalanx pikemen. In those cases, it's really a question of elite units, where they are the same class of units with the same abilities as the units earlier in the technology tree, but with better stats in pretty much all aspects. In those cases, training turns and extreme cost is a solution that I agree is good.

[econ21]

Urnamma
Nice to hear that a solution has been found. I will be more comfortable when you tell me what it is (!), but I understand some surprises must be left for release.

Yes, Urnamma's post is tantalising. One solution would be to limit elites to unique buildings (like Turkey's Janissaries from an Academy in MTW). Not sure if allowing only one of a given building is possible in RTW, though.

[Dooz]

@ Southern Hunter:

*tik tak* You are getting sleepy, very very sleepy *tik tak*.....you will no longer question Urnamma on unit training *tik tak*.....Urnamma is All-Knowing and All-Seeing....*tik tak*....When I snap my fingers you will be filled with new-found sense of confidence in our unit coordinator...*tik tak*




*SNAP!*

Moo.

...


DAMN!

[Southern Hunter]

Good to see Umamma has everything under control

Hunter

[Copperhaired Berserker!]

I think that if you put the prices and upkeep up, and put unit training longer and making the elite units require certain bulidings then all is well!Hoorah!

[Sarcasm]

Man......change that bloody signature, I almost had a seizure for crying out loud

[The Stranger]

don't blame him he has no life

[Copperhaired Berserker!]

please have mercy!

[Steppe Merc]

We just said that we're not messing with the training times. It'll mainly be cost, but it's a combo, like Urnamma said.

[Ancientgamer]

Maybe to raise an elite unit you have to give 2 pints of blood at the hospital. Then you call the EB team and they give you a serial to unlock one elite unit.

I guess you could always donate someone elses blood though. Ok, so you have to wait for a DNA check to come back. Two weeks tops.