spears and pikes

**jerby** · 03-27-2005, 18:35

silver shield will be for both, at least, i thought i read that.
but still, there is so little evidence for teh equipment of hyspastistai that EB ahs free room to do whatever they want. so a hoplite-model will make MAcedon my favorite faction: pikemen, phalangites, 'heavy' peltast, 'companion cav', to be honest I'was already jumping up and down when I read macedon will have silver shields.

**Drag0nUL** · 03-28-2005, 08:18

I doubt hypaspists will have sarissas(I assume these are the long_pikes).If you look at the pictures of the macedonian and seleucid hiypaspistai in the news thread, they look more like hoplites: the large aspis and armor; also their spear is one-handed so I assume it will be shorter than the sariisa.

**jerby** · 03-28-2005, 14:38

yeah you're right. i'm still in rtw where even sarissa's are onehanded. the shield is too big for pikemen, but the spear looks long... but you're right. they also have heavy armor. thnx

**Sarcasm** · 03-29-2005, 00:32

Hypaspists will use the same method of fighting as regular hoplites for the Greek.

Pikemen will be represented like pretty much everything else, historically. Pikemen were not overwhelmingly superior to regular hoplites or Iphikrateans for that matter.

**Furious Mental** · 03-29-2005, 05:14

Are they superior at all though?

**Mr Frost** · 03-30-2005, 00:52

Originally Posted by Furious Mental

Are they superior at all though?

Yes : their pikes should quite likely possess a clear superiority over the shorter Hoplite spears when engaged in the singular feat of being long .

**jerby** · 03-30-2005, 16:10

Originally Posted by Sarcasm

Hypaspists will use the same method of fighting as regular hoplites for the Greek.

Pikemen will be represented like pretty much everything else, historically. Pikemen were not overwhelmingly superior to regular hoplites or Iphikrateans for that matter.

I thougt phillip designed the pikemen to counter teh hoplites, so it should be superior, HOW will you amke it superior. because in RTW the pikelength doesn't seem to matter. hoplites still get in range and still win ( head to head, 1 vs 1)

**Hakonarson** · 03-31-2005, 00:17

We don't really know exactly how effective Phillip thought his pikemen would be.

The most popular theory that I've heard is that he wanted troops who could stand up to hoplites, and he took Iphicrates reforms a step further to achieve this.

So basically the pikemen were hoplite-equivalents - but much cheaper, and without the need to reorganise Macedonian society along Greek lines.

AFAIK when hoplites and pikemen met the pikes won only after all the rest of hte hoplite army was defeated and the hoplites isolated - such as at Granikos and Issos. This implies that hoplites and pikemen were evenly matched.

**Sarcasm** · 03-31-2005, 01:43

Hakonarson explains it as I would. Cost-efectiveness and cultural reasons, led to the pikeman. It also allowed to maintain a semi-professional army.

I might also point out that at Chaeronea the hoplitai were driving the Macedonian left flank phalanx off the heights, and only Alexander´s Hetaroi were able to save the day. One can argue that if the Thebans and Athenians had been more experienced and a joint command they would have been able to win.

Pikemen and hoplites were at least evenly matched, like Hakonarson said.