origins of the scots

[nokhor]

to those of you who are scottish? what is taught in school as to where the scots left before they arrived in scotland. i don't want to start any brouhaha but i have read several different historical works that disagree about where the scots originated from, and i just want to know what the scottish take on it is.

[Meneldil]

I always thought Scots came from northen Ireland. At least that's what I've been told in Scotland.

[The Blind King of Bohemia]

The term scot comes from scotti which the romans called the irish pirates, it means raider. The scots came from modern day ulster and creating the kingdom of Dal Raida in west scotland and were always at war with the Picts who were the priginal inhabitants of scotland. Some say the scots and picts absorbed into one another through marriages but some say it was after many Pictish nobility were massacred by the scots in a treacherous attack during a treaty or meeting.

[KukriKhan]

BBC has a pretty good site with some of that info:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/scottis...acalpine.shtml

Seems pre-800c.e. events are kind of shrouded in myth, mystery & legend. Once christianity & the monks arrived, some records started being kept.

Bottom line looks to be Picts & Gaels united vs. Vikings brought about assimilation & intermarriage.

[caesar44]

are not the scot's a celtic tribe or a least comes from the celts-britons ?
the roman conquered britannia but not caledonia so the celts there became the picts and scots ?

[Byzantine Prince]

Well Picts are very different from Scots. It's true that Scot were Celtic. Picts however probably weren't. The picts were of rather short stature and of dark complexion.They are believed to have arrived in Scotland from the Continent about 1000 bc and in Ireland from Scotland about 200AD, which probably explains why there are darker people in Ireland and Scotland.

[caesar44]

ok
about the picts its a surprise to me

[Uuradach]

The Scots indeed did come from Northern Ireland, or Ulster. Hence why you have Dal Riata and Dalriada. They are also known as Gaels.

They raided into Britain, then settled in Argyll. They fought against the Picts, Britons of Strathclyde and even the Angles of Northumbria.

The Scots suffered both a periods of stability and having Pictish overlordship.

The Picts, well, most evidence now suggests that they were more than likely Celts and possibly spoke a Brittonic language similar to that of the Britons of Strathckyde and Goddodin before the latter fell to the Angles.

Pictish placenames today support the theory. E.g Aber, Pitt, Fin etc. Places in Scotland with names beginning with these such as Aberdeen, Findochtry, Pittenween are considered to be traditionally Pictish.

Many people believe the Picts were all wiped out, in fact it's not the case. Indeed it's possible that Kenneth MacAlpine killed his rivals via treachery, but in battle with the Vikings around 839 AD much of the Pictish nobility was wiped out in battle. Also, there were still Pictish Monarchs long after Kenneth's death.

More or less, the Picts were the victims of culutral imperialism, Scottish language and culture seems to have supplanted that of the Picts.

[GoreBag]

The Scots indeed did come from Northern Ireland, or Ulster. Hence why you have Dal Riata and Dalriada. They are also known as Gaels.

They raided into Britain, then settled in Argyll. They fought against the Picts, Britons of Strathclyde and even the Angles of Northumbria.

The Scots suffered both a periods of stability and having Pictish overlordship.

The Picts, well, most evidence now suggests that they were more than likely Celts and possibly spoke a Brittonic language similar to that of the Britons of Strathckyde and Goddodin before the latter fell to the Angles.

Pictish placenames today support the theory. E.g Aber, Pitt, Fin etc. Places in Scotland with names beginning with these such as Aberdeen, Findochtry, Pittenween are considered to be traditionally Pictish.

Many people believe the Picts were all wiped out, in fact it's not the case. Indeed it's possible that Kenneth MacAlpine killed his rivals via treachery, but in battle with the Vikings around 839 AD much of the Pictish nobility was wiped out in battle. Also, there were still Pictish Monarchs long after Kenneth's death.

More or less, the Picts were the victims of culutral imperialism, Scottish language and culture seems to have supplanted that of the Picts.

I've read that Kenneth MacAlpin was actually king of both Scots and Picts by marriage, after his father, king of the Scots, was killed in battle (with the Picts, unsurprisingly), but since Kenneth's mother was a Pict of some importance, there was a reasonable claim to the throne. Kenneth is considered the first king of what is now today Scotland, giving his new, united kingdom the name it retains now, Alba.

The regions of Scotland (Moray, Fib, Orkney, etc.) are, mythologically speaking, the names of the sons of the last king of Pictland.

Well Picts are very different from Scots. It's true that Scot were Celtic. Picts however probably weren't. The picts were of rather short stature and of dark complexion.They are believed to have arrived in Scotland from the Continent about 1000 bc and in Ireland from Scotland about 200AD, which probably explains why there are darker people in Ireland and Scotland.

Some historical truth to the old "Black Irishman" stories? I believe the Picts were Celts, however, based on the few artifacts of Pictdom that have been uncovered, mostly things like menhirs and the carvings upon them.

[Uuradach]

I've read that Kenneth MacAlpin was actually king of both Scots and Picts by marriage, after his father, king of the Scots, was killed in battle (with the Picts, unsurprisingly), but since Kenneth's mother was a Pict of some importance, there was a reasonable claim to the throne. Kenneth is considered the first king of what is now today Scotland, giving his new, united kingdom the name it retains now, Alba.

The regions of Scotland (Moray, Fib, Orkney, etc.) are, mythologically speaking, the names of the sons of the last king of Pictland.



Some historical truth to the old "Black Irishman" stories? I believe the Picts were Celts, however, based on the few artifacts of Pictdom that have been uncovered, mostly things like menhirs and the carvings upon them.

The Seven Traditional Kingdoms of Pictland according to the Foundation Myth recorded by the Irish are as follows ( Note, I am also going to give their modern equivalent). I'll also start from the extreme North. Also, in the foundation myth, these Kingdoms were also the names of the seven sons of Cruithne, the supposed father of the Picts.

Cat - and I've also seen it as "Cait", this Kingdom roughly corresponds to modern Caithness, Sutherland, Western Highlands and the Northern and Western Isles.

Fidach - The modern areas of Moray, Nairn and Ross.

Ce - Banff, Buchan and parts of Aberdeenshire.

Circinn/Circind/Cirech - Corresponds to the modern Angus and The Mearns.

Fotla (Note, there's an Irish Goddess named Fotla.) This is the modern area of Athol and Gowrie

Fortriu - Modern areas of Strathearn and Menteith

Fib - Modern Fife, Fife today is still known as "The Kingdom of Fife".

As for Kenneth, his father Alpin was captured by the Picts in Battle, and was then reputedly beheaded ritually (The Picts may have ritually decapitated, or drowned important prisoners), some scholars believe the Sueno Stone depicts this. Kenneth's mother was allegedly a Pictish Princess and thus he had a claim to the throne, he was already rule of the Scots before he took the Pictish crown.

At this time, the Picts were certainlyt weakened, the Vikings had wiped out much of the nobility in battle, and there's several civil wars recorded by other Kingdoms such as Strathclyde etc. Can't say that I've read anyhting on Kenneth's wife, at least not in anyhting that I have read to date.

To be honest, everyone has their own theories and ideas about the subject, and it's one that is good for debate. As for the dark hair and skin, you just have to look at parts of Wales. Some Welsh are dark skinned and dark haired, whereas others aren't. Even the Roman writers commented on the Silures being darker skinned.

[Pooma]

If you wan't to get seriously mythic I'm sure I read at school that Scotland is supposed to have been founded by a suvivor of Troy and his followers. Since I remember his name as being something like Brutus this is probably another case of "well if it's a good enough story for the Romans to make up it's a good enough story for us to..."

Don't suppose anyone else remember that?

[Craterus]

i've never heard a story like that?

[ShadesPanther]

Well the story of the stone of Scone(sp) is strange too. Aparantly it came from an egyptian princes marrying the scottish king who brought with her the rock that Joseph lay on for his famous dream.

[Red Harvest]

i've never heard a story like that?

Which part, the Romans? or the Scots coming from Troy? Both are genuine myths from long ago.

[nokhor]

i've come across this pictish epic poem about a great warrior, fingol, who battles against carcul, 'the son of the king of the world' the heavily outnumbered fingol of course defeats the hordes of carcul in a climactic battle, who coward that he is, scampers away.

the same event is narrated according to the roman historians as the emperor septimus severus led a punitive expedition against the picts because of their raiding against roman britain. he quickly overran the country, and never faced any serious armies, just minor skirmishing. in one of the minor skirmishes, his son and heir caracalla was ambushed and defeated. anyways, septimus realizing that the land was basically worthless and not worth the cost of occupation, withdrew his forces after chastising the raiders.

so the exact same event is seen as a great victory by both sides. the picts fought their version of the mother of all battles and forced the cowardly evil empire to retreat. and the romans successfully punished the raiding barbarians who were too cowardly to face them in a real battle.

[GoreBag]

If you wan't to get seriously mythic I'm sure I read at school that Scotland is supposed to have been founded by a suvivor of Troy and his followers. Since I remember his name as being something like Brutus this is probably another case of "well if it's a good enough story for the Romans to make up it's a good enough story for us to..."

Don't suppose anyone else remember that?

That reminds me of the Book of Invasions.

[Duke Malcolm]

There are many theories as to who travelled with the Lia Fail/Stone of Destiny/Stone of Scone to Scotland

One is that it was a Hebrew King and another that it was the daughter of an Egyptian Pharoeh (who was allegedly called Scota). God only knows, though.
The Gaels came to Scotland from Ireland, to there from Spain (about 4000 years ago, I think), to Spain from Sicily, to Sicily from the Middly East. This is definite, though.

The Stone came to Scotland, or Dal Riada, from Ireland for the Crowning of King Fergus Mac Erc, 1st King of the Scots (of Dal Riada) in about 500 AD. (Fergus was the son of an Irish High King.) They said that they would give the stone back, but they never did. It either lies in Edinburgh Castle, or hidden from the King of England, where it may have been since the Wars of Independence.

In 842, King Kenneth II of the Scots defeated the last Pictish Army, and was crowned King Kenneth of Scots and Picts (although "and Picts" was dropped later). The King of Picts was selected from one of the houses of the sevens sons of Cruithne (who has the second moon of Earth named after him), after whom the regions are named earlier. After 842, these became Thanes, then Earls, and some are now Dukes, and Marquesses, and the regions changed to Buchan, Mar, Angus, Atholl, Strathearn, Fife,and Moray. These seven nobles (although they were more-or-less Kings, and are called Righ occassionally, meaning King in Gaelic) elected the King (or Ard Righ, meaning High King) and advised him, although more nobles were given the right to do so. They made up the King's Council of the Seven Earls.

The prophecy inscribed on the Stone more or less translates to what it says in my sig, and has remained true to this day, ever since it was blessed by St Patrick.

[nokhor]

'the second moon of earth'? please explain. i know of only one moon of that planet.

[ShadesPanther]

http://philologos.org/bpr/files/Sky_Signs/ss025.htm