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Thread: "Egyptian" Holywood mummies...necessary?

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  1. #1
    Master of Puppets Member hellenes's Avatar
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    Default "Egyptian" Holywood mummies...necessary?

    While observing the wide abuse of the dumbed down for the ignorant masses overpowered "Egyptian" units online, and the reaction from the veteran players, I have a question: Was it necessary to dedicate all that time and money to make up, design, and generally allocate recourses on a concept that insults the intelligence of its audience and incourages immature gameplay?
    Would the community miss the mummies if it got the Hellenic Ptolemaic faction?

    Hellenes
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    The best choose one thing in exchange for all, everflowing fame among mortals; but the majority are satisfied with just feasting like beasts.

  2. #2

    Default Re: "Egyptian" Holywood mummies...necessary?

    When you target your product at 12 year olds or thereabouts, yes it makes perfect sense that Egypt and lots of other stuff would be represented in a way that conforms to their concept of history which is largely formed by Hollywood movies. I remember one CA executive saying in an interview that RTW was like a movie. He said that as a selling point for the game. We'll just forget about Egypt not even trying to fight Alexander only 50 years before RTW's starting date, and imagine that Egypt had an extremely powerful army that they chose not to use.

    The community that has gathered here for the last four years was not the target audience of RTW. CA was not candid about that. Tim Ansel has his 30 million dollars, and the Total War series has been a successful endeavor for him. I'm left with the most expensive game in the series having the worst gameplay, and a growing realization that none of the mods people are working on can fix the underlying problems. In MTW, several mods were made which played very well, but the more I look at RTW's mechanics the less I believe it can be modded to work well. So, even if the Egyptians are replaced with hellenic type units, I don't think that would fix the game enough for me.

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  3. #3
    Member Member Alexander the Pretty Good's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Egyptian" Holywood mummies...necessary?

    There is hope Puzz3D - Check out Europa Barbarorum. There are doing everything they legally and physically can differently from vanilla RTW.

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    American since 2012 Senior Member AntiochusIII's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Egyptian" Holywood mummies...necessary?

    Have you ever been forced to sit in a damn boring history class where you know everything (and I mean everything) that is being taught already but was forced to listen to ignorant sh*ts keep insulting other nations will simple-minded and stupid questions as if the Asians are some sort of another species? With the teacher teaching like: "France was the biggest guy in the street but got beat 'up by *England* so they came back to piss them off in America?"

    That's pathetic.

    And I believe this is Rome's target customers.

    So, the mummies must be here.

  5. #5
    Thread killer Member Rodion Romanovich's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Egyptian" Holywood mummies...necessary?

    Quote Originally Posted by Puzz3D
    When you target your product at 12 year olds or thereabouts, yes it makes perfect sense that Egypt and lots of other stuff would be represented in a way that conforms to their concept of history which is largely formed by Hollywood movies. I remember one CA executive saying in an interview that RTW was like a movie. He said that as a selling point for the game. We'll just forget about Egypt not even trying to fight Alexander only 50 years before RTW's starting date, and imagine that Egypt had an extremely powerful army that they chose not to use.

    The community that has gathered here for the last four years was not the target audience of RTW. CA was not candid about that. Tim Ansel has his 30 million dollars, and the Total War series has been a successful endeavor for him. I'm left with the most expensive game in the series having the worst gameplay, and a growing realization that none of the mods people are working on can fix the underlying problems. In MTW, several mods were made which played very well, but the more I look at RTW's mechanics the less I believe it can be modded to work well. So, even if the Egyptians are replaced with hellenic type units, I don't think that would fix the game enough for me.
    Well said. I can't deny though, that Rome has been fun, but they way it's been made is a waste of the potential the engine could have had. The basic idea with the new style for the campaign map with free movement instead of provinces like in M:TW and the 3D rendered armies is a good start, but unfortunately R:TW has failed to implement the best parts of M:TW together with this good start. The battle speed is another thing that's been made to target 12 years old players - keeping reserves and waiting for enemies to be pinned is no longer a useful tactic, and cavalry is way too overpowered.

    And a question - how many 12 years old players DO play R:TW? Not many, I think. Those who do play R:TW, are usually such noobs at tactics that they barely know about basic concepts like flanking and fake charging. It would have been much better to continue targeting the older customers, this way there's a chance they'll lose them and the 12 years old gamers won't start buying R:TW anyway...

    BTW Europa Barbarorum looks nice, but they can't change the most important things, like game mechanics, bugs and changes on the stratetical level. All they can do is change unit stats, change unit skins, faction names, faction starting provinces and provinces. They're doing an ambitious work but as long as the unrealism on the strategical level as well as bugs and some AI problems can't be changed, most improvements in the mods will be of the visual kind, not of the technical kind.
    Under construction...

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    Blue Eyed Samurai Senior Member Wishazu's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Egyptian" Holywood mummies...necessary?

    they can change the way battles are fought, on RTR(another great mod) cos of the slowdown in kill speeds etc. its actually possible to have units properly engage 1 another, cav is no longer a WMD and you can actually use proper tactics etc.
    "Wishazu does his usual hero thing and slices all the zombies to death, wiping out yet another horde." - Askthepizzaguy, Resident Evil: Dark Falls

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    Master of Puppets Member hellenes's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Egyptian" Holywood mummies...necessary?

    What makes me wonder most is: are the people so ignorant and of so low intelligence as the entertainers (books, movies, games) presume?
    Or its more convenient to keep the masses in darkness?
    Would it hurt anyone if there was a faction called Ptolemaic Empire with eagle banner, elephants Hellenistic pikemen and heavy cavalry?
    Would anyone come out and say I dont like them they are unrealistic, dump looking? Or people would in an easy and not boring (as a history class can be) shape automatically a fairy accurate image of that area at that time?
    Just wonder...

    Hellenes
    Impunity is an open wound in the human soul.


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    The best choose one thing in exchange for all, everflowing fame among mortals; but the majority are satisfied with just feasting like beasts.

  8. #8
    Thread killer Member Rodion Romanovich's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Egyptian" Holywood mummies...necessary?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wishazu
    they can change the way battles are fought, on RTR(another great mod) cos of the slowdown in kill speeds etc. its actually possible to have units properly engage 1 another, cav is no longer a WMD and you can actually use proper tactics etc.
    Yes, kill rates and unit balancing during battle can be changed. But some important balancing issues in battle can't be changed. Examples:

    * chariots should be very weak and unmanouverable in steep terrain
    * cavalry should be a little weaker in steep terrain

    chariots should still be as powerful as they are on flat ground, but if you want to give chariots the relatively small strategical importance it had in the R:TW period, you'd have to remove their strengths too by decreasing attack stats etc. That's only an emergency solution to the problem, and not a good one. However, the R:TW mechanics don't allow anything better due to lack of modability. Same thing is the case for cavalry - you can't deny cavalry was extremely powerful on flat ground even in those days, but a defender with weak cavs against an opponent with strong cavs would seldom be stupid enough to pick a battlefield with flat ground if it was possible to avoid.

    The most important thing to balance in order to improve realism is the stratetical level. As Sun Tzu said: strategy without tactics is the slowest way to victory, tactics without strategy is the noise before defeat. The strategy is FAR more important than the tactics, but the mods can't change much more than tactics. Modding to change things at the strategical level will affect gameplay much more than some modding of the battles. Some bugs like the siege bug, which mods can't do much about (although there are some "emergency solutions" to that problem too by making AI assaults more likely), further limit the strategy map.

    One thing I heard when CA announced the game was that they had finished the game when their producer told them they'd get another entire year to play around with the game and improve it. They apparently spent that time making the campaign map in 3D instead of in 2D like it was in M:TW and originally was inteded in R:TW. IMO they could have spent that time fixing those bugs, and AI, instead...

    Like I said I'm impressed by the work carried out by EB and RTR and others, but unfortunately their work can't address the worst issues in R:TW because of the limitations of the engine.

    I'd also like to say CA did an amazing work in some aspects, but the lack of modability in combination with the bugs and the 2-patches-only treaty with their former producer Activision, along with the imo very stupid and greedy decision to target 12 years old players instead of giving their main consumer group what they want has led to the central parts of the engine not living up anywhere close to it's full potential.
    Under construction...

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  9. #9
    Master of Puppets Member hellenes's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Egyptian" Holywood mummies...necessary?

    The question was:
    If there werent any 12yolds' favourite dumped down "Egyptian" mummies would anyone miss them?
    Would it harm anyone to say: "Hey at Rome's time there were no "Egyptians" but the Greeks ruled there!!I didnt know that!!"
    Would some enjoyable(gaming) education harm anyone?

    Hellenes
    Impunity is an open wound in the human soul.


    ΑΙΡΕΥΟΝΤΑΙ ΕΝ ΑΝΤΙ ΑΠΑΝΤΩΝ ΟΙ ΑΡΙΣΤΟΙ ΚΛΕΟΣ ΑΕΝΑΟΝ ΘΝΗΤΩΝ ΟΙ ΔΕ ΠΟΛΛΟΙ ΚΕΚΟΡΗΝΤΑΙ ΟΚΩΣΠΕΡ ΚΤΗΝΕΑ

    The best choose one thing in exchange for all, everflowing fame among mortals; but the majority are satisfied with just feasting like beasts.

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