Would there be sufficient demand for a balance fix mod?

[Crandaeolon]

Some time ago, Louis made some balance improvement suggestions, but that thread got dead & buried. I'd like to revisit the issue briefly.

Just wondering if anyone would use a mod that fixes vanilla 1.2 balance. Unlike the larger mods that dramatically alter the gameplay, this one would focus only on correcting the current balance problems. Along these lines:

- Unbalanced units fixed and elite unit prices set to more correct values.

- RPS strengthened a bit. Mainly spear and camel bonuses, javelin effectiveness, phalanx effectiveness vs. cavalry.

- Faction balance tweaked a bit by giving the weakest factions an additional option or two.

- A minor decrease in killing speed, but NO decrease in movement speed.

- Unit bugs fixed (parthian shot, Pontic pike hoplite size etc.)

Let's assume that it would be very easy to install and use; just a new shortcut on the desktop, no modifications to the actual game itself. No need to have multiple copies of RTW on the machine.

So, whaddya think? Would something like this get any support?

[Wishazu]

if some1 is willing to make it then im willing to try it.

[NihilisticCow]

I would certainly be interested as this is something I have often thought about (and experimented with) as I am most interested in playing multiplayer games, but am not particularly drawn to the larger mods (they do not seem to get played much online anyway).
The problem I guess would be the complexity in balancing, with the sheer number of factions and units in play, but any improvement to the balance (and making more factions competitive) would be welcome... Just have to get people online to play the mod......

As regards the changes, I always think a minimalist approach would be best (only doing was is absolutely necessary - no adding/removing units - just making existing units more/less effective or affordable as appriopriate) and rationalising some of the unit sizes (you mentioned Pontic bronze shield unit size).

Btw, what is the bug with the parthian shot? It seems to work fine for me.

[Crandaeolon]

Just have to get people online to play the mod......

That has been the greatest hurdle in past TW games... but, Rome is more unbalanced than either STW or MTW, and a quick question "Do you think this game is balanced?" in the chat lobbies sparked quite a firestorm... so it appears that a minimalistic balance fix mod could have at least _some_ support.

As regards the changes, I always think a minimalist approach would be best

Yes, of course. No units would be added or removed - but this does leave the problem of Gauls. They need an affordable missile unit or some other option to be competitive in 10k games.

Btw, what is the bug with the parthian shot?

In RTW 1.2, some horse archer units and chariots cannot fire on the move anymore. This is a documented bug, and it can be fixed by giving the horse archers the "thrown" attribute in stat_pri_attr. The only side effect is that the targeting cursor looks like a javelin...

you mentioned Pontic bronze shield unit size

Actually, it's the Pontic "Phalanx Pikemen" unit that feels illogical - the bronze shields are ok. Somewhere in the modding forum is a unit bug thread, which is where most of the "bugfix" info comes from.

[NihilisticCow]

Funnily enough, my attempts to play as Gaul started me thinking about the game balance... can't imagine why.
I regularly play 10k games, but playing as Gaul, the high cost of foresters seems to drastically weaken my armies before the game has begun (and they always seem to lose missile - missile duels with other elite archers anyway because of their low armour)... and they just don't have the units to play without them easily (without ambushing - which is rather predictable on many maps and easily dealt with).
I think that lowering the cost of these to a bit lower than the chosen archers (after all this is Gauls main strength and difference, and the chosens have much higher armour anyway) may go some way to helping Gaul. Their strongish melee shouldn't be too much of an issue in overpowering them.

This and increasing the effectiveness of the skirmishers would just leave mainly heavy cavalry problems that gaul also has trouble in numbers... (having weak cavalry and no spear infantry)... For this a buff to warbands might work, e.g. giving them the spear bonus attack versus cavalry (they do appear to have spears anyway)...

Hmmm... I've gone on a bit longer than I meant, but anyway, my point was you don't necessarily need new units for Gaul, there may well be solutions (though I'd love something like arcani for them to support hidden foresters without cavalry)...

[AquaLurker]

Gaul is simlpy weak in every aspect of the game, they have weak melee troops, weak cavalry and over priced archers. The army is simply ineffective against any non barbarian factions.

I think that in a 10k-12.5k games, the only barbarian faction that can put up a decent fight would be the Brits, spanish, Germanians and the Scythians. Dacians, Thracians and Gauls are nosense in multiplayer games.
Numidians can barely compete with any civilised factions. While the obviously over powered factions would be the egyptians and Romans(well duh!!).
All Cataphracts by all means are under priced.

IMHO, the armies that require balancing are basically the Gauls, Dacians, Thracians, Egypt and Rome.

Maybe, moders can try balancing the armies like what they did for SPQR, or maybe SPQR moders can lower their stats(and morale) to the level of the current vanilla RTW version for the general multiplayer community. It would be great!!! I like what they did for the units for all the factions especially egypt.

[NihilisticCow]

Gaul melee isn't that bad... not great but not bad... You just need to use warcry and having druids chanting behind the chosen swordmen. If done, 4 chosen swordsmen (who warcried) and 1 druid will beat 4 urban cohorts for cost. It's just the heavy cavalry which really causes problems...

[NihilisticCow]

I guess not many people think the game is particularly imbalanced or don't care...
I have been thinking recently (very unusual for me) about one change that might actually really help balance - adding the armour piercing attribute to javelin attacks (skirmishers, peltasts etc.)... This would mean that the javelin throwers (I'll just call them skirmishers) are actually effective against heavy infantry unlike archers.
I think that this would greatly improve battles, in that if a player goes mass heavy infantry, the skirmishers would cause a fair number of casualties (before they use up their javelins - they don't have many, which should keep everything balanced). This should soften up the infantry for a attack by the remaining forces. So a player should be forced to get archers/slingers etc. to counter the skirmishers....... in theory...
The same principle holds for cavalry, but of course skirmishers can be easily run down, so need support.
Adding this attribute to the javelin cavalry aswell may well be effective against heavy cavalry, and as javelin cavalry tends to be fast, heavy cavalry won't by itself be effective against it.

But what are people's opinions, I've seen this suggested before, but never any real comment. Do people disagree or think this is just a given. As it is a very small change, it may be possible to bully CA into making it....... we can but hope.

[Crandaeolon]

I guess not many people think the game is particularly imbalanced or don't care...

It's probably a mixture of both.

Good ideas there, folks. All input to the balance discussion is much appreciated.

If you've followed the other thread about cav spam, you've probably noticed the varied perceptions that people have about the game. That's another reason why peeps don't care that much about a mod that only "fixes" the gameplay. It's difficult to get past everyone's pet peeves - only CA could do that easily.

[AquaLurker]

I think CA while only rectify the Cav spam problem in the next total war series. Maybe they might even refine the balance of the game...I think. hmmmm....

[The_Mark]

Someone should get on with this, I, for one, would like to see this happen.

One point that should be looked into:
Roman cavalry. Praetorian cavalry cost less than catas and have 5 points better attack and only one point lower defense than catas. Legionnairy cav has same defense as praetorians and two points more attack than catas, and cost a lot less than catas.

[Crandaeolon]

Someone should get on with this, I, for one, would like to see this happen.

It's being done. That's why I put up this thread, to extend some antennae and feel the sentiments. And this is not the only place...

Roman cav (and cav in general) will definitely be looked into. And, when comparing catas to other cav, one should remember that the secondary (alt-click) attack of cataphracts is armour-piercing. Even though Praetorian cav have better stats on paper, they lose to catas in a head-on fight.

[The Hun]

I think maybe no point. People seem not to play Mods online and maybe expansion pack will put fixes to MP.

[The_Mark]

Ah yes, forgot about those maces (as I do in battles also). Still the praetorians are just as deadly (even more deadly) against other opponents.

It's good to hear that it's being done, I'm occasionally getting pissed off in MP because of the lack of balance.

Ja on aina mukavaa nähdä maanmiehiä.

[Crandaeolon]

I think maybe no point. People seem not to play Mods online and maybe expansion pack will put fixes to MP.

Opinion noted, and it's quite true to boot. Most probably won't bother with any modifications, unless they're somehow "officially" sanctioned and very easy to install. The XP is "only" about five months away, and it would probably take a few months still to develop a finely balanced mod as a community effort.

Sounds to me that a quick fix right NOW would be preferable to most players. Nothing surprising there... but the X-pack is indeed looming in the not-so-distant future.

Ah yes, forgot about those maces (as I do in battles also). Still the praetorians are just as deadly (even more deadly) against other opponents.

Try not to forget 'em in the future... they make all the difference. Even Praetorians get +2 to attack (but no AP) if you use the alt-click to make them switch to their swords in melee.

Praetorians are easily among the best cav units in the game, and the problem is compounded because Rome also has the best infantry in the game... and cheap long-range archers.

Ja on aina mukavaa nähdä maanmiehiä.

No niinpäs on. Pelaillaan joskus erä tai muutama, jos satutaan törmäämään linjoilla. Mun online-nimi on paljolti sama, mutta [FF] -etuliitteellä.

[NihilisticCow]

I think that one of the advantages to making some kind of balance fix mod would be that we don't in fact know what changes CA will be making to multiplayer game balance in the expansion - they could in fact just think that it's good enough and concentrate on the single player.

If there is a community supported balance fix, this could well end up being adopted by CA, providing there is sufficient support - as this would minimise any work they need to do. So basically I think that working on a balance mod would be a good thing - it would provide a fix to those of us who want it, and quite possibly influence CA for the expansion.

[Swoosh So]

Im so in favour of a balance mod and yet im against it, the main problem i see is the mod would use the same units as 1.2 this will never be accepted across the wider comunity as they are mostly lay peeps, remember the celti mod in vi? was a good mod but used same units as vi. id like to see a mod with new factions/units with a good balance that way people wouldent confuse units with 1.2 and could maintain a compeditive level in 1.2.

Bit on the other hand its about time the community got off its arse and all inputted to a blance mod and helped promote it. after all whats the big deal installing a mod and just playing the thing if its better than 1.2!!

I think a well crafted mod could suceed but always people make errors as they are only human, ie the new spqr mod 3.0 again the elite archers have 1 more missle stat than foot archers sigh* so for chosen archer u pay about 700 denarii for a little extra range? not even sure if they have that much extra range in spqr 3.0.

also be careful with the phalanx kanuni can use phalanx armies to great effect now and ive seen them getting more and more used in 1.2 usually phalanx with valour 1 upgrade, i guess if just changing cav bonuses should be fineor if taking off the secondary weapon to force spear fight may be a good idea with a reduction in cost perhaps for the elite phalanx units since they cant use sword if u do that.

The main problem is cav spam untill thats fixed the game will always have a major flaw :\

why not reduce the speed crand? part of the problem with cav is not having time to micro spears to counter a cav manuever, i still think 80% speed is fine or perhaps 85%. i pesonally would also raise all the small unit sizes of gladiators berzerkers generals and stuff will make them like new units on the battlefield and will give the mod some easily gained spice. of course stats and costs of those units would have to change also.

I really believe a speed drop would be ok, i see players say the speed is fine as it is but i also see these players struggle to cope with controlling 20 units, sometimes people just speak without thought.

also a lower speed would help u mend the current move and control bugs ie fixing it when it occurs like some units running ahead of intended ghost formation or the cav unit that gets stuck in a loose archer unit despite several clicks to get it out :\

heh just some chaotic thoughts.......

[Lord Adherbal]

id like to see a mod with new factions/units with a good balance that way people wouldent confuse units with 1.2 and could maintain a compeditive level in 1.2.

that's what ChivalryTW is - or tries to be. It's based on the medieval period which should be equally popular as the Greco-Roman time, and still evolves around the same tactics.

We've lowered overall unit speed by 15% and made more different undividual speeds (4 cavalry speeds, 3 infantry speeds). Cavalry now feels more like the ones from MTW by decreasing their mass and formation density. The priority of the mod is to bring back MTW's MP tactics in combination with the more flexible units and strategies of RTW (MTW feels very static now, even for light cavalry and infantry).

Did you try the last beta ? The MP activity of the first days after release has died out already, but we still have a small fanbase and I think the mod has a chance once we've released a campaignmap version so the people who prefer SP will download it too resulting in more potential multiplayers.

[Crandaeolon]

heh just some chaotic thoughts.......

Good stuff, keep it coming!

the main problem i see is the mod would use the same units as 1.2 this will never be accepted across the wider comunity as they are mostly lay peeps

Unless I remember horribly wrong, a CA person (or someone connected to CA?) said at one of the forums that it may be possible for CA to adopt a community-made balance mod for RTW, just like they did in Shog. That would, of course, fix the community acceptance problem...

... but the mod would really have to be "minimal", i.e. not too far from the original game. Preferably just cost adjustments, or minor stat modifications.

I think a well crafted mod could suceed but always people make errors as they are only human

Yep. There's also the problem that everyone has their pet peeves about the game, and many modders would like to include something that others don't agree with. Several modders, working together, would theoretically make less errors than one lone modder, but a collective modding effort is also much slower because of the occasional disagreements.

also be careful with the phalanx kanuni can use phalanx armies to great effect now and ive seen them getting more and more used in 1.2 usually phalanx with valour 1 upgrade, i guess if just changing cav bonuses should be fineor if taking off the secondary weapon to force spear fight may be a good idea with a reduction in cost perhaps for the elite phalanx units since they cant use sword if u do that.

With some microing, it's possible to "force" the phalanxes to use their primary weapons for a few seconds even if their formation is disrupted by the enemy (just use phalanx toggle or the "stop" command.) I bet Kanuni knows that. If he didn't, I just gave out a war secret. Bugger that.

I wouldn't touch phalanxes too much... like I've been saying all along, they're effective units if used correctly. They could use a small improvement vs. cav, though. BTW, I know you wolfies like to play with normal size... but have you tried hosting with the "Medieval" size? 60 men for basic inf, 40 for cav, 90 for large inf?

Some Celtiberos are already playing at that size, I think. It would make a good "standard" size IMO, it feels less flimsy than normal and can be played in 4vs4 games.

why not reduce the speed crand?

Skirmishing is one thing. In vanilla it's quite possible to charge & rout archers if the opponent is slow in reacting. OTOH, you _can_ block these raids, but it needs some focusing. It's the age-old issue of balancing the advantages of attacking and defending. With 85% speed, it's maybe a bit too easy to react to skirmishing.

Killrate is another. If units are slowed down, the killrate needs to be slowed down too, or the net result is that you won't be able to move your units to where they are needed as fast as before.

Fatigue is yet another. Marching & running still consumes the same amount of fatigue even though you don't get from place to place as fast as before. Unit fatigue would need to be rebalanced.

i see players say the speed is fine as it is but i also see these players struggle to cope with controlling 20 units

This is a very good point. Yup, it can be pretty hard to control 20 units with the fast speeds of RTW, and reducing speeds would help that. But... do we really want it? I'm sure that there are players who can adequately control all those 20 units with the current speeds, and reducing the speed would make those players lose some of the benefit that they get for rapid reactions.

Fast reactions & good controlling are skills just like tactical thinking, so should there be less reward for reactions & unit control? Duelists probably wouldn't like that, but teamplayers would.

i pesonally would also raise all the small unit sizes of gladiators berzerkers generals and stuff will make them like new units on the battlefield

That's another pretty good point. I once tried upping special unit size by 33% and was pretty happy with the results. Dunno if that would get accepted by CA, though...

We've lowered overall unit speed by 15% and made more different undividual speeds (4 cavalry speeds, 3 infantry speeds).

How'd you edit the individual speeds, Adherbal? Skeleton / animations modding?

[Lord Adherbal]

How'd you edit the individual speeds, Adherbal? Skeleton / animations modding?

yes, it requires you to edit the animations/skeletons.

[Puzz3D]

Yup, it can be pretty hard to control 20 units with the fast speeds of RTW, and reducing speeds would help that. But... do we really want it? I'm sure that there are players who can adequately control all those 20 units with the current speeds, and reducing the speed would make those players lose some of the benefit that they get for rapid reactions.

The gamespeed should be such that most players can control all 20 units. Players who react quicker would still have an advantage, but they would also have to have solid tactical thinking. There has been a huge shift away from tactical thinking toward fast reactions in RTW. If you are in the majority of players who cannot control all 20 units at the current speeds, you might as well not play.

[Orda Khan]

There would appear to be a shift in more than just tactical thinking IMO. There is a new breed of player these days, but if all the vets choose to vacate the game we should not be surprised.

I do not think Total War will be the same as it was, those days are over

.......Orda

[Mongoose]

"The gamespeed should be such that most players can control all 20 units. Players who react quicker would still have an advantage, but they would also have to have solid tactical thinking. There has been a huge shift away from tactical thinking toward fast reactions in RTW. If you are in the majority of players who cannot control all 20 units at the current speeds, you might as well not play."

Wait... wasn't MTW faster then shogun? Thats a bad trend

[Puzz3D]

Wait... wasn't MTW faster then shogun? Thats a bad trend

No. STW and MTW were the same. RTW running speeds are 50% faster, and you have 25% more units to control. In addition, there is approximately a 2 second delay before a unit responds to an order in RTW.

Now how does introducing a delay in unit response improve the gameplay when movement speed has been increased? Just imagine increasing the movement speed and the delay even more. It's apparent that it gives the player who moves first and advantage because it takes away a player's ability to respond to attacking moves. The balance between attack and defense in the gameplay becomes skewed to one side.

I know for a fact that you don't have to introduce the kind of movement speedup and delay to orders that exists in RTW in order to balance the attacker's chances. I know this because Samurai Wars for MTW/VI doesn't have this speedup and delay, and it still has good balance between attacking and defending, and the average length of a battle is 15 minutes so it has good pacing as well. Adjusting gameplay to this extent is beyond what Creative Assembly can accomplish with their current heavy handed approach to setting parameter values.

[Orda Khan]

Barbarian Invasion will be upon us soon enough, let's wait and see what happens as I think any attempts to 'balance' gameplay will meet with the usual apathy

.........Orda