Would there be sufficient demand for a balance fix mod?

[The_Mark]

Ah yes, forgot about those maces (as I do in battles also). Still the praetorians are just as deadly (even more deadly) against other opponents.

It's good to hear that it's being done, I'm occasionally getting pissed off in MP because of the lack of balance.

Ja on aina mukavaa nähdä maanmiehiä.

[Crandaeolon]

I think maybe no point. People seem not to play Mods online and maybe expansion pack will put fixes to MP.

Opinion noted, and it's quite true to boot. Most probably won't bother with any modifications, unless they're somehow "officially" sanctioned and very easy to install. The XP is "only" about five months away, and it would probably take a few months still to develop a finely balanced mod as a community effort.

Sounds to me that a quick fix right NOW would be preferable to most players. Nothing surprising there... but the X-pack is indeed looming in the not-so-distant future.

Ah yes, forgot about those maces (as I do in battles also). Still the praetorians are just as deadly (even more deadly) against other opponents.

Try not to forget 'em in the future... they make all the difference. Even Praetorians get +2 to attack (but no AP) if you use the alt-click to make them switch to their swords in melee.

Praetorians are easily among the best cav units in the game, and the problem is compounded because Rome also has the best infantry in the game... and cheap long-range archers.

Ja on aina mukavaa nähdä maanmiehiä.

No niinpäs on. Pelaillaan joskus erä tai muutama, jos satutaan törmäämään linjoilla. Mun online-nimi on paljolti sama, mutta [FF] -etuliitteellä.

[NihilisticCow]

I think that one of the advantages to making some kind of balance fix mod would be that we don't in fact know what changes CA will be making to multiplayer game balance in the expansion - they could in fact just think that it's good enough and concentrate on the single player.

If there is a community supported balance fix, this could well end up being adopted by CA, providing there is sufficient support - as this would minimise any work they need to do. So basically I think that working on a balance mod would be a good thing - it would provide a fix to those of us who want it, and quite possibly influence CA for the expansion.

[Swoosh So]

Im so in favour of a balance mod and yet im against it, the main problem i see is the mod would use the same units as 1.2 this will never be accepted across the wider comunity as they are mostly lay peeps, remember the celti mod in vi? was a good mod but used same units as vi. id like to see a mod with new factions/units with a good balance that way people wouldent confuse units with 1.2 and could maintain a compeditive level in 1.2.

Bit on the other hand its about time the community got off its arse and all inputted to a blance mod and helped promote it. after all whats the big deal installing a mod and just playing the thing if its better than 1.2!!

I think a well crafted mod could suceed but always people make errors as they are only human, ie the new spqr mod 3.0 again the elite archers have 1 more missle stat than foot archers sigh* so for chosen archer u pay about 700 denarii for a little extra range? not even sure if they have that much extra range in spqr 3.0.

also be careful with the phalanx kanuni can use phalanx armies to great effect now and ive seen them getting more and more used in 1.2 usually phalanx with valour 1 upgrade, i guess if just changing cav bonuses should be fineor if taking off the secondary weapon to force spear fight may be a good idea with a reduction in cost perhaps for the elite phalanx units since they cant use sword if u do that.

The main problem is cav spam untill thats fixed the game will always have a major flaw :\

why not reduce the speed crand? part of the problem with cav is not having time to micro spears to counter a cav manuever, i still think 80% speed is fine or perhaps 85%. i pesonally would also raise all the small unit sizes of gladiators berzerkers generals and stuff will make them like new units on the battlefield and will give the mod some easily gained spice. of course stats and costs of those units would have to change also.

I really believe a speed drop would be ok, i see players say the speed is fine as it is but i also see these players struggle to cope with controlling 20 units, sometimes people just speak without thought.

also a lower speed would help u mend the current move and control bugs ie fixing it when it occurs like some units running ahead of intended ghost formation or the cav unit that gets stuck in a loose archer unit despite several clicks to get it out :\

heh just some chaotic thoughts.......

[Lord Adherbal]

id like to see a mod with new factions/units with a good balance that way people wouldent confuse units with 1.2 and could maintain a compeditive level in 1.2.

that's what ChivalryTW is - or tries to be. It's based on the medieval period which should be equally popular as the Greco-Roman time, and still evolves around the same tactics.

We've lowered overall unit speed by 15% and made more different undividual speeds (4 cavalry speeds, 3 infantry speeds). Cavalry now feels more like the ones from MTW by decreasing their mass and formation density. The priority of the mod is to bring back MTW's MP tactics in combination with the more flexible units and strategies of RTW (MTW feels very static now, even for light cavalry and infantry).

Did you try the last beta ? The MP activity of the first days after release has died out already, but we still have a small fanbase and I think the mod has a chance once we've released a campaignmap version so the people who prefer SP will download it too resulting in more potential multiplayers.

[Crandaeolon]

heh just some chaotic thoughts.......

Good stuff, keep it coming!

the main problem i see is the mod would use the same units as 1.2 this will never be accepted across the wider comunity as they are mostly lay peeps

Unless I remember horribly wrong, a CA person (or someone connected to CA?) said at one of the forums that it may be possible for CA to adopt a community-made balance mod for RTW, just like they did in Shog. That would, of course, fix the community acceptance problem...

... but the mod would really have to be "minimal", i.e. not too far from the original game. Preferably just cost adjustments, or minor stat modifications.

I think a well crafted mod could suceed but always people make errors as they are only human

Yep. There's also the problem that everyone has their pet peeves about the game, and many modders would like to include something that others don't agree with. Several modders, working together, would theoretically make less errors than one lone modder, but a collective modding effort is also much slower because of the occasional disagreements.

also be careful with the phalanx kanuni can use phalanx armies to great effect now and ive seen them getting more and more used in 1.2 usually phalanx with valour 1 upgrade, i guess if just changing cav bonuses should be fineor if taking off the secondary weapon to force spear fight may be a good idea with a reduction in cost perhaps for the elite phalanx units since they cant use sword if u do that.

With some microing, it's possible to "force" the phalanxes to use their primary weapons for a few seconds even if their formation is disrupted by the enemy (just use phalanx toggle or the "stop" command.) I bet Kanuni knows that. If he didn't, I just gave out a war secret. Bugger that.

I wouldn't touch phalanxes too much... like I've been saying all along, they're effective units if used correctly. They could use a small improvement vs. cav, though. BTW, I know you wolfies like to play with normal size... but have you tried hosting with the "Medieval" size? 60 men for basic inf, 40 for cav, 90 for large inf?

Some Celtiberos are already playing at that size, I think. It would make a good "standard" size IMO, it feels less flimsy than normal and can be played in 4vs4 games.

why not reduce the speed crand?

Skirmishing is one thing. In vanilla it's quite possible to charge & rout archers if the opponent is slow in reacting. OTOH, you _can_ block these raids, but it needs some focusing. It's the age-old issue of balancing the advantages of attacking and defending. With 85% speed, it's maybe a bit too easy to react to skirmishing.

Killrate is another. If units are slowed down, the killrate needs to be slowed down too, or the net result is that you won't be able to move your units to where they are needed as fast as before.

Fatigue is yet another. Marching & running still consumes the same amount of fatigue even though you don't get from place to place as fast as before. Unit fatigue would need to be rebalanced.

i see players say the speed is fine as it is but i also see these players struggle to cope with controlling 20 units

This is a very good point. Yup, it can be pretty hard to control 20 units with the fast speeds of RTW, and reducing speeds would help that. But... do we really want it? I'm sure that there are players who can adequately control all those 20 units with the current speeds, and reducing the speed would make those players lose some of the benefit that they get for rapid reactions.

Fast reactions & good controlling are skills just like tactical thinking, so should there be less reward for reactions & unit control? Duelists probably wouldn't like that, but teamplayers would.

i pesonally would also raise all the small unit sizes of gladiators berzerkers generals and stuff will make them like new units on the battlefield

That's another pretty good point. I once tried upping special unit size by 33% and was pretty happy with the results. Dunno if that would get accepted by CA, though...

We've lowered overall unit speed by 15% and made more different undividual speeds (4 cavalry speeds, 3 infantry speeds).

How'd you edit the individual speeds, Adherbal? Skeleton / animations modding?

[Lord Adherbal]

How'd you edit the individual speeds, Adherbal? Skeleton / animations modding?

yes, it requires you to edit the animations/skeletons.

[Puzz3D]

Yup, it can be pretty hard to control 20 units with the fast speeds of RTW, and reducing speeds would help that. But... do we really want it? I'm sure that there are players who can adequately control all those 20 units with the current speeds, and reducing the speed would make those players lose some of the benefit that they get for rapid reactions.

The gamespeed should be such that most players can control all 20 units. Players who react quicker would still have an advantage, but they would also have to have solid tactical thinking. There has been a huge shift away from tactical thinking toward fast reactions in RTW. If you are in the majority of players who cannot control all 20 units at the current speeds, you might as well not play.