Romans/Etruscans/Samnites instead of Brutii/Julii/Scipii

[Kull]

The idea first came to me while doing some brainstorming in the EB forum. Here's a quick sketch of what I'd like to do, and how anyone interested can help:

The Problem: The basic premise of RTW is that three Roman families build their own separate territorial holdings over a period of generations, and then at some point fight a Civil War until one faction becomes the leader of all Rome. Of course - as most of you know - this "tri-partite Rome" has ZERO basis in historical fact. Several mods have addressed this by utilizing the "Unified Rome" concept (usually consisting of a single faction and the Senate). However, according to khelvan of the EB team, the result is "bugs" and/or "nuisances".

The Goal: Now some people enjoy the CA approach, and so did I for a while, but it would be nice to come up with a "unified Rome" concept that didn't generate a whole new set of problems.

The Concept: There are probably several ways to skin this cat, but the one I'd like to test involves replacing the Julii/Brutii/Scipii with Romans/Etruscans/Samnites. To quote from my EB posting; "The game begins with the "Civil War" already under way, except it's not really that. The Senate has outlawed the Etruscans and Samnites, meaning that Rome begins the game at war with both. The struggle for Italy consumed Rome's early history, and now we can simulate that AND do away with the artificial "three factions" constraint. This also offers players the option of selecting a "Roman" faction (i.e. Etruscan or Samnite) that is fundamentally different from the existing "me-too" factions. A little spice is nice, plus it fulfills the dreams of those "what-iffers" who wonder what a non-Roman Ancient Italy would have looked like.

The Challenge: The fundamental question is this - can the game be modded such that it starts with the Civil War already in process, and if not can we make adjustments to Senate/People popularity such that it will inevitably ensue shortly after the game begins?

Help! And that's where the vast experience of the modding community comes into play. Has anyone out there ever attempted something like this? If not, do you have any suggestions as to which files "control" the Civil War, and how they might be modified? The only one I've been able to find is "descr_senate.txt", and the Civil War triggers (such as they are) look pretty esoteric. So before I start beating my head against that wall, any and all suggestions would be appreciated!

[Colt45]

I have 2 points for consideration. The 1st is the descr_strat file for the campaign. At the bottom, you can modify the initial diplomatic stances of faction vs. faction.

I found a shortcut to civil war among Romans by setting up a failed assassination attempt against another Roman faction. I was outlawed. I could do this as soon as I got an assassin, which can be pretty early, or even 1st year if modded so.

[Kull]

I have 2 points for consideration. The 1st is the descr_strat file for the campaign. At the bottom, you can modify the initial diplomatic stances of faction vs. faction.

Excellent idea. Here were the changes I made prior to playing a test game:

faction_relationships romans_julii, at_war_with romans_senate, romans_brutii, romans_scipii
faction_relationships romans_scipii, at_war_with romans_senate, romans_brutii, romans_julii
faction_relationships romans_brutii, allied_to romans_senate
faction_relationships romans_brutii, at_war_with romans_julii, romans_scipii
faction_relationships romans_senate, allied_to romans_brutii
faction_relationships romans_senate, at_war_with romans_julii, romans_scipii

The result was that playing as the Brutii, I opened the game at war with the Julii and Scipii - and remained allied with the Senate - at least for a while. I had an early attack on the Julii navy, which the game accepted, although there were no outlaw messages. I messed around building infrastructure and taking on some Greek missions to get cash, and finally attacked Capua in 258BC. In 260, the Scipii tried to lift the siege and failed, whereupon I finally assaulted and captured the city. This resulted in a bunch of oulaw messages. The Senate outlawed the Scipii twice and me once, all in the same set of turn-ending messages - meaning that for some reason I'm now at war with the Senate, too! So it looks like this approach has some promise, but there are issues that need to be studied further.

I found a shortcut to civil war among Romans by setting up a failed assassination attempt against another Roman faction. I was outlawed. I could do this as soon as I got an assassin, which can be pretty early, or even 1st year if modded so.

Not sure how to mod this in at the start...maybe you could run some tests? The goal would be 1st turn outlaw messages against the other two factions (representing Etruscans/Samnites).

[Kull]

Could it be as simple as this?

Idea: Set up your mod so that Senate-controlled Rome has no units, and place a "Roman" army next to Rome. On the first turn, move in and conquer the city, thereby starting a war with the Etruscans and Samnites, and removing the Senate from the game.

Issue: If the AI controls the "Unified Rome" faction, they probably won't attack the Senate on turn#1, no matter how weak they are.

[Monkwarrior]

Could it be as simple as this?

Idea: Set up your mod so that Senate-controlled Rome has no units, and place a "Roman" army next to Rome. On the first turn, move in and conquer the city, thereby starting a war with the Etruscans and Samnites, and removing the Senate from the game.

Issue: If the AI controls the "Unified Rome" faction, they probably won't attack the Senate on turn#1, no matter how weak they are.

I have tested an "empty" senate faction. Only the faction leader is needed. If you want the senate to disappear thus place this one unit (general bodyguards) out of Rome city and place a "roman" army near there. In the first turn you have the message telling that the senate has been eliminated and this general is now a rebel general. The first movement of the nearby roman army (AI controlled) is to attack this rebel mini-army.
I haven't tested this strategy with the three roman factions (only Julii is present) but it could be work. Finally you should put the Julii at war with the other two from the beginning and in this way the first task of the romans will be to unify Italy.
If this explanation is not clear enough I can post some screenshots.
Cheers.

[Stuie]

Why not just get rid of the Senate altogether? See here:

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=44580

Then you can make the three "family" factions into whatever you want, and start them out at war with each other.

[Kull]

I have tested an "empty" senate faction. Only the faction leader is needed. If you want the senate to disappear thus place this one unit (general bodyguards) out of Rome city and place a "roman" army near there. In the first turn you have the message telling that the senate has been eliminated and this general is now a rebel general. The first movement of the nearby roman army (AI controlled) is to attack this rebel mini-army.
I haven't tested this strategy with the three roman factions (only Julii is present) but it could be work. Finally you should put the Julii at war with the other two from the beginning and in this way the first task of the romans will be to unify Italy.
If this explanation is not clear enough I can post some screenshots.
Cheers.

Please do post some sceenshots - also, what files did you have to modify (if any), and what were the changes? (I'd like to test this with all factions present.)

[Simetrical]

However, according to khelvan of the EB team, the result is "bugs" and/or "nuisances".

It used to, yes, but we've eliminated all of those. They all stemmed from incomplete removal of the two factions. You can boot up any version from 5.0 on and see for yourself.

-Simetrical

[Kull]

It used to, yes, but we've eliminated all of those. They all stemmed from incomplete removal of the two factions. You can boot up any version from 5.0 on and see for yourself.

-Simetrical

Thanks for the clarification - I'm going to download the latest version of RTR and will check that out. After perusing some of the RTR threads, it sounds as if you guys are using Scenario #2 in V.5, but plan on going to Scenario #1 in v.6. Could you share some thoughts on why - and whether you considered other options?

[Kull]

The Challenge: The fundamental question is this - can the game be modded such that it starts with the Civil War already in process, and if not can we make adjustments to Senate/People popularity such that it will inevitably ensue shortly after the game begins?

First of all my thanks to Colt45, Monkwarrior, and Stuie, each of whom identified methods by which the Civil War can, indeed, be initiated right at the start of the game! Additional insights are always welcome, but at least now we know it's possible. Plenty of testing is still necessary in order to determine how reliable these methods are, but there seem to be several possible variants to the original Romans/Etruscans/Samnites concept:

1) Senate Eliminated on first turn

2) One Roman faction plus Senate (in Rome)

3) One Roman faction (in Rome) plus Senate (hidden elsewhere on map)

Scenario #1 (aka the "Bouie Method" - the originator of the thread to which Stuie provided a link) seems less complicated than the others, plus it's alleged that this allows the other two "Roman factions" to be designated as something else entirely (i.e. two fully moddable factions). The primary "minus" is the elimination of an entire feature of the game - interactions with the Senate. Keep in mind that early Rome was a Republic, and dealing with the Senate partially simulates this to some extent. Scenarios #2 & #3 retain the Senate, but there's likely to be a great deal of additional complexity in getting this to work in a smooth and consistent fashion (consider my earlier test of Colt45's idea - essentaily Scenario #2 - in which the Brutii wound up outlawed despite being Allied to the Senate!)

Anyway, I'd like to hear your thoughts on these options - and/or others!