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Thread: A Shogun Puzzle with the Uesugi

  1. #1
    Toh-GAH-koo-reh Member Togakure's Avatar
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    Default A Shogun Puzzle with the Uesugi

    Ok here's the scenario: You are Uesugi Tomooki and it's the classic Sengoku Jidai campaign (1530 Sengoku Jidai, Warlord Edition, v1.02, Expert Difficulty, Unit Size 60, Morale On, Limited Ammo On, Restricted Camera On). You have set the following goals for yourself in the first stages of your bid to conquer Japan:

    By the summer of 1534 (4 years, 16 turns; before you click to proceed on to Autumn 1534):

    - Control all of your starting provinces except Hida (total control, not under siege)
    - Conquer all of the original Hojo lands and eliminate them
    - Have at least a small castle in every province you control
    - Maintain a garrison in every province you control, of at least one unit (60 men)
    - Have at least one spy in every province
    - Achieve Rank 4 with either Uesugi Tomooki or Uesgui Tomosada

    For our entertainment and admiration, post the following information at scenario end (or just post whatever, but the following would be really cool):

    - A screenshot of the area (see mine; host you can your pic at www.photobucket.com)
    - Total troops, broken down by unit type (excluding Daimyo and his hatamoto)
    - Total strategic agents (Emissaries, Shinobi, Ninja)
    - Total infrastructure assets (castles and buildings, agricutural improvements, mines, ports)
    - Your tax level and profits listed in your Finances display at scenario end (include the quality of the harvest - Poor, Average, Good, etc.), and the lowest level of loyalty in a province at this tax level, at scenario end

    If you want you can just cut and paste my info below and edit as needed. Have fun!

    ***

    Here's how I did:

    TOTAL TROOPS: 1990 (+10 hatamoto and 1 Daimyo; Grand Total: 2001)
    - Samurai Archers: 910
    - Yari Samurai: 631
    - Yari Ashigaru: 449

    STRATEGIC AGENTS
    - Emissaries: 1
    - Shinobi: 11

    TOTAL ASSETS:
    - Small Castles: 11
    - Spear Dojos: 3
    - Archery Dojos: 2
    - Tranquil Gardens: 1
    - Border Watchtowers: 1
    - Tea Houses: 1
    - Improved Farmland 20%: 1
    - Mines: 1

    Tax level: Punitive
    Profits Last Season: 3320 koku, Average Harvest
    Lowest Loyalty Level for a Province: 125%

    Be intent on loyalty
    While others aspire to perform meritorious services
    Concentrate on purity of intent
    While those around you are beset by egoism


    misc kanryodo

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    Weird Organism Senior Member Drisos's Avatar
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    Talking Re: A Shogun Puzzle with the Uesugi

    Seems pretty hard to me!

    ***extually, i mean i feel pretty worthless, i played only one expert campaign yet and don't think i would solve it! ***

    Once that **** computer of mine starts acting normal again i think i will give it a shot.

    - Chu - Gi - Makoto - Rei - Jin - Yu - Meiyo -

  3. #3
    Weird Organism Senior Member Drisos's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Shogun Puzzle with the Uesugi

    Looked back in sword dojo and immediately found a great thread.

    STW is working again and I think I am going to do this one.
    - Chu - Gi - Makoto - Rei - Jin - Yu - Meiyo -

  4. #4

    Default Re: A Shogun Puzzle with the Uesugi

    I'll give it a try. Did the first season.

    Speed is imperitive and Hojo is the objective. However the Imagawa are always desirous of Shinano province. There fore I moved the army from Hida into Shinano along with Uesugi Tomosada. The army from Shinano invaded Kozuke leaving, Uesugi Tomooki invaded Shimotsuke and there were Ashigaru garrisons left in Sado and Echigo. Small castles are being built in Echigo and Dewa, and two Samurai archers are being trained in Mutsu.

    First battle. Defense of Shinano. 2 samurai archers and 1 Yari sam vs 3 samurai archers and 3 yari sam. Shouldn't be too hard and it wasn't except I bungled it a bit (rusty).

    Starting Position. At the back so the enemy has to march. They take the long way over the hills and attack from my left. Funny because that's how I always attack it. They mess it up though and don't make a wide enough loop. Weather is light rain, bad for archers.




    I let them march straight for my position and moved my archer taisho way off to left and shot from there. The archer on the hill in center got lots of kills, archer taisho only 10 or so. Wasted most of his arrows, but it had the desired effect, the enemy sent two ys after my taisho and I retreated him to the high ground. I charged the other archer unit into the rear of these 2 ys units. The 3rd ys unit ran after my archer unit and got hit in the flank by my ys unit. Even with the flank and the height advantage it is a close battle between the 2 units because of the +2 honor advantage. I sent the archer unit too late and my taisho is at 1/3 strength by the time he gets there, the ys rout quickly though.


    I send my men over to chase off the archers, targetting the taisho. The archers are on skirmish and show no will to fight.



    The enemy general flees.



    Victory. Not a terrible result, but I lost far too many men in my taisho unit.



    2nd battle. Boy did I mess this one up. Kozuke, 1 ys 1 sa vs 1ys 1sa. This shot shows my archers outshooting the enemies.



    They lose the shootout and attack my position.



    Meet there charge with my ys and flank with the archers. The archers don't engage until the fight is almost over, they just stand there and shuffle there feet despite repeated orders. Grrrr.



    Ouch.



    3rd battle. Daimyo, ys, sa vs ys and sa. Easy. Here I am marching out to the flank of my opponent.



    I draw out their archers with my daimyo but don't get my archers into position in time to shoot. I was distracted by a fly buzzing around if you must know.



    I lure out the ys next time. Don't even try to flank with archers after last battle. They don't engage from head on either. Daimyo routs general from behind.



    Didn't kill as many as I wanted, the archer unit escaped mostly unscathed.



    2 provinces out of 7 taken. Prospects are good so far, revolts are worrisome however.

    Last edited by Sasaki Kojiro; 05-18-2005 at 20:22.

  5. #5
    Toh-GAH-koo-reh Member Togakure's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Shogun Puzzle with the Uesugi

    Mwuahahahaha ... now I have the secret weapon!!

    *starts collecting flies for next MP battle with Sasaki ...*
    Be intent on loyalty
    While others aspire to perform meritorious services
    Concentrate on purity of intent
    While those around you are beset by egoism


    misc kanryodo

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    Weird Organism Senior Member Drisos's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Shogun Puzzle with the Uesugi

    Good luck in that battle, toga!

    Thanks for the reports Sasaki, I'll try to report on my attempt too.

    Don't know if it'll work out, but if not, I'll just continue with the campaign and crush all enemies a little later.
    - Chu - Gi - Makoto - Rei - Jin - Yu - Meiyo -

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    Weird Organism Senior Member Drisos's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Shogun Puzzle with the Uesugi

    Not much time, so a short report of my progress so far:

    played 3 years. (not much time left )
    small castles in shinano, echicho, dewa, mutsu, sado, kozuke, shimotsuke, hitachi and shimosa.
    shinobi's in all region I need to qonquer to complete the puzzle
    Killed Imagawa daimyo, Hojo has totomi and mikawa. Takeda has suruga, his original regions and musashi.
    Lost hida to rebels, in war with Oda, defeated him very hard in shinano.
    I forgot the last hojo regions name! he has a castle there, and a very small army.

    Things are going quite well, it's an intresting campaign so far.
    I beat up the AI very, VERY hard often, but also lost 2 battles. I needed to reconquer shinano and kozuke once, after losing against Imagawa and hojo. I've won sometimes with 0 losses and over 100 kills. I've grown in SP a lot since playing MP too.

    I hope to finish the puzzle next week, it's a nice one toga!
    - Chu - Gi - Makoto - Rei - Jin - Yu - Meiyo -

  8. #8
    Clan Takiyama Senior Member R'as al Ghul's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Shogun Puzzle with the Uesugi


    I failed. It was close, though. Ah, well, not really.

    Here's how I did:

    TOTAL TROOPS: 900 (+10 hatamoto and 1 Daimyo; Grand Total: 911)
    - Samurai Archers: 348
    - Yari Samurai: 427
    - Yari Ashigaru: 125

    STRATEGIC AGENTS
    - Emissaries: 0
    - Shinobi: 0

    TOTAL ASSETS:
    - Small Castles: 11
    - Spear Dojos: 2
    - Archery Dojos: 2
    - Tranquil Gardens: 1
    - Border Watchtowers: 11
    - Tea Houses: 2
    - Improved Farmland 20%: 4
    -Improved Farmland 40%: 2
    - Mines: 3

    Musashi was attacked by Takeda in Summer '34 and my forces there are being sieged. Kazusa Castle is home to some lonely Imagawa Ashis. So no complete control here either. I also failed with the agents. Notice the diffeence in troop count. Toga has twice as much.


    The first two years went very well but I need to build more troops and I underestimated the "endgame", the last 4 turns. Hojo kept avoiding me and prolonged the campaign. My forces were spread thin and Takeda took the opportunity after allying with me.
    Nice riddle.

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  9. #9
    Weird Organism Senior Member Drisos's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Shogun Puzzle with the Uesugi

    Takeda was my ally too, until he attacked me in musashi.

    I just can't wait to play on and kick his a*s there.
    - Chu - Gi - Makoto - Rei - Jin - Yu - Meiyo -

  10. #10
    Toh-GAH-koo-reh Member Togakure's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Shogun Puzzle with the Uesugi

    In my example, Musashi was the next to last province I took before the deadline. It was there that I applied the coup de grace to El Hojo. He dos tend to skip around a lot if you let him, so the order in which I take his provinces is intended to force him from place to place, driving him like a sheep.

    My strategy for this particular scenario is a bit unusual, in that I immediately abandon Hida and Shinano. I pull troops from West to East in the first turn, to Mutsu. I even pull the ashigaru in the far north down, as I need it to maintain loyalty in recently conquered provinces and still be able to keept the pressure on. There is little risk of aggression from the Rebels during the first 5 years, and they prevent clans from taking the Sado way into the back of the Uesugi empire.

    I produce a Yari Samurai in Mutsu on the first turn to balance my little army (resulting in 2 archers, 2 yari sams an ashigaru, and my daimyo available for attack on Turn Two, having pulled the troops from Echigo to Mutsu, from Shinano to Echigo, and from Hida to Shinano, etc.). My first objective is Shimosa, to destroy the Hojo's ability to produce troops (for a few turns anyway--a few vital turns). On Turn Two I attack Hitachi, which Hojo usually abandons without a fight. Mr. Black Teeth (Imagawa) attacks Shinano, so I withdraw to Echigo without a fight. On Turn Three I drop taxes to minimum, leave the ashigaru in Hitachi as garrison, and attack the Hojo capital of Shimosa.

    After taking Shimosa I usually wait a turn or two to allow for province loyalty to rise, and for my new troop and agent producing provinces to come online. I will sometimes feint attacks on Hojo to keep him on his toes and prevent him from getting any aggressive ideas of his own. He's busy building a new place to train troops at this point, and doesn't usually have enough troops to launch an effective attack from where he is (Shimotsuke or Kozuke). Once my Spear Dojo in Echigo is ready, I start cranking out a Ysam there and an Archer in Mutsu every turn if possible (and a spy from my Tea House in Dewa each turn, also). If I am lucky, I have inherited a dojo in Shimosa. If not, I rebuild there as well.

    I take Kazusa after Shimosa, to assure that I do not get stabbed in the back as I press North. It is important to have ashigaru garrison troops and spies ready, as Kazusa tends to be more rebellious than the other provinces. I then take Shimotsuke, and then Kozuke, feinting against Musashi with my troops in Shimosa if necessary, to prevent Hojo from reinforcing Kozuke or Shimotsuke when I attack. Once this is accomplished I have three armies pointed at Musashi--from Shimosa, Shimotsuke and Kozuke, and at least 120 troops being trained each season. A decent garrison is required in Kozuke to prevent the forces occupying Shinano (usually Imagawa) from invading. If things go well, they have already spread themselves out by attacking the rebels in Etchu, and only a modest garrison is required. A small garrison will suffice in Echigo, as the river provides excellent defensive terrain.

    Once Musashi is taken, my last objective in this scenario is to take back Shinano--hopefully better developed now thanks to investments made by whatever faction took it from me (usually Imagawa). My strategic flanks are nicely protected by river provinces (Musashi and Echigo) so I don't need to keep big garrisons in either (but a bit more in Musashi than in Echigo, to discourage any bright ideas ont the part of the Takeda). Taking Shinano usually splits the Imagawa Empire, and threatens Totomi , Mikawa and Suruga simultaneously--freaking them out and usually putting a stop to their fast (and often rash) expansion. If I'm lucky, they break themselves trying to take back Shinano after I take it back from them.

    After the final objective in this scenario is accomplished, I send troops up to Sado, sealing up my only strategic weakness. I will often hit and run Totomi to destroy the port and Imagawa's primary troop training facilities. Then I turn my attention on the Takeda, doing what I can to drive them from central Japan before the maturation of Takeda Shingen.

    I use spies, not watch towers, to increase loyalty in provinces (they are portable, enabling me to move them where they are needed, have the same effect as a Border Fort, and cost 100 koku). I only build a watchtower early on if I need to see into enemy provinces (Mutsu is a good place in the first turn as it allows me to see into Hitachi, Shimotsuke and Kozuke). I keep taxes at minimum except during the Fall season, when I will raise them as high as I can without running the risk of rebellion. I focus on troop and spy production capability, and avoid improving farmlands--relying on newly conquered lands to yield the koku needed. I use balanced Archer/Ysam armies, and use ashis as garrision when ever possible (but I do use archers and ysams if I must; I try never to have more that 25% of my frontline armies be ashigaru).
    Be intent on loyalty
    While others aspire to perform meritorious services
    Concentrate on purity of intent
    While those around you are beset by egoism


    misc kanryodo

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    Weird Organism Senior Member Drisos's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Shogun Puzzle with the Uesugi

    Thanks for the great Uesugi campaign tactiks, toga. I can tell you're very experienced in playing the Uesugi.

    My first STW campaign was Uesugi at normal, I thought. I pretty easily conquered the hojo lands but after a longer time. Takeda was my ally until I had all the northern-rebel regions and the Imagawa regions.

    Being attacked from all sides (with yari sam!) the takeda were crushed and my victory was actually sure already.

    I had the entire east and was far the richest clan, and because I took the time to improve technology in stead of only attacking the first years, I had the best and biggest armies too.
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    Clan Takiyama Senior Member R'as al Ghul's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Shogun Puzzle with the Uesugi

    Thanks for the briefing Toga.
    I'll try it again with more troop production.
    Actually I might have forgotten to order new troops
    because I'm used to 1 season (like in VI) instead of 4 per year.

    Anyway, the battles were educating in a way.
    With the +2 bonus the AI is really confident at times.
    One bridge attack turned into a bridge defense when
    Hojo as a defender quickly came over to my side even before I could
    position myself at the bridge. His superior numbers overwhelmed me in the
    end, but he had lots of casualties.
    But the 1vs1 matchups were annoying. Even with height advantage and
    simultaneous rear attack those AI YariSams are tough to beat.

    I claim that without SamArchers it is impossible to win the early battles.

    R'as

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    Weird Organism Senior Member Drisos's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Shogun Puzzle with the Uesugi

    Darn it! I lost!

    hehe, I was only one turn too late. (and did not have castle in Musashi yet) But I had everything else done, spies, tomooki and tomodasa 4star every region 60 men.


    Had a fun time playing Will try again soon!
    - Chu - Gi - Makoto - Rei - Jin - Yu - Meiyo -

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    Weird Organism Senior Member Drisos's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Shogun Puzzle with the Uesugi

    These are the results, I made it this time.

    *****

    Battles:

    Uesugi Tomooki: 9 wins, 0 losses. ****
    Uesugi Tomodasa: 7 wins, 0 losses. ***

    I lost 0 battles in the campaign so far.

    Diplomatics:

    I killed three daimyo's: Takeda, Imagawa and Hojo. The Hojo clan is still alive, his heir took over control and they have the former Imagawa regions.

    I am in an alliance with the Oda, and in war with the Hojo.

    The following clans are gone: Imagawa and Takeda.

    Agents:

    Emissaries: 1
    Shinobi's: 11

    Economics:

    Taxes: 125%
    Koku: 1496
    Profit per year at this moment: 2900 Koku

    Buildings:

    11 small castles
    2 archer dojo's
    2 yari dojo's
    2 tea houses
    1 tranquil garden
    1 +20% improved farmland

    Troops:

    Yari Ashigaru: 355
    Hamamoto + Daimyo: 11
    Yari sam: 309
    Sam archers: 765

    Total: 1440

    Situation:



    *****

    I had lots of fun playing again, also got a good practice on battles. Thanks for the challenge Toga, and good luck to others who try it.
    Last edited by Drisos; 05-27-2005 at 12:09. Reason: wrong img link
    - Chu - Gi - Makoto - Rei - Jin - Yu - Meiyo -

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    Weird Organism Senior Member Drisos's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Shogun Puzzle with the Uesugi

    Quote Originally Posted by R'as al Ghul
    I'll try it again with more troop production.
    And? How did it go? You finished it?
    - Chu - Gi - Makoto - Rei - Jin - Yu - Meiyo -

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    Member Member Bash's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Shogun Puzzle with the Uesugi

    Quote Originally Posted by TogakureOjonin
    In my example, Musashi was the next to last province I took before the deadline. It was there that I applied the coup de grace to El Hojo. He dos tend to skip around a lot if you let him, so the order in which I take his provinces is intended to force him from place to place, driving him like a sheep.

    My strategy for this particular scenario is a bit unusual, in that I immediately abandon Hida and Shinano. I pull troops from West to East in the first turn, to Mutsu. I even pull the ashigaru in the far north down, as I need it to maintain loyalty in recently conquered provinces and still be able to keept the pressure on. There is little risk of aggression from the Rebels during the first 5 years, and they prevent clans from taking the Sado way into the back of the Uesugi empire.

    I produce a Yari Samurai in Mutsu on the first turn to balance my little army (resulting in 2 archers, 2 yari sams an ashigaru, and my daimyo available for attack on Turn Two, having pulled the troops from Echigo to Mutsu, from Shinano to Echigo, and from Hida to Shinano, etc.). My first objective is Shimosa, to destroy the Hojo's ability to produce troops (for a few turns anyway--a few vital turns). On Turn Two I attack Hitachi, which Hojo usually abandons without a fight. Mr. Black Teeth (Imagawa) attacks Shinano, so I withdraw to Echigo without a fight. On Turn Three I drop taxes to minimum, leave the ashigaru in Hitachi as garrison, and attack the Hojo capital of Shimosa.

    After taking Shimosa I usually wait a turn or two to allow for province loyalty to rise, and for my new troop and agent producing provinces to come online. I will sometimes feint attacks on Hojo to keep him on his toes and prevent him from getting any aggressive ideas of his own. He's busy building a new place to train troops at this point, and doesn't usually have enough troops to launch an effective attack from where he is (Shimotsuke or Kozuke). Once my Spear Dojo in Echigo is ready, I start cranking out a Ysam there and an Archer in Mutsu every turn if possible (and a spy from my Tea House in Dewa each turn, also). If I am lucky, I have inherited a dojo in Shimosa. If not, I rebuild there as well.

    I take Kazusa after Shimosa, to assure that I do not get stabbed in the back as I press North. It is important to have ashigaru garrison troops and spies ready, as Kazusa tends to be more rebellious than the other provinces. I then take Shimotsuke, and then Kozuke, feinting against Musashi with my troops in Shimosa if necessary, to prevent Hojo from reinforcing Kozuke or Shimotsuke when I attack. Once this is accomplished I have three armies pointed at Musashi--from Shimosa, Shimotsuke and Kozuke, and at least 120 troops being trained each season. A decent garrison is required in Kozuke to prevent the forces occupying Shinano (usually Imagawa) from invading. If things go well, they have already spread themselves out by attacking the rebels in Etchu, and only a modest garrison is required. A small garrison will suffice in Echigo, as the river provides excellent defensive terrain.

    Once Musashi is taken, my last objective in this scenario is to take back Shinano--hopefully better developed now thanks to investments made by whatever faction took it from me (usually Imagawa). My strategic flanks are nicely protected by river provinces (Musashi and Echigo) so I don't need to keep big garrisons in either (but a bit more in Musashi than in Echigo, to discourage any bright ideas ont the part of the Takeda). Taking Shinano usually splits the Imagawa Empire, and threatens Totomi , Mikawa and Suruga simultaneously--freaking them out and usually putting a stop to their fast (and often rash) expansion. If I'm lucky, they break themselves trying to take back Shinano after I take it back from them.

    After the final objective in this scenario is accomplished, I send troops up to Sado, sealing up my only strategic weakness. I will often hit and run Totomi to destroy the port and Imagawa's primary troop training facilities. Then I turn my attention on the Takeda, doing what I can to drive them from central Japan before the maturation of Takeda Shingen.

    I use spies, not watch towers, to increase loyalty in provinces (they are portable, enabling me to move them where they are needed, have the same effect as a Border Fort, and cost 100 koku). I only build a watchtower early on if I need to see into enemy provinces (Mutsu is a good place in the first turn as it allows me to see into Hitachi, Shimotsuke and Kozuke). I keep taxes at minimum except during the Fall season, when I will raise them as high as I can without running the risk of rebellion. I focus on troop and spy production capability, and avoid improving farmlands--relying on newly conquered lands to yield the koku needed. I use balanced Archer/Ysam armies, and use ashis as garrision when ever possible (but I do use archers and ysams if I must; I try never to have more that 25% of my frontline armies be ashigaru).
    Excuse me for bothering anyone by this rather long-forgotten tread, but I'd like to make some "improvements"/clarifications on this method.

    Couple of years ago I tried to find "the perfect way" to win Classic Shogun for ALL Factions. Well, results were quite satisfactory, then game was DONE, put on shelves and (a bit) forgotten, but some sort of magic spell/ infatuations remains. Then all old saves remain as well.
    Recently I re-open this Forum (I wrote here couple of years ago), find out this tread and was quite happy to reopen my old "perfect" saves which I did on CD for "eternal rememberance".
    Well, described strategy is quite good, but can be improved - quite a lot, I'm afraid. Let's begin from the start.


    For example:
    Quote Originally Posted by TogakureOjonin
    My strategy for this particular scenario is a bit unusual, in that I immediately abandon Hida and Shinano. I pull troops from West to East in the first turn, to Mutsu.
    Main idea for any "Full Campaign" for ANY faction in Classic Shogun is -
    you must over-run all your opponents by your mighty man-power. Man-power is derived from your troop raising capability. Troop raising capability is entirely dependable from your economy might - it is quite bad idea to make 2 Spear Dojo while you haven't koku for Ashi producing in these Dojo (and YSam - as well).
    Well, it means you must churn out new unit in ANY season if you like to win, make new troop breeding centers and keep your troops as close-knitted as reasonable. Your second troop-raising center will be ready in 9 seasons (4 seasons for castle, 4 seasons for Spear/Archery Dojo + 1 season for troop raising), then you must brought in all your possible troops in one "battle fist" and try to crush all opponent breeding centers in INITIAL 9 SEASONS.

    Then idea of abandoning of Hida and Shinano is quite good, but it is wrong in word "immediately". Yep, from the start I abandoned these provinces as well, but then I found out quite interesting pattern -
    A) If in Autumn of 1530 you hold Hida province - Imagawa will attack your Shinano province by superior forces;
    B) If in Autumn of 1530 you don't hold Hida province (Rebels have it) - Imagawa will not attack you in this season.
    Then in Spring of 1530 you must withdraw Arch+Ashi from Shinano to Echigo, but from Hida you must take out only Arch and Sam must "hold the fort" for just one season.
    In Summer of 1530 you must withdraw Arch from Shinano to Echigo and YSam from Hida to Shinano. In 1/2 of all cases Rebels from Etchu take over Hida as result in this season, in 1/2 of cases they don't. If they don't - just reload the game - or Shinano will be ambushed by Imagawa in Autumn of 1530 - actually it's not important - in proper time you will rout away Imagawas from Shinano WITHOUT actual battle, but you will spend one excessive/unnecessary season for reaching Shogunate/Terminal Goal and it is far cry from "Perfect Victory".

    Quote Originally Posted by TogakureOjonin
    I even pull the ashigaru in the far north down, as I need it to maintain loyalty in recently conquered provinces and still be able to keept the pressure on. There is little risk of aggression from the Rebels during the first 5 years, and they prevent clans from taking the Sado way into the back of the Uesugi empire.
    Sado situation is very interesting - it has only two neighbors - your own backyard - Dewa and EMPTY Rebel province Noto. "EMPTY" means just simple thing - Rebel troops must fill in their own province of Noto (they never come into their own province at all in Classic Shogun - trust me) and THEN attack your Sado. It means you've got 2 seasons for repelling this sort of attack and it is effectively equal to ETERNITY. You MUSTN'T have ANY unit in Sado in game start at all!
    But then - author made first actual mistake. By reading whole document we will find out - he created his first Castle in Echigo province. It is wrong.

    Echigo province is Silver Mine and NO-Iron province.
    Then first building here must be Mine - not Castle. Yep, if you fighting for Musashi or such provinces in Summer of 1532 - Sado YSam will come to battlefield in two turns slower then YSam created in Echigo. But sad truth is - Musashi MUST be taken in Spring of 1531 - not later. Your first produced YSam from Sado must take over Noto and then help to take over Etchu - immediately - not travel to South through long Dewa corridor.

    Quote Originally Posted by TogakureOjonin
    I produce a Yari Samurai in Mutsu on the first turn to balance my little army
    Slightly off-cue again. You've got initially 1000 koku. You must create Second Breeding Hatchery as fast as possible, then your spending of 500 koku onto Sado Castle is mandatory. You've got only 500 koku for your spending on army.
    Arch cost 225, YSam - 200, Ashi - 100. Your goal is to have your balance sheet as close to 0 as possible, then Arch creation is wrong idea.
    You can reach 0 balance in case of 1 Ashi and 2 YSam creation. Then big question is - if their producing queue would influe your performance.
    In "Perfect Campaign" you will get "Decisive Battle" in... Summer of 1531, then in whole 1530 year - it isn't difference - who must be produced YSam or Ashi - battle-wise, but from economical perspective - annual troop spending is result of Summer counting and Ashi is 1/2 cheaper then YSam in maintenance. It means your queue must be Spring - Ashi, Summer - YSam, Autumn - YSam, - not any other way around.

    More then that - you must change you taxes to 75% immediately and raise it in every Autumn to 125%. Population loyalty in ANY province will raise in 3 seasons then drop in 1 season, but you coffers will be filled by 125% of koku - anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by TogakureOjonin
    My first objective is Shimosa, to destroy the Hojo's ability to produce troops (for a few turns anyway--a few vital turns). On Turn Two I attack Hitachi, which Hojo usually abandons without a fight.
    Yep. Hojo always abandons Hitachi if your "Horde" is big enough.

    Quote Originally Posted by TogakureOjonin
    Mr. Black Teeth (Imagawa) attacks Shinano, so I withdraw to Echigo without a fight.
    As I stated previously - if in Summer (not in Spring!) of 1530 Hida was taken by Rebels, Imagawa NEVER attacks Shinano in Autumn of 1530.
    I'm not sure if Imagawa will attack later, because in Autumn of 1530 I used to drop my Emissary onto his head and Imagawa ALWAYS make Alliance with Mighty Uesugi.
    One little warning - Your Emissary will travel in path: Spring: Mutsu->Kozuke; Summer:Kozuke->Shinano; Autumn: Shinano->alliance offer to Imagawa. Then in Summer Imagawa Ninja used to stalk him in Shinano and more often then not - used to kill him. Well. there isn't actual fighting in Summer of 1530 - Hojo used to abandon Hitachi and Rebel take over Hida without battle, then reloading process is quite simple - wink-wink.

    Quote Originally Posted by TogakureOjonin
    On Turn Three I drop taxes to minimum, leave the ashigaru in Hitachi as garrison, and attack the Hojo capital of Shimosa.
    Definitely wrong - you must raise up your taxes on turn three (Autumn of 1530) to "punitive" value - not vice-versa.

    Author missed some very important point here.
    Idea is - Hojo had 1000 koku in Spring of 1530 as well.
    Hojo has Castle discount and like to use it. It means Hojo will spend 375 koku onto Castle building somewhere. Then Hojo has only 625 koku for troop raising. It seems like it use to raise new unit by each season, but it is side-issue. Main idea is Hojo must spend:
    300 koku onto Arch;
    200 koku onto YSam;
    100 koku onto Ashi.
    It means Hojo can't produce 3 Arch units at all! More then that Hojo used to create more expensive unit in start of year and in end of year it brings on - low-end troops.
    In other words - in time of your assault onto Shimosa - whole garrison of wretched province would be 1 just-made Ashi + Ashi or YSam (I never meet Hojo Arch in this battle).

    Then Battle-tactic in this "plain killing" is simple. You brought in 2 Arch units to bridge and start to cross it by your Daymyo or any Yari unit. Enemy start to close distance, then you stop crossing init in mid-bridge while your archers mow down Hojo guys like German Panzer machine-guns mowed down Polish Cavalry in 1939.
    When you kill around 25-30% of enemies - push them by your Daymyo unit, Hojo Ashis start to flee away. Don't pursue them. If you kill them more then necessary - Shimosa Castle would feed remnants a bit more. (I never lost ANY lowly Ashi in this bloodbath battle.)

    From Winter of 1530 all described strategy is screwed up - I'm afraid - you mustn't wait in Shimosa at all. You must keep screening troops in this province as small as possible for encouraging Hojo to LIFT Shimosa siege. If you timing and assessment is good you will shot down a lot of Hojo guys in next season by DEFENDING Shimosa bridge, while taking over Shimotsuke and Kasuza WITHOUT actual battling.
    Ugh, if your Archers raised their honours a bit in previous Shimosa "machine-gun massacre" while ASSAULTING, just imagine their prowess in "machine-gunning" poor-defended enemy archers which will try to cross this bridge in opposite direction. It is real Bloodbath - indeed. (Strictly speaking - Hojo is simply gutted for good after this bridge massacre).

    It means in next season - Spring of 1531 you must take over Musashi from fleeing remnants of Hojo Archers with their General Honour of -1. Ehm... I'm proud to say - I used to fight this strange battle and still not lost ANY guy in battle for Musashi (Oh, I used to keep just Daymyo in each battle with all his 10 hatamoto's slain, but their are appearing from thin air or exhume from their graves immediately - then my Army total numbers remain intact.
    Battle tactic is simple again - straight on attack by Daymyo unit on decimated (in previous battle) enemy and they are used to lose their morale in case of my Daymyo ploughing through their battered archery ranks or give me time to cross bridge by YSam unit. As soon as first whole YSam unit cross the bridge - enemies used to run for cover. Let them.

    In Summer of 1531 Hojo hold only Kozuke province, then "Terminal Battle" starts. If your timing and assessment is good - you must lure Hojo to attack you in Mutsu province - for shooting them from Mutsu heights with impunity, while Hojo used to abandon Kozuke region. It is first battle, where your losses are unevitable, but if you place your Archers appropriately and YSam is ready to die for keeping your Archer ranks intact you can spend not more then 100 your guys in exchange for complete elimination of Hojo in SIXTH turn.
    Mind you - you are still keeping Shinano province... It means - your goal is done...
    (to be continued with actual screenshots and game data)

  17. #17
    Member Member pdoan8's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Shogun Puzzle with the Uesugi

    You guys made me want to play Shogun again.

    Luckily, I am about to have 2 weeks of vacation. Hopefully, I won't be too busy with family and friends.

  18. #18
    Weird Organism Senior Member Drisos's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Shogun Puzzle with the Uesugi

    Quote Originally Posted by Bash
    ...
    sorry for leaving out text, that would make this short post way too long..

    Welcome to the .org! and welcome to the sword dojo!

    you must have much experience in playing stw sp. that info is so ... detailed would be almost the word.

    however this kind of playing doesn't work for me, really. I really prefer doing something else every time and not playing the campaign 'perfect'. Myself I played another short uesugi campaign lately in which I held both hida and shinano, conquered all the hojo regions and killed hojo and imagawa in little more then 4 years. that went good enough to make me see it was pointless to contiue as I already knew I was going to win.

    thanks for the intresting post, and please try this challenge too.
    - Chu - Gi - Makoto - Rei - Jin - Yu - Meiyo -

  19. #19
    Member Member Bash's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Shogun Puzzle with the Uesugi

    Quote Originally Posted by drisos
    however this kind of playing doesn't work for me, really. I really prefer doing something else every time and not playing the campaign 'perfect'. Myself I played another short uesugi campaign lately in which I held both hida and shinano, conquered all the hojo regions and killed hojo and imagawa in little more then 4 years. that went good enough to make me see it was pointless to contiue as I already knew I was going to win.

    thanks for the intresting post, and please try this challenge too.
    According to name of this topic it was intended as "Puzzle" - it means you must achieve your goal in most refined/perfect way.
    According to Tora post with phrases like "Hojo NEVER make fight for Hitachi in second turn" or something like it - it means like he made a lot of attempts to reach his goal in most efficient way - yep, it means "doing something else every time" - by making different efforts, inevitable mistakes - then recognizing these mistakes for avoiding them for good.

    Strictly speaking - this puzzle has absolute inefficient conditions - like making castle in any province + spy in any province to 16 seasons from start. You must reach Yamashiro province border by this turn - eliminating Hojo, Takeda and Imagawa in process and beating in bloody pulp Oda as small bonus. You needn't majke Castle in any province at all!
    You must spend your money by building castles:
    1530 - Sado Castle
    1531 - Hitachi Castle (yeah, I know Shinano castle would be more efficient, but I liked to play my campaigns without reloading, then I've got an eternally Fear for losing Shinano to stray attack from my opps - then Hitachi Castle in this year is more - security-wise investment.)
    1532 - Shinano Castle (Hojo used to cease to exist in 1531 in ANY campaign and 1532 is usual date of death for Takeda, then you will hold formidable army with Uesugi heir in this province anyway, then you fear for losing this province non-expectedly must vanish.)
    1533 - it depends, but I used to grab Totomi castle in this year - anyway, then I used to stop Castle making for troops producing. Castles upgrades for Mine Complexes making is - another story. Come on - just realize some really simple idea - Mutsu (utility), Sado (YSam+Naginata), Hitachi (YSam+No-Dachi), Shinano (Cavalry) and Totomi (Archers) troop breeding incubators start to churn all necessary 5 dif units in ANY season - it is time to say "enough" for this madness.

    By the way - most fickle thing in "Expert" campaigning in Classic Shogun environment is harvest results in ANY Autumn season. Small advice - invest more in Mine/Mine Complexes and in Ports, then you will get more stable money input. I will repeat - Mines in Dewa (Gold) and Echigo (Silver) in Winter of 1530 is MANDATORY for Uesugi strategy - either you like to follow one path or another - no difference. You must get some insurance against possible 50% of harvest dropping in really unlucky years. (Then idea to raise troops in Echigo is REALLY grave mistake!).

    Quote Originally Posted by drisos
    thanks for the intresting post, and please try this challenge too
    What kind of challenge do you mean? I've already stated - I've got all necessary provinces in Autumn of 1531 and I've got 9 (NINE) seasons to create any buildings in ANY province in question as well as ability to produce any sort of troops after 4 season period in 2 different breeding centers. I've got alliances with Imagawa, Takedo and Oda and superior/mighty armies on Musashi/Shinano/Echigo line. In other words I can just "sleep out" next NINE seasons for meeting this puzzle requirements - in these conditions.

    If you've got some another challenge, - pls, explain it.

    Pls, understand quite simple idea - Classic Shogun environment encourages you to LURE enemy onto your defences, because your guys (Archers especially) would raise their honour faster and in more sure way in DEFENSIVE battles - not vice-versa.
    Try to be more Japan/Asiatic-minded guy while Shogun playing.
    Use enemy strength/power/arrogance for destabilising/tripping it. Don't crush him, - taunt your enemy, lure and invite him in non-favorable battle-fields. Ashigaru units is MOST important units in this game - they are dedicated "baits in booby-traps" here. It is main reason - why "running Ashigarus don't influe morale of Samurai Armies. Reason is - Ashigaru is intended by game designers to waive and run out under enemy pressure. Then they've got higher run speed - intentionally. But you must understand - Ashi high speed is designed for fast fleeing/routing, not for pursuing fleeing enemies. Do you see?

    It is THE GAME. It is MAGIC SPELL of Shogun. Shogun is closest thing to Go game in whole Total War sequence in its hidden Nature.
    Alas, absolute majority of players missed this Asiatic/cunning aspect of this game. Then next game - Medieval in sequence was quite similar to Shogun by appearance, but absolute different in game design. Medieval TW is very Europe-centric game designed for Western market/ Western customer - a lot of different units, complex technology trees and so on and so on.
    But if you seek any Crush, Kill and Destroy experience - try some more-"Western-flavoured" thing - like Doom or Quake.

    But if you like to get THE pleasure from Shogun try to be elusive, deceptive and treacherous (a bit) in Eastern-like way. Crush your enemy not in frontal assaults, but in tricky defensive battles. Don't attack - try to be attacked.

    It is THE KEY for Shogun understanding.

  20. #20
    Weird Organism Senior Member Drisos's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Shogun Puzzle with the Uesugi

    Quote Originally Posted by Bash
    According to name of this topic it was intended as "Puzzle" - it means you must achieve your goal in most refined/perfect way.
    I don't agree - IMO to complete a puzzle you must achieve your goal, as I did. Why do it in all perfection? I love playing shogun (also SP), and have no problem at all winning against the AI. If I can win, while not doing it so perfect, what's the problem?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bash
    You must reach Yamashiro province border by this turn.
    Why? when I reach musashi border by this turn and complete my campaign 20 years later then I would when getting to yamashiro so soon, what's wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bash
    If you've got some another challenge, - pls, explain it.
    No. Sorry I missed out the things you said about your own results of the puzzle.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bash
    Try to be more Japan/Asiatic-minded guy while Shogun playing.
    ...
    Do you see?
    EDIT: This meant to me? Howt do you know my style of playing?

    But if you seek any Crush, Kill and Destroy experience - try some more-"Western-flavoured" thing - like Doom or Quake.
    I totally dislike games like that, so I'll keep it with shogun only as always.

    I appriciate your info are willingness to share all this info on shogun SP - But try to be more - what is the word for this - careful, in what you say. Check your first post, and see what you said to Togakure. I see some things that are rather rude, while I happen to think that he would defeat you in an MP battle.
    Last edited by Drisos; 07-22-2005 at 13:49.
    - Chu - Gi - Makoto - Rei - Jin - Yu - Meiyo -

  21. #21
    Member Member Bash's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Shogun Puzzle with the Uesugi

    Quote Originally Posted by drisos
    - But try to be more - what is the word for this - careful, in what you say. Check your first post, and see what you said to Togakure. I see somethings that are rather rude, while I happen to think that he would defeat you in an MP battle.
    Sure thing. Sure thing, indeed. He would. But...

    You are missing some point now.

    Togakure presented this problem for ANY guy around with quite definite message - "Try to best me in stated conditions".
    Then - when a lot of guys tried and failed/reached goal, he presented his "solution" of created by HIM problem.
    Alas, his "solution" is quite non-satisfactory - I'm afraid, - like idea to drop taxes in Autumn to 75% or making Castle in Echigo.
    Right answers is - drop taxes immediately, then in Autumn of 1530 when you will raise tax-level to 125% you will get 130% of Loyalty in freshly taken Hitachi - trust me (yep it will drop in next season to 93% in worst case scenario + you will get some Ashi Rebels if you'll get disatrous year with -50% of harvest, but total ecomical result will be better then in case of dropping to 75% of taxvalue.
    Right answer is - Echigo hasn't Iron and you MUST spend as much koku on Silver Mine as possible - at once - for protecting yourself from bad harvesting.
    He proposed to give Hojo a chance to reshape its army, but big idea is - if you repel opponent forces from some province - they will get out in chancy manner. Then immediate attack on Shimotsuke after getting Shimosa will DIVIDE and break apart Hojo ranks immediately. Then you will be able to crush them one-by one - not whole batch in Musashi bridge battle - like in Toga situation.

    Then your reasoning is like reasoning of Nazi generals in Summer of 1941. "We crushed Soviet might completely - it isn't difference if we kill them immediately or - in next year". Do you see?
    Do you remember Great Nrthern War - Swedish King wiped out whole Russian army in 1700 completely and start to be busy with some different ideas. Then whole Swedish Army was completely wiped out after 8 years. Do you see?
    Moral is - don't give your enemy any chance to stabilize. Press him. Stalk him. Don't wait something - like - while local loyalty would improved.

    Let's pretend - you don't see any difference in "conquering whole Japan" immediately or in 20 years later. Let's imagine - some European power would help your opponents in these 20 years time period, but refuse to yield to you any Guns.
    Let's imagine - Spirits of Ancient become to be quite angry on you for your absolute indifference to fulfil their wish - present Shogun to ravaged country as fast as possible - then any battle against your opponents (with European Guns in possession) occur under fine/dry condition and more then that - you never receive "Legendary Swordsman event" for your indifference.

    Are you still sure if speed of your winning isn't important? It is wrong way of thinking for intended Shogun, and big disrespect for "Kami"s and your country. Your goal is - stop Civil War by any means and ANY unnecessary spent season must be grave burden on your conscience.

    Your last post means - you are playing this game as power-seeker of some sort like some sort of adventurer, but it is wrong approach. Your conquest for Shogunate is tool for stopping War and National Disaster - not your own Ego-boosting request.

    While you will not see any difference in speed for completing your Eternal Request for Shogunate, - you missed whole idea of Shogun game completely.

    Quote Originally Posted by drisos
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Bash
    Try to be more Japan/Asiatic-minded guy while Shogun playing.
    ...
    Do you see?



    This meant to me? Think twice! What do you know about my style of playing? IMO nothing!
    Excuse me for repeating - you are missing idea of some sentences.
    I don't know anything about of your style of playing. And I didn't make any assumptions about your "style of playing". But...

    I know your way of thinking. It shows itself in your any post - I'm afraid. Then I advised you "to think like japan daymyo" while Shogun playing - not to play in "Asiatic manner".

    Excuse me for pointing you - you are fighting for Shogun title - not for throne of Emperor of whole Japan!
    You are not fighting for any equivalent of Western Crown, you are not trying to grab more lands or built more castles.
    You are fighting for - MAKING THINGS IN RIGHT MANNER, - no more, no less.

    You like to stop eternal war, pointless struggle and unnecessary suffering of innocent people. Yep, you are ready to do any steps for reaching this Terminal Request. You must mind about speed of your game. Any excessive day WILL multiply suffering of your own people. Then you MUST be speedy - in conscious/reasonable way.
    Then ANY idea like "it isn't difference - either I will win immediately, or in 20 years" - show just one thing - you are still not seeing situation in "japan daymyo" manner. Alas...

    Hmm... Quite interesting arguments do you have. Do you realize difference between STRATEGICAL Nature of Shogun Single Player Campaign, and absolute TACTICAL Nature of Shogun Multiplayer?

    I explained some quite simple STRATEGIC ideas - like build Castles for troop-raising in Iron provinces - not in Silver provinces; or Archers are more effective in defensive battles on bridges then while assaulting enemy through aforementioned bridges.
    Then you start to be touchy with next statement - "you are rude and some guy can beat you in a bloody pulp in TACTICAL battle".

    Quite interesting sort of argument do you have - like:
    Statement: "You've got wrong economy policy - your planned economy is direct way to disaster".
    Answer: "Mind your own business. If you will try to be rude our friend' tanks/panzers show you all your mistakes on battle-field!"


    No problem. I'm sure - prowess in leading panzer assault of your friend against some "free-economy minded community" can be non-comparable. But if he will insist to raise troops/Panzers in no-Iron/Silver province, then his STRATEGICAL decision would be rather... strange, I'm afraid.

  22. #22
    Weird Organism Senior Member Drisos's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Shogun Puzzle with the Uesugi

    Quote Originally Posted by Bash
    Togakure presented this problem for ANY guy around with quite definite message - "Try to best me in stated conditions".
    Wrong. Toga set up this puzzle to let others have some fun playing and practicing STW SP campaign.



    Quote Originally Posted by Bash
    Then your reasoning is like reasoning of Nazi generals in Summer of 1941.


    Do not compare me with Nazi generals!

    Quote Originally Posted by Bash
    "We crushed Soviet might completely - it isn't difference if we kill them immediately or - in next year". Do you see?
    I think I see - But I still don't agree, IMO is doesn't matter.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bash
    Let's imagine - some European power would help your opponents in these 20 years time period, but refuse to yield to you any Guns.
    Now we're entering my strategy, but I can tell you: I adjust myself to things that happen during the campaign. Maybe I couldn't have solved it in this situation, but you're not talking about STW anymore. The Portugese and Dutch come to all clans.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bash
    While you will not see any difference in speed for completing your Eternal Request for Shogunate.
    I do see a difference, and don't want it to take too long, but I enjoy playing STW and don't mind a campaign lasting longer then 5 years.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bash
    You missed the whole idea of Shogun game completely
    don't think so at all! how long would it take you to complete a campaign, 10 years? when do the dutch come to japan, 30 years? (not exactly but in any case later then 10 years I know) If the makers of shogun insisted me to be so soon in completing campaigns, why would they add those things anyway?

    I think you're more talking about real history, where I also would've tried to do it as fast as possible. But hey! this is just a video game! I like campaigns a bit longer and in games it's about fun isn't it? a longer campaign gives me more fun so I prefer to play them a bit slower. the idea behind any video game is fun, btw.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bash
    And I didn't make any assumptions about your style of playing.
    Not that I mind, but you did:

    Quote Originally Posted by Bash
    Try to be more Japan/Asiatic-minded guy while Shogun playing.
    So you thought I was not 'Japan/Asiatic-minded'.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bash
    Quite interesting arguments do you have.
    Don't get nasty.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bash
    Do you realize difference between STRATEGICAL Nature of Shogun Single Player Campaign, and absolute TACTICAL Nature of Shogun Multiplayer?
    Of course. I play both SP and MP.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bash
    Then you start to be touchy with next statement ...
    Wrong. I found your first post in some parts rude and was trying to get your respect for TogakureOJonin as he deserves it. It had nothing to do with you, while you self started with "Quite intresting arguments do you have"

    Quote Originally Posted by Bash
    "you are rude and some guy can beat you in a bloody pulp in TACTICAL battle".
    Please compare with:

    Quote Originally Posted by drisos
    Check your first post, and see what you said to Togakure. I see some things that are rather rude, while I happen to think that he would defeat you in an MP battle.
    It doesn't even come close! I would never say "you are rude and some guy can beat you in a bloody pulp in TACTICAL battle". Please quote correctly .

    Quote Originally Posted by Bash
    Quite interesting sort of argument do you have ...
    Don't get nasty.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bash
    Statement: "You've got wrong economy policy - your planned economy is direct way to disaster".
    To disaster? As I said, I complete campaigns at expert simply, what has that got to do with disaster? Maybe it is not as good as it could be, but it's good enough not to lead to disaster.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bash
    Answer: "Mind your own business.
    Did I say that? I just asked why it would be so important to win my campaign 10 years earlier. As I said: thanks for posting all that info on SP. Again, I did not say this, please quote correctly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bash
    If you will try to be rude our friend' tanks/panzers show you all your mistakes on battle-field!"
    Did I say that? I told you that I found your first post rude in some points, and tried to get your respect for him by telling you that he's better in the MP point. You might be better in SP, but he'd never be rude to you about that his MP skills are better. Once again, I did not say that. Please quote correctly.
    - Chu - Gi - Makoto - Rei - Jin - Yu - Meiyo -

  23. #23
    Member Member Bash's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Shogun Puzzle with the Uesugi

    Quote Originally Posted by drisos
    Did I say that? I told you that I found your first post rude in some points, and tried to get your respect for him by telling you that he's better in the MP point. You might be better in SP, but he'd never be rude to you about that his MP skills are better. Once again, I did not say that. Please quote correctly.
    Excuse me for pointing you into one subtle moment in this discussion.
    Once upon a time I quoted your phrase by this Forum method - and - bah! - this quote became to be "non-correct" immediately. (You can find it by comparing my "quoting" of your message in my answer and present condition of the same message - after your editing.)

    Excuse me for asking - what must be method in "quoting you correctly", if you are used to edit your posts - "after the fact"? Pls, check it yourself - you are constantly editing your own statements - here and there.
    Then "incorrect" quoting of your statements is inevitable, because I can't keep your messages in "intact condition", - I'm afraid. Excuse me for this inconvenience.
    Must I make immediate full-scale quoting of your whole messages for insurance - of keeping your messages in initial/intact condition?

    By the way - what is reason for your rather personal attack on my messages? Do you really ready to blame me for statement - whole idea is completely wrong from this and this moment, because you like to name my definition "completely wrong" as "rude"? Pls, check in my post a bit closer - if you are ready to say:
    ASSAULTING Hojo in Musashi province THROUGH Musashi BRIDGE is more STRATEGICALLY and TACTICALLY sound idea then STOPPING them FROM Mutsu commanding HEIGHTS in STRICT DEFENCE, then I'm ready to make some quite rude statement.
    But if you try to check Toga message you must realize - all his doings after Shimosa taking is methodical preparation for Musashi bridge storming.
    I'm ready to repeat it is absolutely non-necessary and rather time/koku/troops vasting idea. Yep, I'm trying to not being rude in this definition. Yep, if you realize full dimension of ... ehm... incongruency - wink-wink - in Musashi storming plan - you will realize whole Strategy from this season must be re-designed. What is rude in this statement?

    Let's say - German scientists in WWII times tried to create A-bomb from U-235 (it was quite time-resource consuming idea with inability to drop resulting mechanism due to its non-reasonable big dimensions for that period of technology development). American scientists devised more complex, but short Pu-239 path for A-bomb creation. Then - let's imagine some guy in 1943 tries to explain to Gahn (leader of German A-bomb project) - your way is good, but it is completely wrong, because some other - faster and more simple way exists.
    Then some guy around starts to cry: "you are making quite rude statement. We mustn't make our (German) A-bomb faster. End of 1946 year is quite good finish year for our project! It's fun to wage war around."
    OK. No problem. If Germany prefers to create its A-Bomb to October of 1946 (historical assumed finish time for Gahn project) - it is quite fine for me.
    I must remind to you - if Germany in 1943 would start to research Pu-239 path (in the same time as Leo Scillard group in USA) it would make her first nuclear tests (German equivalent of Manhattan project) in September of 1944 appx (due to German superiority in this technology field - they kept this superiority till end of WWII) with first actual A-bomb creation in start of German "Ardennes offensive" of 1945. Do you see all possible implications in this scenario - like nuclear mushrooms over Antwerp and Bastogne for example? Do you see?
    Oh... Never mind...

    P.S. Do you need actual screenshots + explanations/reasoning - why this unit must go in this province and not to that + saves for checking of "Perfect way" to deal with Hojo - or you are preferring to get as much fun from the game as possible?
    Yep, I know - receiving full spoiler is killing fun from the game in most sure manner, then I must make this question before posting all this stuff.

    If you like to receive as much fun as possible - my hinting about - Hojo musn't be attacked in Musashi, because it must be lured in Mutsu is enough - for your own thinking process ignition.
    Sure thing - finding your own "Perfect way" in killing Hojo troops in YOUR battle-ground (maybe not so-perfect, maybe not in ideal Mutsu mountrains - hint, - you can lure Hojo in Shimotsuke or in Kozuke as well - main idea is - you don't like to make Final Battle on Musashi bridge - period) is much more satisfactory then reading somebody else full-scale spoiler.
    Play the game, try any methods, catch/realize your own mistakes and replay your game again and again - it is your only way to Master this or any other game in existence.
    Oh, another small hint - take any spoiler ideas with grain of salt - try to understand what is said, but every time - try to make your own decision. Don't use somebody Wisdom, try to develop your own Judgement.

  24. #24
    Weird Organism Senior Member Drisos's Avatar
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    Default ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Bash
    Excuse me for pointing you into one subtle moment in this discussion.
    Thanks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bash
    Once upon a time I quoted your phrase by this Forum method - and - bah! - this quote became to be "non-correct" immediately. (You can find it by comparing my "quoting" of your message in my answer and present condition of the same message - after your editing.)
    Yes I noticed. Few minutes after I posted that I read it again, and thought it was rude too, so I edited it. Sadly you were already busy with a reply so you didn't notice and the quote got messed up. Sorry.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bash
    Excuse me for asking - what must be method in "quoting you correctly", if you are used to edit your posts - "after the fact"? Pls, check it yourself - you are constantly editing your own statements - here and there.
    Then "incorrect" quoting of your statements is inevitable, because I can't keep your messages in "intact condition", - I'm afraid. Excuse me for this inconvenience.
    Must I make immediate full-scale quoting of your whole messages for insurance - of keeping your messages in initial/intact condition?
    Please don't exaggorate it. This is my fourth post to you and of the threee earlier I only edited one. Just use the forum's way. I'll read it before I submit the post this time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bash
    By the way - what is reason for your rather personal attack on my messages? Do you really ready to blame me for statement - whole idea is completely wrong from this and this moment, because you like to name my definition "completely wrong" as "rude"?
    Here is what I thought was a bit rude:

    Quote Originally Posted by Bash
    Definitely wrong - you must raise up your taxes on turn three (Autumn of 1530) to "punitive" value - not vice-versa.

    Author missed some very important point here.

    Slightly off-cue again.

    Well, described strategy is quite good, but can be improved - quite a lot, I'm afraid. Let's begin from the start.
    OK. It's not that bad and I can understand that you feel that you've done nothing wrong. Only Togakure has lost his connection and cannot defend himself. And I see him as a friend, he's always nice respectful.

    Well giving tips is always good and it's nice of you, but about what I quoted above, I thought: he could've said that nicer. Maybe I'm exaggorating, never mind.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bash
    Let's say - German scientists in WWII times tried to create A-bomb from U-235 (it was quite time-resource consuming idea with inability to drop resulting mechanism due to its non-reasonable big dimensions for that period of technology development). American scientists devised more complex, but short Pu-239 path for A-bomb creation. Then - let's imagine some guy in 1943 tries to explain to Gahn (leader of German A-bomb project) - your way is good, but it is completely wrong, because some other - faster and more simple way exists.
    Then some guy around starts to cry: "you are making quite rude statement. We mustn't make our (German) A-bomb faster. End of 1946 year is quite good finish year for our project! It's fun to wage war around."
    OK. No problem. If Germany prefers to create its A-Bomb to October of 1946 (historical assumed finish time for Gahn project) - it is quite fine for me.
    I must remind to you - if Germany in 1943 would start to research Pu-239 path (in the same time as Leo Scillard group in USA) it would make her first nuclear tests (German equivalent of Manhattan project) in September of 1944 appx (due to German superiority in this technology field - they kept this superiority till end of WWII) with first actual A-bomb creation in start of German "Ardennes offensive" of 1945. Do you see all possible implications in this scenario - like nuclear mushrooms over Antwerp and Bastogne for example? Do you see?
    I already agreed with this. I am only saying I don't want to do things so perfect when playing a game, because my campaigns give me more pleasure if they take a bit longer and I can relax a bit.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bash
    Then some guy around starts to cry: "you are making a quite rude statement."
    You obviously mean me with this. First of all I did not start to cry and I don't like you saying so at all! Second, I only thought the way you said things was rude.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bash
    P.S. Do you need actual screenshots + explanations/reasoning - why this unit must go in this province and not to that + saves for checking of "Perfect way" to deal with Hojo - or you are preferring to get as much fun from the game as possible?
    Yep, I know - receiving full spoiler is killing fun from the game in most sure manner, then I must make this question before posting all this stuff.
    If you like to receive as much fun as possible - my hinting about - Hojo musn't be attacked in Musashi, because it must be lured in Mutsu is enough - for your own thinking process ignition.
    Sure thing - finding your own "Perfect way" in killing Hojo troops in YOUR battle-ground (maybe not so-perfect, maybe not in ideal Mutsu mountrains - hint, - you can lure Hojo in Shimotsuke or in Kozuke as well - main idea is - you don't like to make Final Battle on Musashi bridge - period) is much more satisfactory then reading somebody else full-scale spoiler.
    Play the game, try any methods, catch/realize your own mistakes and replay your game again and again - it is your only way to Master this or any other game in existence.
    Oh, another small hint - take any spoiler ideas with grain of salt - try to understand what is said, but every time - try to make your own decision. Don't use somebody Wisdom, try to develop your own Judgement.
    No I already believe you. I know you know the best way to play a campaign, and I think that is great. I only say I won't do it that perfect.

    *****

    Thought our first meeting wasn't that friendly, I'd like you to read my story about a campaign I played. Check in this forum for a 'Takeda Campaign' thread. You'll probably see much things I did wrong, but please don't critisize them, but try to help me with the future in it. The situation is fine, but I tried to play the next year once, and things went totally wrong, I got outnumbered in my most important region and was going to loose it probably.

    Oh, and please give us a short introduction of yourself in the 'HAIL New Members (introductions) II' thread, in the 'Entrance Hall' forum. Then we get to know you and you'll become a full member soon. (edit function etc )
    - Chu - Gi - Makoto - Rei - Jin - Yu - Meiyo -

  25. #25
    Toh-GAH-koo-reh Member Togakure's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Shogun Puzzle with the Uesugi

    My connection is not gone yet, soon though. Hmm, away for bit and come back, maybe for the last time in a long time, to find this. Interesting ... I don't think I will miss this place much, though I will miss some of the patrons (high-five's Drisos).

    Quote Originally Posted by Bash
    ...Togakure presented this problem for ANY guy around with quite definite message - "Try to best me in stated conditions".
    Then - when a lot of guys tried and failed/reached goal, he presented his "solution" of created by HIM problem. ...
    You make a big assumption here, and you are incorrect. I presented the puzzle to give SP players an opportunity to try and reach the stated goals in the stated time frames--for the fun of it. I used my game as an example. I waited to post my strategy because to have done so from the start would have taken the fun out of trying to meet the conditions.

    Your assumption does not surprise me however, given the fabulous ego that you display in your several posts here. While you state fairly efficient methods of approaching the opening of this campaign, efficiency is not the bottom line in strategic warfare. That's why accountants usually make poor generals. This method is one of many that I use in this scenario. The (small) castles in each province provide the opportunity for flexibility later in the campaign. Shinobi are portable internal security forces--the more you have the better, as they cost little to produce and nothing to upkeep. The castle in Echigo is closest to Shinano, and troops produced there have less far to travel to reach my front lines--efficiency in a different sense. The mine costs 500 koku, which I chose to spend on troops given the necessary timing involved in taking out the Hojo capital asap. My method is different, but I don't think it's inferior. Nor do I think yours is inferior, again, just different.

    Perhaps next time you comment, instead of putting your ideas forward like you did, try simply saying: I have a different approach to the opening in this scenario--here it is. As its stands, you have merely demonstrated your considerable ego and a seeming sense of insecurity, in that you seem to need to put the ideas of others down in order to make yours appear more grand. Tell me--why did you immediately assume that this thread was created to gratify my ego ... (wink-wink)?

    Think in a "asiatic" way? I was born in Zama, not far from Mount Fuji, and my mother was a native of Sapporo, living there until she met my father and moved, with me in tow, to California. The better half of me is Japanese.

    Playing MP well online has as much to do with understanding the controls and performance/behaviors of units at various honor and upgrade levels as it does having any tactical savvy, so whether or not I could beat you in an MP battle really has no bearing on who is a "better" tactician or strategist. But I concede, I'm sure you are much better, as this is only a game for me.

    Welcome to the Org ... .
    Be intent on loyalty
    While others aspire to perform meritorious services
    Concentrate on purity of intent
    While those around you are beset by egoism


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  26. #26
    Member Member Bash's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Shogun Puzzle with the Uesugi

    I've got some sort of historical fable.
    Once upon a time - around of 1832 - just after suppression of Polish Uprising in Russian Empire Czar/Russian Emperor Nicholas I asked his friends (members so named Inner Circle or Hidden Council) - why Russian losses in last campaign was so great?
    It occures in supper after good drinking and singing with air of definitely camaraderie between friends (all members of Hidden Council with notable exception of Czar himself were actual battle generals with a couple of wars behind) then there was a lot of answers - bitter and rude very often like it is usual between dedicated fighters while drinking procedure.
    According to communal rememberance - only one guy kept his silence. His name was - Count (highest military-derived PERSONAL noble title) Alexander von Benckendorff - Chief of Secret Police, Head of Third Depertment (Foreign and Domestic Hidden Affairs) and so on and so on - direct cousin of Emperor. He was considered as smartest guy in Hidden Council - by the way, but had a formidable military career - took part in Austerlitz - was commander in chief in Retreat after this battle, Preusish-Eulau - commander of battle security line; Friedland - commander of battle line again, Borodino - hold his position till end - as commander of Jager regiments in front of "Kurgan Battery" of Rayevsky, received Pour le Merite from Preusish Crown for command of Russian forces in Berlin operation in Feb of 1813 and so on and so on... This guy named as "Council member with maximal count of battle scars" - by the way.
    His silence in similar discussion usually means his disagreement with given question. When Emperor asked why Count don't like to answer, he said.
    "I'm silent, because my answer can hurt all our Council Members - good feelings. I'm silent - because my point of view differ from point of view of all other members of our Council.
    Please, see in depth of your hearts and answer - WHO is Hero from two commanders?
    Both of them is before one and the same problem: they've got 100 men and enemy - 200 men.
    First guy find out perfect position, attacked enemy and due to his great military skill destroyed enemies completely - losing in process 95 guys from 100. Is he - Hero, because he won 1 battle 100 vs 200?"
    All Council answered in unison: "Yes, he is - Hero."
    "Fine",- said Count of Benckendorff - "then second guy start to maneuver, divided enemy onto 10 regiments - 200 men in each and then he crushed them in 10 different battles losing only 5 men in process. Is he Hero, because he won 10 battles 100 vs 20?"
    In complete silence of audience only Czar answered very low: "No, he isn't Hero. He is... Accountant..."
    "Sure thing" - laughed Count Benckendorff - everybody in Russia is ready to say - "First guy is Hero, Second is - not. But both of them reached their goal anyway, but first butchered 95% of his men in process, when Second wasted only 5% of his precious guys. Then why do you ask about our big losses in last campaign? All our military teaching is about of reaching Victory by ANY cost, not about Winning wars. Then Russia used to lose more soldiers then opponents in ANY war in history. Russia lost more soldiers in whole serie of Napoleonic wars then all other European countries taken in sum!
    While you will continue to name Butchers as Heros, and Caring Generals as Accountants - you will get, what do you get!"
    Czar bitterly laughed and said - "You are right, Benckendorff, but you never will get any supporters of your opinion in our military".
    "I know" - answered Benckendorff, - "then I lost any interest in raising Russian troops/officers any more, I prefer to teach something - for young Baltic/Ostsean and Finnish officers - their minds are still unspoiled by common Russian military attitude".

    Well, it's end of story. It was quite well-known thing for Russian historians, but results of Finnish campaign of 1939-1940 was quite puzzling for Soviet officers - anyway.

    P.S. Excuse me for pointing you, but present condition of MP in Shogun is far cry for reality. You are continuing to name as "Hero" and "Best Tactician" - actual Butchers of their own army.
    But real war isn't equal to one "Final Battle" - it is used to be a long row of attrition meetings/engagements between two powers, isn't it?
    Any "Accountants" like Kutuzov or Barclay (and both of them were rather accountants in the battle-field) will lose all their battles against "Best Tactician" like Napoleon (and he was BEST tactician of his times - thumbs down), but Napoleonic wars will come to the same ending "Accountants" victory - anyway.

  27. #27
    Weird Organism Senior Member Drisos's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Shogun Puzzle with the Uesugi

    Quote Originally Posted by Bash
    But real war isn't equal to one "Final Battle" - it is used to be a long row of attrition meetings/engagements between two powers, isn't it?
    Any "Accountants" like Kutuzov or Barclay (and both of them were rather accountants in the battle-field) will lose all their battles against "Best Tactician" like Napoleon (and he was BEST tactician of his times - thumbs down), but Napoleonic wars will come to the same ending "Accountants" victory - anyway.
    I challenge you. Go to the 'STW MP' forum. Check the 'Want to play an MP campaign?' thread. Join it. Good luck.

    I consider myself Tactician. Too bad battles in the campaign are AI vs. AI. I wouldn't mind meeting you on the battlefield once.
    Last edited by Drisos; 07-23-2005 at 13:04.
    - Chu - Gi - Makoto - Rei - Jin - Yu - Meiyo -

  28. #28
    Member Member Bash's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Shogun Puzzle with the Uesugi

    Quote Originally Posted by drisos
    I challenge you. Go to the 'STW MP' forum. Check the 'Want to play an MP campaign?' thread. Join it. Good luck.

    I consider myself Tactician. Too bad battles in the campaign are AI vs. AI. I wouldn't mind meeting you on the battlefield once.
    Good idea... But I've got an impression - only weakest possible clan - like Imagawa - remains... And playing against Oda, Uesugi, Takeda AND Shimatsu in the same time is really scary thing... Not sure if I've got enough personal time for fighting onto 2 fronts simultaneously (amounts of my personal battles would raise pretty high....)
    More then that - what about 3-sides battles like - Hojo hold Musashi and it is attacked from both sides (from Uesugi/Imagawa Shinano and Takedo Kia - simultaneously). What side will be alone on their bank of river? Who will decide it? I'm sure it would means - this side will be victorious in result - won't it?
    What about "non-sporting" conduct - like Mori leader behavior in Sekigakhara battle? Is it allowed?
    If it is - will Imagawa receive less penalty for this behavior (in other case playing as "treacherous Imagawa" is pointless)? What is penalty for the same behavior from "honest" Takeda or "monklike" Uesugi factions?
    What about usual for Sengoku Jidai practice - backstab in midst of battle your ally and I will present you my bordering province for your ugly treason? Can I present you small amount of koku for your Ninja killing some important guy of third faction?
    Must all factions receive "legendary Swordsman" event in the same time? Must Portuguese apeear in closest to them Shimazu lands in the same time with their appearance in farthest to them Uesugi lands?
    I couldn't find answer on all these questions in pointed thread, then I must refuse till full clarification of procedure.

    In the same time - if Imagawa leader will be allowed for "treacherous behavior" without actual punishment for these exploits (like possibility to bribe somebody for treason amidst battlefield, with almost sure punishment for the same things from "honest" factions),

    or - for example - only Imagawa is allowed:
    - to pay for intelligence information about third-party troops distribution in interesting provinces;
    - to pay for assasination events on third-party guys;
    - to make amphibious assault - via enemy ports where Imagawa spy residue) -

    this clan leading would be - quite interesting task for me.

    Please, give me your clarification about these thing and will try to show you - why "Snake hiss is more scaring then Lion roar" according to well-known Eastern saying.

  29. #29
    Toh-GAH-koo-reh Member Togakure's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Shogun Puzzle with the Uesugi

    I enjoyed the story Bash, and I tend to agree with Benckendorff's position. It is for this very reason that I don't usually rush to victory when I play a campaign; I don't go slow, but I don't rush either. As Musashi said: timing is everything. I use strategic position, strength in numbers and quality of troops, and carefully timed and coordinated "flow," to prevent the enemy from incurring on my borders, advancing my lines in a manner that allows me to maintain border security while directing my opponents where I want them. I do my best to "win without fighting"; forcing the enemy to withdraw from a province rather than be drastically defeated in battle. I redirect enemy attention by conducting surgical strikes against key infrastructure provinces far behind his lines, and by creating discord and rebellion with shinobi in lightly garrisoned provinces recently taken by the enemy. I choose one ally who offers the most benefit in strategic strength and position, and I usually remain loyal with that ally until he betrays me or he is the last remaining daimyo to contest the title of Shogun. But I never leave the borders between us weak ... .

    It would be interesting to log a campaign and keep track of how many men are killed on the path to victory. My guess is, my casualties would be lower than the average player's--but that's just a guess.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bash
    P.S. Excuse me for pointing you, but present condition of MP in Shogun is far cry for reality. You are continuing to name as "Hero" and "Best Tactician" - actual Butchers of their own army.
    I don't understand what you mean by this ... whom have we named "hero" and "best tactician," who butchers his own army? I can't speak for other MP players, but unlike a lot of players who seem to take the most pride in number of kills, I am most pleased when the ratio of kills to losses is good. I was also most impressed by something put forward by an old Kenchikuka clan member (Baz, I believe), who said that they took the most pride in routing the enemy from the field quickly--minimizing losses on both sides while still achieving victory.

    What did you mean by this statement?

    EDIT: As far as the "One Final Victory" comment goes, you could always play a series of MP battles instead of just one. You could change maps, change game conditions, set limitations on units, try different stats--there is much you can do to spice up an MP challenge. Granted, MP is predominantly tactical in nature--unlike the campaign game. But wars are not usually won by sound strategy alone--perhaps ideally they would be, but war has never been that "convenient." Tactics play a crucial role in the execution of strategy--and in making up for strategic oversights when things don't go as planned.

    So are you going to take up Drisos' challenge, or wiggle around some more like a snake (wink-wink). All in good fun, mind you ... .
    Last edited by Togakure; 07-23-2005 at 20:41.
    Be intent on loyalty
    While others aspire to perform meritorious services
    Concentrate on purity of intent
    While those around you are beset by egoism


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  30. #30
    Member Member Bash's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Shogun Puzzle with the Uesugi

    Quote Originally Posted by TogakureOjonin
    So are you going to take up Drisos' challenge, or wiggle around some more like a snake (wink-wink). All in good fun, mind you ... .
    If you are checking pointed tread you can find answer on your question.

    Alas, they've got only lowly and poor Imagawa role - as it seems, then I posted my requests and conditions to fill in this - quite unwanted - position.
    If my intended Master - Lord Oda will promise his suzerain covering, if mighty Takeda would agree on my proposition - Mikawa, Totomi and Suruga is mine, Kai, Izu, Sagami, Musashi and Shinano are - his realms and he will spare my unworthy life - I will participitate in the fun.

    But first of all - Kami of Ancients must promise me their eternal wrath on breaker of our Eternal Agreements. Everybody can hurt old, feeble and wrinkled Imagawa - then all his hopes lies in hand of Eternal Heavens and Kami of Ancients.

    I will keep my promises - word of Rascal is more worth then word of some nobles, but if nobles will not give me their words in Ancient Shrine before Kami of Ancients - any things are futile.

    Do you see?

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