A Shogun Puzzle with the Uesugi

[Togakure]

In my example, Musashi was the next to last province I took before the deadline. It was there that I applied the coup de grace to El Hojo. He dos tend to skip around a lot if you let him, so the order in which I take his provinces is intended to force him from place to place, driving him like a sheep.

My strategy for this particular scenario is a bit unusual, in that I immediately abandon Hida and Shinano. I pull troops from West to East in the first turn, to Mutsu. I even pull the ashigaru in the far north down, as I need it to maintain loyalty in recently conquered provinces and still be able to keept the pressure on. There is little risk of aggression from the Rebels during the first 5 years, and they prevent clans from taking the Sado way into the back of the Uesugi empire.

I produce a Yari Samurai in Mutsu on the first turn to balance my little army (resulting in 2 archers, 2 yari sams an ashigaru, and my daimyo available for attack on Turn Two, having pulled the troops from Echigo to Mutsu, from Shinano to Echigo, and from Hida to Shinano, etc.). My first objective is Shimosa, to destroy the Hojo's ability to produce troops (for a few turns anyway--a few vital turns). On Turn Two I attack Hitachi, which Hojo usually abandons without a fight. Mr. Black Teeth (Imagawa) attacks Shinano, so I withdraw to Echigo without a fight. On Turn Three I drop taxes to minimum, leave the ashigaru in Hitachi as garrison, and attack the Hojo capital of Shimosa.

After taking Shimosa I usually wait a turn or two to allow for province loyalty to rise, and for my new troop and agent producing provinces to come online. I will sometimes feint attacks on Hojo to keep him on his toes and prevent him from getting any aggressive ideas of his own. He's busy building a new place to train troops at this point, and doesn't usually have enough troops to launch an effective attack from where he is (Shimotsuke or Kozuke). Once my Spear Dojo in Echigo is ready, I start cranking out a Ysam there and an Archer in Mutsu every turn if possible (and a spy from my Tea House in Dewa each turn, also). If I am lucky, I have inherited a dojo in Shimosa. If not, I rebuild there as well.

I take Kazusa after Shimosa, to assure that I do not get stabbed in the back as I press North. It is important to have ashigaru garrison troops and spies ready, as Kazusa tends to be more rebellious than the other provinces. I then take Shimotsuke, and then Kozuke, feinting against Musashi with my troops in Shimosa if necessary, to prevent Hojo from reinforcing Kozuke or Shimotsuke when I attack. Once this is accomplished I have three armies pointed at Musashi--from Shimosa, Shimotsuke and Kozuke, and at least 120 troops being trained each season. A decent garrison is required in Kozuke to prevent the forces occupying Shinano (usually Imagawa) from invading. If things go well, they have already spread themselves out by attacking the rebels in Etchu, and only a modest garrison is required. A small garrison will suffice in Echigo, as the river provides excellent defensive terrain.

Once Musashi is taken, my last objective in this scenario is to take back Shinano--hopefully better developed now thanks to investments made by whatever faction took it from me (usually Imagawa). My strategic flanks are nicely protected by river provinces (Musashi and Echigo) so I don't need to keep big garrisons in either (but a bit more in Musashi than in Echigo, to discourage any bright ideas ont the part of the Takeda). Taking Shinano usually splits the Imagawa Empire, and threatens Totomi , Mikawa and Suruga simultaneously--freaking them out and usually putting a stop to their fast (and often rash) expansion. If I'm lucky, they break themselves trying to take back Shinano after I take it back from them.

After the final objective in this scenario is accomplished, I send troops up to Sado, sealing up my only strategic weakness. I will often hit and run Totomi to destroy the port and Imagawa's primary troop training facilities. Then I turn my attention on the Takeda, doing what I can to drive them from central Japan before the maturation of Takeda Shingen.

I use spies, not watch towers, to increase loyalty in provinces (they are portable, enabling me to move them where they are needed, have the same effect as a Border Fort, and cost 100 koku). I only build a watchtower early on if I need to see into enemy provinces (Mutsu is a good place in the first turn as it allows me to see into Hitachi, Shimotsuke and Kozuke). I keep taxes at minimum except during the Fall season, when I will raise them as high as I can without running the risk of rebellion. I focus on troop and spy production capability, and avoid improving farmlands--relying on newly conquered lands to yield the koku needed. I use balanced Archer/Ysam armies, and use ashis as garrision when ever possible (but I do use archers and ysams if I must; I try never to have more that 25% of my frontline armies be ashigaru).

[Drisos]

Thanks for the great Uesugi campaign tactiks, toga. I can tell you're very experienced in playing the Uesugi.

My first STW campaign was Uesugi at normal, I thought. I pretty easily conquered the hojo lands but after a longer time. Takeda was my ally until I had all the northern-rebel regions and the Imagawa regions.

Being attacked from all sides (with yari sam!) the takeda were crushed and my victory was actually sure already.

I had the entire east and was far the richest clan, and because I took the time to improve technology in stead of only attacking the first years, I had the best and biggest armies too.

[R'as al Ghul]

Thanks for the briefing Toga.
I'll try it again with more troop production.
Actually I might have forgotten to order new troops
because I'm used to 1 season (like in VI) instead of 4 per year.

Anyway, the battles were educating in a way.
With the +2 bonus the AI is really confident at times.
One bridge attack turned into a bridge defense when
Hojo as a defender quickly came over to my side even before I could
position myself at the bridge. His superior numbers overwhelmed me in the
end, but he had lots of casualties.
But the 1vs1 matchups were annoying. Even with height advantage and
simultaneous rear attack those AI YariSams are tough to beat.

I claim that without SamArchers it is impossible to win the early battles.

R'as

[Drisos]

Darn it! I lost!

hehe, I was only one turn too late. (and did not have castle in Musashi yet) But I had everything else done, spies, tomooki and tomodasa 4star every region 60 men.


Had a fun time playing Will try again soon!

[Drisos]

These are the results, I made it this time.

*****

Battles:

Uesugi Tomooki: 9 wins, 0 losses. ****
Uesugi Tomodasa: 7 wins, 0 losses. ***

I lost 0 battles in the campaign so far.

Diplomatics:

I killed three daimyo's: Takeda, Imagawa and Hojo. The Hojo clan is still alive, his heir took over control and they have the former Imagawa regions.

I am in an alliance with the Oda, and in war with the Hojo.

The following clans are gone: Imagawa and Takeda.

Agents:

Emissaries: 1
Shinobi's: 11

Economics:

Taxes: 125%
Koku: 1496
Profit per year at this moment: 2900 Koku

Buildings:

11 small castles
2 archer dojo's
2 yari dojo's
2 tea houses
1 tranquil garden
1 +20% improved farmland

Troops:

Yari Ashigaru: 355
Hamamoto + Daimyo: 11
Yari sam: 309
Sam archers: 765

Total: 1440

Situation:



*****

I had lots of fun playing again, also got a good practice on battles. Thanks for the challenge Toga, and good luck to others who try it.

[Drisos]

I'll try it again with more troop production.

And? How did it go? You finished it?

[Bash]

In my example, Musashi was the next to last province I took before the deadline. It was there that I applied the coup de grace to El Hojo. He dos tend to skip around a lot if you let him, so the order in which I take his provinces is intended to force him from place to place, driving him like a sheep.

My strategy for this particular scenario is a bit unusual, in that I immediately abandon Hida and Shinano. I pull troops from West to East in the first turn, to Mutsu. I even pull the ashigaru in the far north down, as I need it to maintain loyalty in recently conquered provinces and still be able to keept the pressure on. There is little risk of aggression from the Rebels during the first 5 years, and they prevent clans from taking the Sado way into the back of the Uesugi empire.

I produce a Yari Samurai in Mutsu on the first turn to balance my little army (resulting in 2 archers, 2 yari sams an ashigaru, and my daimyo available for attack on Turn Two, having pulled the troops from Echigo to Mutsu, from Shinano to Echigo, and from Hida to Shinano, etc.). My first objective is Shimosa, to destroy the Hojo's ability to produce troops (for a few turns anyway--a few vital turns). On Turn Two I attack Hitachi, which Hojo usually abandons without a fight. Mr. Black Teeth (Imagawa) attacks Shinano, so I withdraw to Echigo without a fight. On Turn Three I drop taxes to minimum, leave the ashigaru in Hitachi as garrison, and attack the Hojo capital of Shimosa.

After taking Shimosa I usually wait a turn or two to allow for province loyalty to rise, and for my new troop and agent producing provinces to come online. I will sometimes feint attacks on Hojo to keep him on his toes and prevent him from getting any aggressive ideas of his own. He's busy building a new place to train troops at this point, and doesn't usually have enough troops to launch an effective attack from where he is (Shimotsuke or Kozuke). Once my Spear Dojo in Echigo is ready, I start cranking out a Ysam there and an Archer in Mutsu every turn if possible (and a spy from my Tea House in Dewa each turn, also). If I am lucky, I have inherited a dojo in Shimosa. If not, I rebuild there as well.

I take Kazusa after Shimosa, to assure that I do not get stabbed in the back as I press North. It is important to have ashigaru garrison troops and spies ready, as Kazusa tends to be more rebellious than the other provinces. I then take Shimotsuke, and then Kozuke, feinting against Musashi with my troops in Shimosa if necessary, to prevent Hojo from reinforcing Kozuke or Shimotsuke when I attack. Once this is accomplished I have three armies pointed at Musashi--from Shimosa, Shimotsuke and Kozuke, and at least 120 troops being trained each season. A decent garrison is required in Kozuke to prevent the forces occupying Shinano (usually Imagawa) from invading. If things go well, they have already spread themselves out by attacking the rebels in Etchu, and only a modest garrison is required. A small garrison will suffice in Echigo, as the river provides excellent defensive terrain.

Once Musashi is taken, my last objective in this scenario is to take back Shinano--hopefully better developed now thanks to investments made by whatever faction took it from me (usually Imagawa). My strategic flanks are nicely protected by river provinces (Musashi and Echigo) so I don't need to keep big garrisons in either (but a bit more in Musashi than in Echigo, to discourage any bright ideas ont the part of the Takeda). Taking Shinano usually splits the Imagawa Empire, and threatens Totomi , Mikawa and Suruga simultaneously--freaking them out and usually putting a stop to their fast (and often rash) expansion. If I'm lucky, they break themselves trying to take back Shinano after I take it back from them.

After the final objective in this scenario is accomplished, I send troops up to Sado, sealing up my only strategic weakness. I will often hit and run Totomi to destroy the port and Imagawa's primary troop training facilities. Then I turn my attention on the Takeda, doing what I can to drive them from central Japan before the maturation of Takeda Shingen.

I use spies, not watch towers, to increase loyalty in provinces (they are portable, enabling me to move them where they are needed, have the same effect as a Border Fort, and cost 100 koku). I only build a watchtower early on if I need to see into enemy provinces (Mutsu is a good place in the first turn as it allows me to see into Hitachi, Shimotsuke and Kozuke). I keep taxes at minimum except during the Fall season, when I will raise them as high as I can without running the risk of rebellion. I focus on troop and spy production capability, and avoid improving farmlands--relying on newly conquered lands to yield the koku needed. I use balanced Archer/Ysam armies, and use ashis as garrision when ever possible (but I do use archers and ysams if I must; I try never to have more that 25% of my frontline armies be ashigaru).

Excuse me for bothering anyone by this rather long-forgotten tread, but I'd like to make some "improvements"/clarifications on this method.

Couple of years ago I tried to find "the perfect way" to win Classic Shogun for ALL Factions. Well, results were quite satisfactory, then game was DONE, put on shelves and (a bit) forgotten, but some sort of magic spell/ infatuations remains. Then all old saves remain as well.
Recently I re-open this Forum (I wrote here couple of years ago), find out this tread and was quite happy to reopen my old "perfect" saves which I did on CD for "eternal rememberance".
Well, described strategy is quite good, but can be improved - quite a lot, I'm afraid. Let's begin from the start.


For example:

My strategy for this particular scenario is a bit unusual, in that I immediately abandon Hida and Shinano. I pull troops from West to East in the first turn, to Mutsu.

Main idea for any "Full Campaign" for ANY faction in Classic Shogun is -
you must over-run all your opponents by your mighty man-power. Man-power is derived from your troop raising capability. Troop raising capability is entirely dependable from your economy might - it is quite bad idea to make 2 Spear Dojo while you haven't koku for Ashi producing in these Dojo (and YSam - as well).
Well, it means you must churn out new unit in ANY season if you like to win, make new troop breeding centers and keep your troops as close-knitted as reasonable. Your second troop-raising center will be ready in 9 seasons (4 seasons for castle, 4 seasons for Spear/Archery Dojo + 1 season for troop raising), then you must brought in all your possible troops in one "battle fist" and try to crush all opponent breeding centers in INITIAL 9 SEASONS.

Then idea of abandoning of Hida and Shinano is quite good, but it is wrong in word "immediately". Yep, from the start I abandoned these provinces as well, but then I found out quite interesting pattern -
A) If in Autumn of 1530 you hold Hida province - Imagawa will attack your Shinano province by superior forces;
B) If in Autumn of 1530 you don't hold Hida province (Rebels have it) - Imagawa will not attack you in this season.
Then in Spring of 1530 you must withdraw Arch+Ashi from Shinano to Echigo, but from Hida you must take out only Arch and Sam must "hold the fort" for just one season.
In Summer of 1530 you must withdraw Arch from Shinano to Echigo and YSam from Hida to Shinano. In 1/2 of all cases Rebels from Etchu take over Hida as result in this season, in 1/2 of cases they don't. If they don't - just reload the game - or Shinano will be ambushed by Imagawa in Autumn of 1530 - actually it's not important - in proper time you will rout away Imagawas from Shinano WITHOUT actual battle, but you will spend one excessive/unnecessary season for reaching Shogunate/Terminal Goal and it is far cry from "Perfect Victory".

I even pull the ashigaru in the far north down, as I need it to maintain loyalty in recently conquered provinces and still be able to keept the pressure on. There is little risk of aggression from the Rebels during the first 5 years, and they prevent clans from taking the Sado way into the back of the Uesugi empire.

Sado situation is very interesting - it has only two neighbors - your own backyard - Dewa and EMPTY Rebel province Noto. "EMPTY" means just simple thing - Rebel troops must fill in their own province of Noto (they never come into their own province at all in Classic Shogun - trust me) and THEN attack your Sado. It means you've got 2 seasons for repelling this sort of attack and it is effectively equal to ETERNITY. You MUSTN'T have ANY unit in Sado in game start at all!
But then - author made first actual mistake. By reading whole document we will find out - he created his first Castle in Echigo province. It is wrong.

Echigo province is Silver Mine and NO-Iron province.
Then first building here must be Mine - not Castle. Yep, if you fighting for Musashi or such provinces in Summer of 1532 - Sado YSam will come to battlefield in two turns slower then YSam created in Echigo. But sad truth is - Musashi MUST be taken in Spring of 1531 - not later. Your first produced YSam from Sado must take over Noto and then help to take over Etchu - immediately - not travel to South through long Dewa corridor.

I produce a Yari Samurai in Mutsu on the first turn to balance my little army

Slightly off-cue again. You've got initially 1000 koku. You must create Second Breeding Hatchery as fast as possible, then your spending of 500 koku onto Sado Castle is mandatory. You've got only 500 koku for your spending on army.
Arch cost 225, YSam - 200, Ashi - 100. Your goal is to have your balance sheet as close to 0 as possible, then Arch creation is wrong idea.
You can reach 0 balance in case of 1 Ashi and 2 YSam creation. Then big question is - if their producing queue would influe your performance.
In "Perfect Campaign" you will get "Decisive Battle" in... Summer of 1531, then in whole 1530 year - it isn't difference - who must be produced YSam or Ashi - battle-wise, but from economical perspective - annual troop spending is result of Summer counting and Ashi is 1/2 cheaper then YSam in maintenance. It means your queue must be Spring - Ashi, Summer - YSam, Autumn - YSam, - not any other way around.

More then that - you must change you taxes to 75% immediately and raise it in every Autumn to 125%. Population loyalty in ANY province will raise in 3 seasons then drop in 1 season, but you coffers will be filled by 125% of koku - anyway.

My first objective is Shimosa, to destroy the Hojo's ability to produce troops (for a few turns anyway--a few vital turns). On Turn Two I attack Hitachi, which Hojo usually abandons without a fight.

Yep. Hojo always abandons Hitachi if your "Horde" is big enough.

Mr. Black Teeth (Imagawa) attacks Shinano, so I withdraw to Echigo without a fight.

As I stated previously - if in Summer (not in Spring!) of 1530 Hida was taken by Rebels, Imagawa NEVER attacks Shinano in Autumn of 1530.
I'm not sure if Imagawa will attack later, because in Autumn of 1530 I used to drop my Emissary onto his head and Imagawa ALWAYS make Alliance with Mighty Uesugi.
One little warning - Your Emissary will travel in path: Spring: Mutsu->Kozuke; Summer:Kozuke->Shinano; Autumn: Shinano->alliance offer to Imagawa. Then in Summer Imagawa Ninja used to stalk him in Shinano and more often then not - used to kill him. Well. there isn't actual fighting in Summer of 1530 - Hojo used to abandon Hitachi and Rebel take over Hida without battle, then reloading process is quite simple - wink-wink.

On Turn Three I drop taxes to minimum, leave the ashigaru in Hitachi as garrison, and attack the Hojo capital of Shimosa.

Definitely wrong - you must raise up your taxes on turn three (Autumn of 1530) to "punitive" value - not vice-versa.

Author missed some very important point here.
Idea is - Hojo had 1000 koku in Spring of 1530 as well.
Hojo has Castle discount and like to use it. It means Hojo will spend 375 koku onto Castle building somewhere. Then Hojo has only 625 koku for troop raising. It seems like it use to raise new unit by each season, but it is side-issue. Main idea is Hojo must spend:
300 koku onto Arch;
200 koku onto YSam;
100 koku onto Ashi.
It means Hojo can't produce 3 Arch units at all! More then that Hojo used to create more expensive unit in start of year and in end of year it brings on - low-end troops.
In other words - in time of your assault onto Shimosa - whole garrison of wretched province would be 1 just-made Ashi + Ashi or YSam (I never meet Hojo Arch in this battle).

Then Battle-tactic in this "plain killing" is simple. You brought in 2 Arch units to bridge and start to cross it by your Daymyo or any Yari unit. Enemy start to close distance, then you stop crossing init in mid-bridge while your archers mow down Hojo guys like German Panzer machine-guns mowed down Polish Cavalry in 1939.
When you kill around 25-30% of enemies - push them by your Daymyo unit, Hojo Ashis start to flee away. Don't pursue them. If you kill them more then necessary - Shimosa Castle would feed remnants a bit more. (I never lost ANY lowly Ashi in this bloodbath battle.)

From Winter of 1530 all described strategy is screwed up - I'm afraid - you mustn't wait in Shimosa at all. You must keep screening troops in this province as small as possible for encouraging Hojo to LIFT Shimosa siege. If you timing and assessment is good you will shot down a lot of Hojo guys in next season by DEFENDING Shimosa bridge, while taking over Shimotsuke and Kasuza WITHOUT actual battling.
Ugh, if your Archers raised their honours a bit in previous Shimosa "machine-gun massacre" while ASSAULTING, just imagine their prowess in "machine-gunning" poor-defended enemy archers which will try to cross this bridge in opposite direction. It is real Bloodbath - indeed. (Strictly speaking - Hojo is simply gutted for good after this bridge massacre).

It means in next season - Spring of 1531 you must take over Musashi from fleeing remnants of Hojo Archers with their General Honour of -1. Ehm... I'm proud to say - I used to fight this strange battle and still not lost ANY guy in battle for Musashi (Oh, I used to keep just Daymyo in each battle with all his 10 hatamoto's slain, but their are appearing from thin air or exhume from their graves immediately - then my Army total numbers remain intact.
Battle tactic is simple again - straight on attack by Daymyo unit on decimated (in previous battle) enemy and they are used to lose their morale in case of my Daymyo ploughing through their battered archery ranks or give me time to cross bridge by YSam unit. As soon as first whole YSam unit cross the bridge - enemies used to run for cover. Let them.

In Summer of 1531 Hojo hold only Kozuke province, then "Terminal Battle" starts. If your timing and assessment is good - you must lure Hojo to attack you in Mutsu province - for shooting them from Mutsu heights with impunity, while Hojo used to abandon Kozuke region. It is first battle, where your losses are unevitable, but if you place your Archers appropriately and YSam is ready to die for keeping your Archer ranks intact you can spend not more then 100 your guys in exchange for complete elimination of Hojo in SIXTH turn.
Mind you - you are still keeping Shinano province... It means - your goal is done...
(to be continued with actual screenshots and game data)

[pdoan8]

You guys made me want to play Shogun again.

Luckily, I am about to have 2 weeks of vacation. Hopefully, I won't be too busy with family and friends.

[Drisos]

...

sorry for leaving out text, that would make this short post way too long..

Welcome to the .org! and welcome to the sword dojo!

you must have much experience in playing stw sp. that info is so ... detailed would be almost the word.

however this kind of playing doesn't work for me, really. I really prefer doing something else every time and not playing the campaign 'perfect'. Myself I played another short uesugi campaign lately in which I held both hida and shinano, conquered all the hojo regions and killed hojo and imagawa in little more then 4 years. that went good enough to make me see it was pointless to contiue as I already knew I was going to win.

thanks for the intresting post, and please try this challenge too.

[Bash]

however this kind of playing doesn't work for me, really. I really prefer doing something else every time and not playing the campaign 'perfect'. Myself I played another short uesugi campaign lately in which I held both hida and shinano, conquered all the hojo regions and killed hojo and imagawa in little more then 4 years. that went good enough to make me see it was pointless to contiue as I already knew I was going to win.

thanks for the intresting post, and please try this challenge too.

According to name of this topic it was intended as "Puzzle" - it means you must achieve your goal in most refined/perfect way.
According to Tora post with phrases like "Hojo NEVER make fight for Hitachi in second turn" or something like it - it means like he made a lot of attempts to reach his goal in most efficient way - yep, it means "doing something else every time" - by making different efforts, inevitable mistakes - then recognizing these mistakes for avoiding them for good.

Strictly speaking - this puzzle has absolute inefficient conditions - like making castle in any province + spy in any province to 16 seasons from start. You must reach Yamashiro province border by this turn - eliminating Hojo, Takeda and Imagawa in process and beating in bloody pulp Oda as small bonus. You needn't majke Castle in any province at all!
You must spend your money by building castles:
1530 - Sado Castle
1531 - Hitachi Castle (yeah, I know Shinano castle would be more efficient, but I liked to play my campaigns without reloading, then I've got an eternally Fear for losing Shinano to stray attack from my opps - then Hitachi Castle in this year is more - security-wise investment.)
1532 - Shinano Castle (Hojo used to cease to exist in 1531 in ANY campaign and 1532 is usual date of death for Takeda, then you will hold formidable army with Uesugi heir in this province anyway, then you fear for losing this province non-expectedly must vanish.)
1533 - it depends, but I used to grab Totomi castle in this year - anyway, then I used to stop Castle making for troops producing. Castles upgrades for Mine Complexes making is - another story. Come on - just realize some really simple idea - Mutsu (utility), Sado (YSam+Naginata), Hitachi (YSam+No-Dachi), Shinano (Cavalry) and Totomi (Archers) troop breeding incubators start to churn all necessary 5 dif units in ANY season - it is time to say "enough" for this madness.

By the way - most fickle thing in "Expert" campaigning in Classic Shogun environment is harvest results in ANY Autumn season. Small advice - invest more in Mine/Mine Complexes and in Ports, then you will get more stable money input. I will repeat - Mines in Dewa (Gold) and Echigo (Silver) in Winter of 1530 is MANDATORY for Uesugi strategy - either you like to follow one path or another - no difference. You must get some insurance against possible 50% of harvest dropping in really unlucky years. (Then idea to raise troops in Echigo is REALLY grave mistake!).

thanks for the intresting post, and please try this challenge too

What kind of challenge do you mean? I've already stated - I've got all necessary provinces in Autumn of 1531 and I've got 9 (NINE) seasons to create any buildings in ANY province in question as well as ability to produce any sort of troops after 4 season period in 2 different breeding centers. I've got alliances with Imagawa, Takedo and Oda and superior/mighty armies on Musashi/Shinano/Echigo line. In other words I can just "sleep out" next NINE seasons for meeting this puzzle requirements - in these conditions.

If you've got some another challenge, - pls, explain it.

Pls, understand quite simple idea - Classic Shogun environment encourages you to LURE enemy onto your defences, because your guys (Archers especially) would raise their honour faster and in more sure way in DEFENSIVE battles - not vice-versa.
Try to be more Japan/Asiatic-minded guy while Shogun playing.
Use enemy strength/power/arrogance for destabilising/tripping it. Don't crush him, - taunt your enemy, lure and invite him in non-favorable battle-fields. Ashigaru units is MOST important units in this game - they are dedicated "baits in booby-traps" here. It is main reason - why "running Ashigarus don't influe morale of Samurai Armies. Reason is - Ashigaru is intended by game designers to waive and run out under enemy pressure. Then they've got higher run speed - intentionally. But you must understand - Ashi high speed is designed for fast fleeing/routing, not for pursuing fleeing enemies. Do you see?

It is THE GAME. It is MAGIC SPELL of Shogun. Shogun is closest thing to Go game in whole Total War sequence in its hidden Nature.
Alas, absolute majority of players missed this Asiatic/cunning aspect of this game. Then next game - Medieval in sequence was quite similar to Shogun by appearance, but absolute different in game design. Medieval TW is very Europe-centric game designed for Western market/ Western customer - a lot of different units, complex technology trees and so on and so on.
But if you seek any Crush, Kill and Destroy experience - try some more-"Western-flavoured" thing - like Doom or Quake.

But if you like to get THE pleasure from Shogun try to be elusive, deceptive and treacherous (a bit) in Eastern-like way. Crush your enemy not in frontal assaults, but in tricky defensive battles. Don't attack - try to be attacked.

It is THE KEY for Shogun understanding.

[Drisos]

According to name of this topic it was intended as "Puzzle" - it means you must achieve your goal in most refined/perfect way.

I don't agree - IMO to complete a puzzle you must achieve your goal, as I did. Why do it in all perfection? I love playing shogun (also SP), and have no problem at all winning against the AI. If I can win, while not doing it so perfect, what's the problem?

You must reach Yamashiro province border by this turn.

Why? when I reach musashi border by this turn and complete my campaign 20 years later then I would when getting to yamashiro so soon, what's wrong?

If you've got some another challenge, - pls, explain it.

No. Sorry I missed out the things you said about your own results of the puzzle.

Try to be more Japan/Asiatic-minded guy while Shogun playing.
...
Do you see?

EDIT: This meant to me? Howt do you know my style of playing?

But if you seek any Crush, Kill and Destroy experience - try some more-"Western-flavoured" thing - like Doom or Quake.

I totally dislike games like that, so I'll keep it with shogun only as always.

I appriciate your info are willingness to share all this info on shogun SP - But try to be more - what is the word for this - careful, in what you say. Check your first post, and see what you said to Togakure. I see some things that are rather rude, while I happen to think that he would defeat you in an MP battle.

[Bash]

- But try to be more - what is the word for this - careful, in what you say. Check your first post, and see what you said to Togakure. I see somethings that are rather rude, while I happen to think that he would defeat you in an MP battle.

Sure thing. Sure thing, indeed. He would. But...

You are missing some point now.

Togakure presented this problem for ANY guy around with quite definite message - "Try to best me in stated conditions".
Then - when a lot of guys tried and failed/reached goal, he presented his "solution" of created by HIM problem.
Alas, his "solution" is quite non-satisfactory - I'm afraid, - like idea to drop taxes in Autumn to 75% or making Castle in Echigo.
Right answers is - drop taxes immediately, then in Autumn of 1530 when you will raise tax-level to 125% you will get 130% of Loyalty in freshly taken Hitachi - trust me (yep it will drop in next season to 93% in worst case scenario + you will get some Ashi Rebels if you'll get disatrous year with -50% of harvest, but total ecomical result will be better then in case of dropping to 75% of taxvalue.
Right answer is - Echigo hasn't Iron and you MUST spend as much koku on Silver Mine as possible - at once - for protecting yourself from bad harvesting.
He proposed to give Hojo a chance to reshape its army, but big idea is - if you repel opponent forces from some province - they will get out in chancy manner. Then immediate attack on Shimotsuke after getting Shimosa will DIVIDE and break apart Hojo ranks immediately. Then you will be able to crush them one-by one - not whole batch in Musashi bridge battle - like in Toga situation.

Then your reasoning is like reasoning of Nazi generals in Summer of 1941. "We crushed Soviet might completely - it isn't difference if we kill them immediately or - in next year". Do you see?
Do you remember Great Nrthern War - Swedish King wiped out whole Russian army in 1700 completely and start to be busy with some different ideas. Then whole Swedish Army was completely wiped out after 8 years. Do you see?
Moral is - don't give your enemy any chance to stabilize. Press him. Stalk him. Don't wait something - like - while local loyalty would improved.

Let's pretend - you don't see any difference in "conquering whole Japan" immediately or in 20 years later. Let's imagine - some European power would help your opponents in these 20 years time period, but refuse to yield to you any Guns.
Let's imagine - Spirits of Ancient become to be quite angry on you for your absolute indifference to fulfil their wish - present Shogun to ravaged country as fast as possible - then any battle against your opponents (with European Guns in possession) occur under fine/dry condition and more then that - you never receive "Legendary Swordsman event" for your indifference.

Are you still sure if speed of your winning isn't important? It is wrong way of thinking for intended Shogun, and big disrespect for "Kami"s and your country. Your goal is - stop Civil War by any means and ANY unnecessary spent season must be grave burden on your conscience.

Your last post means - you are playing this game as power-seeker of some sort like some sort of adventurer, but it is wrong approach. Your conquest for Shogunate is tool for stopping War and National Disaster - not your own Ego-boosting request.

While you will not see any difference in speed for completing your Eternal Request for Shogunate, - you missed whole idea of Shogun game completely.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bash
Try to be more Japan/Asiatic-minded guy while Shogun playing.
...
Do you see?



This meant to me? Think twice! What do you know about my style of playing? IMO nothing!

Excuse me for repeating - you are missing idea of some sentences.
I don't know anything about of your style of playing. And I didn't make any assumptions about your "style of playing". But...

I know your way of thinking. It shows itself in your any post - I'm afraid. Then I advised you "to think like japan daymyo" while Shogun playing - not to play in "Asiatic manner".

Excuse me for pointing you - you are fighting for Shogun title - not for throne of Emperor of whole Japan!
You are not fighting for any equivalent of Western Crown, you are not trying to grab more lands or built more castles.
You are fighting for - MAKING THINGS IN RIGHT MANNER, - no more, no less.

You like to stop eternal war, pointless struggle and unnecessary suffering of innocent people. Yep, you are ready to do any steps for reaching this Terminal Request. You must mind about speed of your game. Any excessive day WILL multiply suffering of your own people. Then you MUST be speedy - in conscious/reasonable way.
Then ANY idea like "it isn't difference - either I will win immediately, or in 20 years" - show just one thing - you are still not seeing situation in "japan daymyo" manner. Alas...

Hmm... Quite interesting arguments do you have. Do you realize difference between STRATEGICAL Nature of Shogun Single Player Campaign, and absolute TACTICAL Nature of Shogun Multiplayer?

I explained some quite simple STRATEGIC ideas - like build Castles for troop-raising in Iron provinces - not in Silver provinces; or Archers are more effective in defensive battles on bridges then while assaulting enemy through aforementioned bridges.
Then you start to be touchy with next statement - "you are rude and some guy can beat you in a bloody pulp in TACTICAL battle".

Quite interesting sort of argument do you have - like:
Statement: "You've got wrong economy policy - your planned economy is direct way to disaster".
Answer: "Mind your own business. If you will try to be rude our friend' tanks/panzers show you all your mistakes on battle-field!"

No problem. I'm sure - prowess in leading panzer assault of your friend against some "free-economy minded community" can be non-comparable. But if he will insist to raise troops/Panzers in no-Iron/Silver province, then his STRATEGICAL decision would be rather... strange, I'm afraid.

[Drisos]

Togakure presented this problem for ANY guy around with quite definite message - "Try to best me in stated conditions".

Wrong. Toga set up this puzzle to let others have some fun playing and practicing STW SP campaign.

Then your reasoning is like reasoning of Nazi generals in Summer of 1941.

Do not compare me with Nazi generals!

"We crushed Soviet might completely - it isn't difference if we kill them immediately or - in next year". Do you see?

I think I see - But I still don't agree, IMO is doesn't matter.

Let's imagine - some European power would help your opponents in these 20 years time period, but refuse to yield to you any Guns.

Now we're entering my strategy, but I can tell you: I adjust myself to things that happen during the campaign. Maybe I couldn't have solved it in this situation, but you're not talking about STW anymore. The Portugese and Dutch come to all clans.

While you will not see any difference in speed for completing your Eternal Request for Shogunate.

I do see a difference, and don't want it to take too long, but I enjoy playing STW and don't mind a campaign lasting longer then 5 years.

You missed the whole idea of Shogun game completely

don't think so at all! how long would it take you to complete a campaign, 10 years? when do the dutch come to japan, 30 years? (not exactly but in any case later then 10 years I know) If the makers of shogun insisted me to be so soon in completing campaigns, why would they add those things anyway?

I think you're more talking about real history, where I also would've tried to do it as fast as possible. But hey! this is just a video game! I like campaigns a bit longer and in games it's about fun isn't it? a longer campaign gives me more fun so I prefer to play them a bit slower. the idea behind any video game is fun, btw.

And I didn't make any assumptions about your style of playing.

Not that I mind, but you did:

Try to be more Japan/Asiatic-minded guy while Shogun playing.

So you thought I was not 'Japan/Asiatic-minded'.

Quite interesting arguments do you have.

Don't get nasty.

Do you realize difference between STRATEGICAL Nature of Shogun Single Player Campaign, and absolute TACTICAL Nature of Shogun Multiplayer?

Of course. I play both SP and MP.

Then you start to be touchy with next statement ...

Wrong. I found your first post in some parts rude and was trying to get your respect for TogakureOJonin as he deserves it. It had nothing to do with you, while you self started with "Quite intresting arguments do you have"

"you are rude and some guy can beat you in a bloody pulp in TACTICAL battle".

Please compare with:

Check your first post, and see what you said to Togakure. I see some things that are rather rude, while I happen to think that he would defeat you in an MP battle.

It doesn't even come close! I would never say "you are rude and some guy can beat you in a bloody pulp in TACTICAL battle". Please quote correctly .

Quite interesting sort of argument do you have ...

Don't get nasty.

Statement: "You've got wrong economy policy - your planned economy is direct way to disaster".

To disaster? As I said, I complete campaigns at expert simply, what has that got to do with disaster? Maybe it is not as good as it could be, but it's good enough not to lead to disaster.

Answer: "Mind your own business.

Did I say that? I just asked why it would be so important to win my campaign 10 years earlier. As I said: thanks for posting all that info on SP. Again, I did not say this, please quote correctly.

If you will try to be rude our friend' tanks/panzers show you all your mistakes on battle-field!"

Did I say that? I told you that I found your first post rude in some points, and tried to get your respect for him by telling you that he's better in the MP point. You might be better in SP, but he'd never be rude to you about that his MP skills are better. Once again, I did not say that. Please quote correctly.

[Togakure]

My connection is not gone yet, soon though. Hmm, away for bit and come back, maybe for the last time in a long time, to find this. Interesting ... I don't think I will miss this place much, though I will miss some of the patrons (high-five's Drisos).

...Togakure presented this problem for ANY guy around with quite definite message - "Try to best me in stated conditions".
Then - when a lot of guys tried and failed/reached goal, he presented his "solution" of created by HIM problem. ...

You make a big assumption here, and you are incorrect. I presented the puzzle to give SP players an opportunity to try and reach the stated goals in the stated time frames--for the fun of it. I used my game as an example. I waited to post my strategy because to have done so from the start would have taken the fun out of trying to meet the conditions.

Your assumption does not surprise me however, given the fabulous ego that you display in your several posts here. While you state fairly efficient methods of approaching the opening of this campaign, efficiency is not the bottom line in strategic warfare. That's why accountants usually make poor generals. This method is one of many that I use in this scenario. The (small) castles in each province provide the opportunity for flexibility later in the campaign. Shinobi are portable internal security forces--the more you have the better, as they cost little to produce and nothing to upkeep. The castle in Echigo is closest to Shinano, and troops produced there have less far to travel to reach my front lines--efficiency in a different sense. The mine costs 500 koku, which I chose to spend on troops given the necessary timing involved in taking out the Hojo capital asap. My method is different, but I don't think it's inferior. Nor do I think yours is inferior, again, just different.

Perhaps next time you comment, instead of putting your ideas forward like you did, try simply saying: I have a different approach to the opening in this scenario--here it is. As its stands, you have merely demonstrated your considerable ego and a seeming sense of insecurity, in that you seem to need to put the ideas of others down in order to make yours appear more grand. Tell me--why did you immediately assume that this thread was created to gratify my ego ... (wink-wink)?

Think in a "asiatic" way? I was born in Zama, not far from Mount Fuji, and my mother was a native of Sapporo, living there until she met my father and moved, with me in tow, to California. The better half of me is Japanese.

Playing MP well online has as much to do with understanding the controls and performance/behaviors of units at various honor and upgrade levels as it does having any tactical savvy, so whether or not I could beat you in an MP battle really has no bearing on who is a "better" tactician or strategist. But I concede, I'm sure you are much better, as this is only a game for me.

Welcome to the Org ... .