A Shogun Puzzle with the Uesugi

[Togakure]

My connection is not gone yet, soon though. Hmm, away for bit and come back, maybe for the last time in a long time, to find this. Interesting ... I don't think I will miss this place much, though I will miss some of the patrons (high-five's Drisos).

...Togakure presented this problem for ANY guy around with quite definite message - "Try to best me in stated conditions".
Then - when a lot of guys tried and failed/reached goal, he presented his "solution" of created by HIM problem. ...

You make a big assumption here, and you are incorrect. I presented the puzzle to give SP players an opportunity to try and reach the stated goals in the stated time frames--for the fun of it. I used my game as an example. I waited to post my strategy because to have done so from the start would have taken the fun out of trying to meet the conditions.

Your assumption does not surprise me however, given the fabulous ego that you display in your several posts here. While you state fairly efficient methods of approaching the opening of this campaign, efficiency is not the bottom line in strategic warfare. That's why accountants usually make poor generals. This method is one of many that I use in this scenario. The (small) castles in each province provide the opportunity for flexibility later in the campaign. Shinobi are portable internal security forces--the more you have the better, as they cost little to produce and nothing to upkeep. The castle in Echigo is closest to Shinano, and troops produced there have less far to travel to reach my front lines--efficiency in a different sense. The mine costs 500 koku, which I chose to spend on troops given the necessary timing involved in taking out the Hojo capital asap. My method is different, but I don't think it's inferior. Nor do I think yours is inferior, again, just different.

Perhaps next time you comment, instead of putting your ideas forward like you did, try simply saying: I have a different approach to the opening in this scenario--here it is. As its stands, you have merely demonstrated your considerable ego and a seeming sense of insecurity, in that you seem to need to put the ideas of others down in order to make yours appear more grand. Tell me--why did you immediately assume that this thread was created to gratify my ego ... (wink-wink)?

Think in a "asiatic" way? I was born in Zama, not far from Mount Fuji, and my mother was a native of Sapporo, living there until she met my father and moved, with me in tow, to California. The better half of me is Japanese.

Playing MP well online has as much to do with understanding the controls and performance/behaviors of units at various honor and upgrade levels as it does having any tactical savvy, so whether or not I could beat you in an MP battle really has no bearing on who is a "better" tactician or strategist. But I concede, I'm sure you are much better, as this is only a game for me.

Welcome to the Org ... .

[Bash]

I've got some sort of historical fable.
Once upon a time - around of 1832 - just after suppression of Polish Uprising in Russian Empire Czar/Russian Emperor Nicholas I asked his friends (members so named Inner Circle or Hidden Council) - why Russian losses in last campaign was so great?
It occures in supper after good drinking and singing with air of definitely camaraderie between friends (all members of Hidden Council with notable exception of Czar himself were actual battle generals with a couple of wars behind) then there was a lot of answers - bitter and rude very often like it is usual between dedicated fighters while drinking procedure.
According to communal rememberance - only one guy kept his silence. His name was - Count (highest military-derived PERSONAL noble title) Alexander von Benckendorff - Chief of Secret Police, Head of Third Depertment (Foreign and Domestic Hidden Affairs) and so on and so on - direct cousin of Emperor. He was considered as smartest guy in Hidden Council - by the way, but had a formidable military career - took part in Austerlitz - was commander in chief in Retreat after this battle, Preusish-Eulau - commander of battle security line; Friedland - commander of battle line again, Borodino - hold his position till end - as commander of Jager regiments in front of "Kurgan Battery" of Rayevsky, received Pour le Merite from Preusish Crown for command of Russian forces in Berlin operation in Feb of 1813 and so on and so on... This guy named as "Council member with maximal count of battle scars" - by the way.
His silence in similar discussion usually means his disagreement with given question. When Emperor asked why Count don't like to answer, he said.
"I'm silent, because my answer can hurt all our Council Members - good feelings. I'm silent - because my point of view differ from point of view of all other members of our Council.
Please, see in depth of your hearts and answer - WHO is Hero from two commanders?
Both of them is before one and the same problem: they've got 100 men and enemy - 200 men.
First guy find out perfect position, attacked enemy and due to his great military skill destroyed enemies completely - losing in process 95 guys from 100. Is he - Hero, because he won 1 battle 100 vs 200?"
All Council answered in unison: "Yes, he is - Hero."
"Fine",- said Count of Benckendorff - "then second guy start to maneuver, divided enemy onto 10 regiments - 200 men in each and then he crushed them in 10 different battles losing only 5 men in process. Is he Hero, because he won 10 battles 100 vs 20?"
In complete silence of audience only Czar answered very low: "No, he isn't Hero. He is... Accountant..."
"Sure thing" - laughed Count Benckendorff - everybody in Russia is ready to say - "First guy is Hero, Second is - not. But both of them reached their goal anyway, but first butchered 95% of his men in process, when Second wasted only 5% of his precious guys. Then why do you ask about our big losses in last campaign? All our military teaching is about of reaching Victory by ANY cost, not about Winning wars. Then Russia used to lose more soldiers then opponents in ANY war in history. Russia lost more soldiers in whole serie of Napoleonic wars then all other European countries taken in sum!
While you will continue to name Butchers as Heros, and Caring Generals as Accountants - you will get, what do you get!"
Czar bitterly laughed and said - "You are right, Benckendorff, but you never will get any supporters of your opinion in our military".
"I know" - answered Benckendorff, - "then I lost any interest in raising Russian troops/officers any more, I prefer to teach something - for young Baltic/Ostsean and Finnish officers - their minds are still unspoiled by common Russian military attitude".

Well, it's end of story. It was quite well-known thing for Russian historians, but results of Finnish campaign of 1939-1940 was quite puzzling for Soviet officers - anyway.

P.S. Excuse me for pointing you, but present condition of MP in Shogun is far cry for reality. You are continuing to name as "Hero" and "Best Tactician" - actual Butchers of their own army.
But real war isn't equal to one "Final Battle" - it is used to be a long row of attrition meetings/engagements between two powers, isn't it?
Any "Accountants" like Kutuzov or Barclay (and both of them were rather accountants in the battle-field) will lose all their battles against "Best Tactician" like Napoleon (and he was BEST tactician of his times - thumbs down), but Napoleonic wars will come to the same ending "Accountants" victory - anyway.

[Drisos]

But real war isn't equal to one "Final Battle" - it is used to be a long row of attrition meetings/engagements between two powers, isn't it?
Any "Accountants" like Kutuzov or Barclay (and both of them were rather accountants in the battle-field) will lose all their battles against "Best Tactician" like Napoleon (and he was BEST tactician of his times - thumbs down), but Napoleonic wars will come to the same ending "Accountants" victory - anyway.

I challenge you. Go to the 'STW MP' forum. Check the 'Want to play an MP campaign?' thread. Join it. Good luck.

I consider myself Tactician. Too bad battles in the campaign are AI vs. AI. I wouldn't mind meeting you on the battlefield once.

[Bash]

I challenge you. Go to the 'STW MP' forum. Check the 'Want to play an MP campaign?' thread. Join it. Good luck.

I consider myself Tactician. Too bad battles in the campaign are AI vs. AI. I wouldn't mind meeting you on the battlefield once.

Good idea... But I've got an impression - only weakest possible clan - like Imagawa - remains... And playing against Oda, Uesugi, Takeda AND Shimatsu in the same time is really scary thing... Not sure if I've got enough personal time for fighting onto 2 fronts simultaneously (amounts of my personal battles would raise pretty high....)
More then that - what about 3-sides battles like - Hojo hold Musashi and it is attacked from both sides (from Uesugi/Imagawa Shinano and Takedo Kia - simultaneously). What side will be alone on their bank of river? Who will decide it? I'm sure it would means - this side will be victorious in result - won't it?
What about "non-sporting" conduct - like Mori leader behavior in Sekigakhara battle? Is it allowed?
If it is - will Imagawa receive less penalty for this behavior (in other case playing as "treacherous Imagawa" is pointless)? What is penalty for the same behavior from "honest" Takeda or "monklike" Uesugi factions?
What about usual for Sengoku Jidai practice - backstab in midst of battle your ally and I will present you my bordering province for your ugly treason? Can I present you small amount of koku for your Ninja killing some important guy of third faction?
Must all factions receive "legendary Swordsman" event in the same time? Must Portuguese apeear in closest to them Shimazu lands in the same time with their appearance in farthest to them Uesugi lands?
I couldn't find answer on all these questions in pointed thread, then I must refuse till full clarification of procedure.

In the same time - if Imagawa leader will be allowed for "treacherous behavior" without actual punishment for these exploits (like possibility to bribe somebody for treason amidst battlefield, with almost sure punishment for the same things from "honest" factions),

or - for example - only Imagawa is allowed:
- to pay for intelligence information about third-party troops distribution in interesting provinces;
- to pay for assasination events on third-party guys;
- to make amphibious assault - via enemy ports where Imagawa spy residue) -

this clan leading would be - quite interesting task for me.

Please, give me your clarification about these thing and will try to show you - why "Snake hiss is more scaring then Lion roar" according to well-known Eastern saying.

[Togakure]

I enjoyed the story Bash, and I tend to agree with Benckendorff's position. It is for this very reason that I don't usually rush to victory when I play a campaign; I don't go slow, but I don't rush either. As Musashi said: timing is everything. I use strategic position, strength in numbers and quality of troops, and carefully timed and coordinated "flow," to prevent the enemy from incurring on my borders, advancing my lines in a manner that allows me to maintain border security while directing my opponents where I want them. I do my best to "win without fighting"; forcing the enemy to withdraw from a province rather than be drastically defeated in battle. I redirect enemy attention by conducting surgical strikes against key infrastructure provinces far behind his lines, and by creating discord and rebellion with shinobi in lightly garrisoned provinces recently taken by the enemy. I choose one ally who offers the most benefit in strategic strength and position, and I usually remain loyal with that ally until he betrays me or he is the last remaining daimyo to contest the title of Shogun. But I never leave the borders between us weak ... .

It would be interesting to log a campaign and keep track of how many men are killed on the path to victory. My guess is, my casualties would be lower than the average player's--but that's just a guess.

P.S. Excuse me for pointing you, but present condition of MP in Shogun is far cry for reality. You are continuing to name as "Hero" and "Best Tactician" - actual Butchers of their own army.

I don't understand what you mean by this ... whom have we named "hero" and "best tactician," who butchers his own army? I can't speak for other MP players, but unlike a lot of players who seem to take the most pride in number of kills, I am most pleased when the ratio of kills to losses is good. I was also most impressed by something put forward by an old Kenchikuka clan member (Baz, I believe), who said that they took the most pride in routing the enemy from the field quickly--minimizing losses on both sides while still achieving victory.

What did you mean by this statement?

EDIT: As far as the "One Final Victory" comment goes, you could always play a series of MP battles instead of just one. You could change maps, change game conditions, set limitations on units, try different stats--there is much you can do to spice up an MP challenge. Granted, MP is predominantly tactical in nature--unlike the campaign game. But wars are not usually won by sound strategy alone--perhaps ideally they would be, but war has never been that "convenient." Tactics play a crucial role in the execution of strategy--and in making up for strategic oversights when things don't go as planned.

So are you going to take up Drisos' challenge, or wiggle around some more like a snake (wink-wink). All in good fun, mind you ... .

[Bash]

So are you going to take up Drisos' challenge, or wiggle around some more like a snake (wink-wink). All in good fun, mind you ... .

If you are checking pointed tread you can find answer on your question.

Alas, they've got only lowly and poor Imagawa role - as it seems, then I posted my requests and conditions to fill in this - quite unwanted - position.
If my intended Master - Lord Oda will promise his suzerain covering, if mighty Takeda would agree on my proposition - Mikawa, Totomi and Suruga is mine, Kai, Izu, Sagami, Musashi and Shinano are - his realms and he will spare my unworthy life - I will participitate in the fun.

But first of all - Kami of Ancients must promise me their eternal wrath on breaker of our Eternal Agreements. Everybody can hurt old, feeble and wrinkled Imagawa - then all his hopes lies in hand of Eternal Heavens and Kami of Ancients.

I will keep my promises - word of Rascal is more worth then word of some nobles, but if nobles will not give me their words in Ancient Shrine before Kami of Ancients - any things are futile.

Do you see?

[Togakure]

Ahhh ... I think I understand now. You are referring to the Multiplayer Campaign, to be conducted by Elmark of Fear and in which Drisos is participating. Drisos has challenged you to a battle or series of battles online, which is different from that campaign. He is not challenging you in the Multiplayer Campaign--that goes without saying.

I think the most interesting discovery in the MP Campaign will be that many who pride themselves in their strategic performance against the AI will be very surprised to find that it is much more difficult to strategize against human adversaries--just as it is much more difficult to defeat a human adversary on the MP battlefield. One doesn't have the benefit of studying the opponent's patterns of behavior before making critical decisions, as one does after numerous games against the AI.

I hope people will post threads about what happens in the MP campaign with enough detail to get a good picture of what happens, so I can enjoy reading them when I am able to return. I am very interested in how things turn out.

[Bash]

Ahhh ... I think I understand now. You are referring to the Multiplayer Campaign, to be conducted by Elmark of Fear and in which Drisos is participating. Drisos has challenged you to a battle or series of battles online, which is different from that campaign. He is not challenging you in the Multiplayer Campaign--that goes without saying.

I think the most interesting discovery in the MP Campaign will be that many who pride themselves in their strategic performance against the AI will be very surprised to find that it is much more difficult to strategize against human adversaries--just as it is much more difficult to defeat a human adversary on the MP battlefield. One doesn't have the benefit of studying the opponent's patterns of behavior before making critical decisions, as one does after numerous games against the AI.

I hope people will post threads about what happens in the MP campaign with enough detail to get a good picture of what happens, so I can enjoy reading them when I am able to return. I am very interested in how things turn out.

I just followed his lead:

I challenge you. Go to the 'STW MP' forum. Check the 'Want to play an MP campaign?' thread. Join it. Good luck.

Pls, explain where is in this pointed thread is mentioned by you:

Drisos has challenged you to a battle or series of battles online, which is different from that campaign. He is not challenging you in the Multiplayer Campaign--that goes without saying.

If I've got some sort of challenge I'm used to answer it in its plain value - not to interpret it in any weird way.
He challenged me into Multiplayer Campaign, - nothing else. If you can find any other ideas in POINTED BY DRISOS tread, please show me my mistakes in understanding Drisos challenge.

[Togakure]

Aha ... perhaps I am mistaken then. As the MP Campaign will involve teams of two for each faction, I didn't think one person could challenge another individual, as each will have to agree with his teammate in regard to strategy. Drisos has been very active in trying to get people to play MP online (tactical real-time battles), and I missed his direct reference to the MP Campaign thread. I thought he was challenging you to come online, put your koku where your mouth is, and try to best him in a series of battles.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

I always took "best victory" in shogun to mean in the least amount of time. 5 years was the shortest time for me though (takeda 1550 expert). Do you go for time in your campaigns Bash?

[Bash]

I always took "best victory" in shogun to mean in the least amount of time. 5 years was the shortest time for me though (takeda 1550 expert). Do you go for time in your campaigns Bash?

Yep, I do. I've got only Classic Shogun copy, then I can make only Sengoku Jidai runs. Uesugi campaign is simplest and fastest. Let's say... I forgot exact amount of time for its completion (it is ... ehm... definitely longer then 5 years - you can realize it by my mentioning - I come into Yamashiro border in 4-year moment) then I would hide result of my best effort for Uesugi in shame for my slowness :).

[Togakure]

Five years for complete domination in any campaign is amazingly fast. Did this involve killing heirs and daimyos and inheriting lands (in battle, as I know most don't like using assassins)? 20 turns is not so much to document, and would make a very interesting and informative write up for this forum ... I am very curious to see how such a lightning strike is achieved.

My games tend to run 15-20 years if I push it. But again, I emphasis methodical expansion, minimizing loss of life, while maximizing production, military, and ecomic might in order to hold what I take, rather than pure speed. In a real-world scenario, the "game" does not "end" with conquest ... I like to be in an indomitable position to theoretically keep what I have by game end, which means fabulous wealth, invincible armies, staunch fortifications, massive production capability, pervasive intelligence, and the finest commanders. I get the greatest satisfaction when all of these flow together into a crushing and maintainable victory. But for me, the primary concern is minimizing loss of life, as it would be if it were a "real-world" situation.