A Shogun Puzzle with the Uesugi

[Togakure]

Ahhh ... I think I understand now. You are referring to the Multiplayer Campaign, to be conducted by Elmark of Fear and in which Drisos is participating. Drisos has challenged you to a battle or series of battles online, which is different from that campaign. He is not challenging you in the Multiplayer Campaign--that goes without saying.

I think the most interesting discovery in the MP Campaign will be that many who pride themselves in their strategic performance against the AI will be very surprised to find that it is much more difficult to strategize against human adversaries--just as it is much more difficult to defeat a human adversary on the MP battlefield. One doesn't have the benefit of studying the opponent's patterns of behavior before making critical decisions, as one does after numerous games against the AI.

I hope people will post threads about what happens in the MP campaign with enough detail to get a good picture of what happens, so I can enjoy reading them when I am able to return. I am very interested in how things turn out.

[Bash]

Ahhh ... I think I understand now. You are referring to the Multiplayer Campaign, to be conducted by Elmark of Fear and in which Drisos is participating. Drisos has challenged you to a battle or series of battles online, which is different from that campaign. He is not challenging you in the Multiplayer Campaign--that goes without saying.

I think the most interesting discovery in the MP Campaign will be that many who pride themselves in their strategic performance against the AI will be very surprised to find that it is much more difficult to strategize against human adversaries--just as it is much more difficult to defeat a human adversary on the MP battlefield. One doesn't have the benefit of studying the opponent's patterns of behavior before making critical decisions, as one does after numerous games against the AI.

I hope people will post threads about what happens in the MP campaign with enough detail to get a good picture of what happens, so I can enjoy reading them when I am able to return. I am very interested in how things turn out.

I just followed his lead:

I challenge you. Go to the 'STW MP' forum. Check the 'Want to play an MP campaign?' thread. Join it. Good luck.

Pls, explain where is in this pointed thread is mentioned by you:

Drisos has challenged you to a battle or series of battles online, which is different from that campaign. He is not challenging you in the Multiplayer Campaign--that goes without saying.

If I've got some sort of challenge I'm used to answer it in its plain value - not to interpret it in any weird way.
He challenged me into Multiplayer Campaign, - nothing else. If you can find any other ideas in POINTED BY DRISOS tread, please show me my mistakes in understanding Drisos challenge.

[Togakure]

Aha ... perhaps I am mistaken then. As the MP Campaign will involve teams of two for each faction, I didn't think one person could challenge another individual, as each will have to agree with his teammate in regard to strategy. Drisos has been very active in trying to get people to play MP online (tactical real-time battles), and I missed his direct reference to the MP Campaign thread. I thought he was challenging you to come online, put your koku where your mouth is, and try to best him in a series of battles.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

I always took "best victory" in shogun to mean in the least amount of time. 5 years was the shortest time for me though (takeda 1550 expert). Do you go for time in your campaigns Bash?

[Bash]

I always took "best victory" in shogun to mean in the least amount of time. 5 years was the shortest time for me though (takeda 1550 expert). Do you go for time in your campaigns Bash?

Yep, I do. I've got only Classic Shogun copy, then I can make only Sengoku Jidai runs. Uesugi campaign is simplest and fastest. Let's say... I forgot exact amount of time for its completion (it is ... ehm... definitely longer then 5 years - you can realize it by my mentioning - I come into Yamashiro border in 4-year moment) then I would hide result of my best effort for Uesugi in shame for my slowness :).

[Togakure]

Five years for complete domination in any campaign is amazingly fast. Did this involve killing heirs and daimyos and inheriting lands (in battle, as I know most don't like using assassins)? 20 turns is not so much to document, and would make a very interesting and informative write up for this forum ... I am very curious to see how such a lightning strike is achieved.

My games tend to run 15-20 years if I push it. But again, I emphasis methodical expansion, minimizing loss of life, while maximizing production, military, and ecomic might in order to hold what I take, rather than pure speed. In a real-world scenario, the "game" does not "end" with conquest ... I like to be in an indomitable position to theoretically keep what I have by game end, which means fabulous wealth, invincible armies, staunch fortifications, massive production capability, pervasive intelligence, and the finest commanders. I get the greatest satisfaction when all of these flow together into a crushing and maintainable victory. But for me, the primary concern is minimizing loss of life, as it would be if it were a "real-world" situation.

[Bash]

Sure thing - 10 years is quite closer call for total domination in Shogun for my experience, but this level (by my experience from Sengoku Jidai campaigning) is reachable by only quite economically strong and powerful clans - like Uesugi or Hojo. Shimatsu and Mori starting development would be slower - then their times is closer to 15 years. Oda, Takeda and Imagawa have very many opps from start - then in "Fair Campaigns" (no reloading is allowed) - 20 years is great achievement.
Mind you - I never use Daymyo and Heir killings, maybe it is my fault, but it seems quite out from game-athmosphere. If Leader of clan is old - according to Sengoku Jidai custom he would adopted somebody. Excuse me for reminding - Uesugi KENSHIN couldn't have ANY biologic heirs, then idea of whole giant clan crumbling, because you kill all sons of Daymyo in question - is rather laughable thing.

I haven't experience in MI/WE environment, then 5-years for total domination is as good number as 50-years for my perception, but if you've got 2 different stacks of 16 units and send them by different roads you can conquer 2 provinces in each turn... Ehm... Maybe...
Well, you will get quite problems in Sikoku Islans environment where you would need to divide your second stack for obvious reasons, while your main army would get some problem in Nagato bottleneck. Hm-m-m...
I don't know environment, but 5 years for total domination is GREAT ACHIEVMENT indeed!

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Building cost half as much and are built in half the time in MI. Makes it easier. As takeda in 1550 you start 1 province but some nice buildings. I remember first turn I took five provinces but the details are a bit hazy after that. Mainly I relied on being able to attack the AI with only half the numbers and win easily.

I don't have the saves anymore but maybe I will try it again and do a write up.

[Drisos]

Togakure, you indeed made a little mistake m8. I challenged him to join the MP campaign to see if he's really that good in campaigns.

Bash, I think you studied the AI so much you know exactly what he is going to do so you know what you must do. But in an MP campaign, it is very different. You are not playing a machine, but a thinking player.

Please don't complain about playing the Imagawa. See the things you said in our discussion here you are so much better then me in campaigns, and having a 'bad' clan shouldn't be a problem.

Anyway, I think Toga has given me a better idea. Please check the 'How to host shogun MP games' thread in 'STW MP' forum. Get your congifuration ready and tell me some time you can play some MP battles. Because as Toga said the campaign will be played in teams and maybe the different clans will give some teams advantage and others not, so some battles would be more fair to compare our skills in shogun I guess.

[Wilbo]

Which reminds me! Drisos, or anyone else for that matter, I MUST play online at some point

I play single player like you, Drisos: for fun. There is absolutely no reason for you have to play to complete the game as quickly or sneakily as possible: Shogun is great as there is no forced path. As we have discussed here many times in the past, there are many different paths you can take to become Shogun. Sometimes I purely use small armies of battle hardened Samurai warriors, sometimes huge armies of Ashigaru or sometimes just use the Way of Stealth and backstab my way to the top!

I hardly ever finish a game of Shogun as I tend to get bored when the armies become entrenched later on. I love the first few years of the game and so challenges like the one in this thread give me a chance to enjoy the game in new and exciting ways.

[Drisos]

Which reminds me! Drisos, or anyone else for that matter, I MUST play online at some point.

Well, I'd love to! Only you're not here so often - probably because of other duties - so it's hard to communicate. If you like, I can give you my MSN via PM. I always log in when I have time for STW MP.

I play single player like you, Drisos: for fun. There is absolutely no reason for you have to play to complete the game as quickly or sneakily as possible: Shogun is great as there is no forced path. As we have discussed here many times in the past, there are many different paths you can take to become Shogun. Sometimes I purely use small armies of battle hardened Samurai warriors, sometimes huge armies of Ashigaru or sometimes just use the Way of Stealth and backstab my way to the top!

I hardly ever finish a game of Shogun as I tend to get bored when the armies become entrenched later on. I love the first few years of the game and so challenges like the one in this thread give me a chance to enjoy the game in new and exciting ways.

I agree on all points. And I also love the first few years of a campaign and stop some of them after a while. (not our mp campaign )

[Bash]

Bash, I think you studied the AI so much you know exactly what he is going to do so you know what you must do. But in an MP campaign, it is very different. You are not playing a machine, but a thinking player.

Please don't complain about playing the Imagawa. See the things you said in our discussion here you are so much better then me in campaigns, and having a 'bad' clan shouldn't be a problem.

Anyway, I think Toga has given me a better idea. Please check the 'How to host shogun MP games' thread in 'STW MP' forum. Get your congifuration ready and tell me some time you can play some MP battles. Because as Toga said the campaign will be played in teams and maybe the different clans will give some teams advantage and others not, so some battles would be more fair to compare our skills in shogun I guess.

You answer show me - you don't understand real pleasure in playing in MP campaigns of EU2 or HoI type. I don't like to play any queue of MP battles with anyone, because I've got enough of my share in the past (I'd like to repeat - I abandoned this Forum and MP environment in the moment when I realized - I know/see/percept next possible move of my opponent, then all battle become to be not fun, but - just boredom. No, I'm not ready to say - like I won all my battles - quite contrary I was lower then middle player - as it seems (if we will take in account information - other and definitely better players were Vanja and other fantastic players of that period).
Then I spend last two years in Europe Universalis (and Heart of Iron - a bit) multiplayer environment with a lot of players interaction, web of diplomatic intrigues, intentional backstabbing of "sworn allies" and such.
But recently I became to be bored with tactical simplification of EU2 battles, then I returned to this environment - with attempt to give Shogun/Medieval necessary human interaction (scheming/cunning/diplomatic intricacies) flavor with usage of its unparralleled tactical Nature.

No, I would completely satisfied with role of "wrinkled" Imagawa, but YOU must understand - why all other clan leaders - saw him as "treacherous Imagawa". It would be shame for this devious guy to start any adventure without any bargain and getting some sort of advantage. My whining and begging - is just standard initial part of any Lord Imagawa prance, but if you saw my answer to some guy, which asked - if place is free and I suggested him to be "alter ego of Lord Imagawa" - you had to detect some other side of Lord Imagawa - quite complex personality.
Yep, I'd like to play Lord Imagawa as sort of RPG Campaign - with all usual Lord Imagawa lamentations and complaints.

Sure thing I would against AI vs AI battling, because I know quite cheating way to win these battles. If you wonder I will reveal you one weird thing about them - AI is checking presence of some sort of unit, but not actual amount of presented unit. It means - for AI - army with daymyo unit, 5 Arch, 5 YSam and 5 Ashi is the SAME like - daymyo unit, 1 Arch, 1 YSam and 13 Ashi. I'm sure you wasn't aware about this thing, then if we would play against each other - you would wonder - why my (predominantly Ashi, but numerous) armies used to beat your mounted Takeda (yep Takeda Cavalry is considered by AI as less-potent unit then YSam, sure thing Takeda Cav is considered stronger then Ashi, but in Ai vs AI battle 1/3 of my Ashi would became to be seen by AI as YSam - surprise, surprise!).
If I would like to get an advantage I would hide this knowledge from you, but I don't like to get an advantage - I'd like to have FUN - first of all.

If you like to know - what all string of Lord Imagawa complaints was about, I would reveal to you idea of it (just scetchy).

1. I've got an impression like Lord Mori has already declared his hostile intention to Oda-sama. In this case - we must realise - with notable exception of Mino province (which has common border with Uesugi Shinano province) Imagawa lands is only dangerous neighbor for Lord Oda. More then that - most important Oda province - Owari is in direct vicinity to Imagawa lands.
If Oda decline my "vassality request" he get into giant pincers of some sort. Mori open hostility on West with combined assault of Lord Imagawa on East (whose sense of dignity would be hurted - he preposed his servitude and intended Master declined this request for Eternal Friendship - Lord Imagawa must be furious - as result ;)
Yep, I know my immediate assault onto Owari is quite suicidal, but I must teach anybody - a lesson. Any proposed Agreement consist some non-said part with meaning - if you would decline me, I WILL do all opposite and non-said (very often non-speakable ;) thing - for my hurt pride and dignity.
Well, I hope Lord Oda don't like to be suicidal - I will destroy his base in Owari - yesw, by quite huge price, but his position will be corrupted to no extent.
You must realize - "Eternal Friendship" between Oda and Imagawa clans of real history was about the same - both clans could destroy each other by cost of self-destruction - then both of them preferred to be as "Eternal friends".

2. If Lord Oda start quite long feud with Mori in West lands (as in real history) Lord Takead lands wouldn't be hurted by Lord Mori activity (yep, Lord Mori can attack Oda and Takeda simultaneously, but it is sure way into Void, I'm afraid.
Then second priority for Lord Imagawa must be his relations with Lord Takeda. Yep, Suruga province of Imagawa is actually defenseless before any form of Takeda activity, but this province is poor and ... I'm ready to make this province as change coin with anyove - it lacks all interesting resources - has quite flat terrain and so on and so on. Most interesting featuire of this province is - it is defenseless from BOTH sides. As soon as Takeda will be bound in rich portal Sagami in case of Hojo activity, or would repel any attack onto Kai province - Lord Imagawa will be ready to return this province and will be glad to make Lord Takeda life - quite miserable. Fighting against pincers attack from both sides isn't good thing in Shogun environment.
Then Imagawa is ready to make a bargain - Imagawa is ready to see Shinano with it's Cavalry bonuses or all-important Musashi as Takeda lands. Both these assumptions means - Imagawa is ready to give Takead a helping hand against his eastern neighbors.
You must realize - Shinano and Musashi is more juicy lands for Takeda clan then poor-soiled Suruga or Totomi (and it is self-explainable - Imagawa would be ready to fight for Totomy be claws and teeth). Then I'm sure - Takeda will prefer to make "Eternal Friendship" agreement with Imagawa as well.
Then poor and wrinkled Lord Imagawa will get two possible course of development - in Kyushu Island vs only opponent, or through Shinano province into north rebel lands or into juicy East provinces.
Then Lord Imagawa needs an excuse for choosing his way. If someone would answer in hostile or impolite manner, Lord Imagawa will understand - where future koku for his troops is raising now ;).
Do you see?

Oh, by the way - do you remember - don't believe to any spoilers, have your own judgement. Any word from Lord of Shogun era must be taken with grain of salt, especially words from "treacherous Imagawa". Gotcha?

[Drisos]

you don't understand real pleasure in playing in MP campaigns

I do have pleasure from them. What means 'the real pleasure' in your opinion? When I get pleasure from a game, I am satisfied, you know. I don't need the 'real pleasure'

OK I don't mind you not accepting those battles. hope we do get in an MP campaign though.

[Wilbo]

Drisos, I have no doubt at all that you gain much enjoyment from multiplayer as you play for the fun of playing.