Army Lists

[RabidGibbon]

Theres been a lot of talk in Tomi Says Code of Honour Thread about using unit max's to balance out gameplay and straightjacket people into picking more balanced/realistic armies.

One possible solution that I believe could work on a small scale is to introduce tabletop wargame style army lists which could be used in tournament games or for the occasional one off.
Of course one problem is that people would have to be made aware of what the lists were before the game started, and it could all get quite complicated.

But anyway, heres a sample army list for discussion purposes:

Key - the first number is the minimum number of units of that type that must be included, the second the maximum. Where a + sign appears there is no maximum on units of that type. Units types in brackets, if taken, must be taken as a replacement for the unit they appear alongside, not as well as.

THE GREEK CITIES (6000-10000 denarii games)

Peaseants: No restricitons
Millita Hoplites: No restrictions
Hoplites: 4+
Armoured Hoplites: 0-6
Spartan Hoplites: 0-2
Peltasts: 2+
Archers: 0-4
Heavy Peltasts: 0-4
Incendary Pigs: 0-1
Greek Cavalry: 0-4
Greek General (or Armoured Gen): 0-1
Millita Cavalry: 0-4
Ballistas: 0-1
Onagers (or Heavy Onagers): 0-1
Rhodian Slingers: 0-2
Cretan Archers: 0-2

[Tomisama]

Not to detract from to what you are proposing. But to offer three other options to think about.

1. Is there any way that things could be done on a denarii level as Cran suggested? But say with three levels of division.

For example (just grabbing at numbers):
500 and over – 2 units
200 to 500 – 4 units
under 200 – 6 units max

2. Or another possibility using troop types (cavalry, infantry, range, and spear). With the percentage of your total chosen, directly proportional to the percentage made available for selection.

For example 50% of the available for selection troops for Parthia are mounted. So you could take a total of 10 mounted units.

3. Now if you combine the two ideas above for a third option. That would mean you could take 4 horse archers, but only 2 of any other mounted unit up to the 10 unit limit for mounted Partians.

I have no idea if this would work across the board for all factions, or if my denarii splits are in the right place (and maybe there should be 4 divisions). But I believe whatever is used must be as simple and universal as possible. Otherwise folks won’t use it except in our special contest.

Keep up the good work

[The Hun]

I see trouble in dictating people what army they use and I think will limit factions to only a few. I see it more important as the way people play and not what they pick. Honourable play means more than choice of units, factions, armies.
CWB was 2 max units I would not want to play like that.

[Crandaeolon]

Tomi, I was thinking of a much simpler rule - for example, 6 max / 750 would mean that you can only select 6 units that cost 750 denarii or more. That could mean either 6 Urbans, or 6 Praetorian cav, or 3 urbs + 3 praet cav etc.

The remaining 14 units in the army would consist of units that cost less than 750 denarii. For example, if the player uses his limit for 6 urbies, he would have to select Roman cavalry instead of Legionary cav or praetorian cav - they both cost over 750.

In effect, it would define a total limit for elite units, but not restrict unit choice in any other way. 750 is a good place to start - it would put a limit on the elite inf and cav, but not limit "mainstay" units such as Legionary Cohorts, Chosen Swordsmen, most phalanxes etc...

Of course there are still problems with this rule - Egypt would still need banning. Britons could still spam with chariots etc...

[Wishazu]

i think standard skirmishers, i.e peltasts, archers and slingers etc. should all come under the same cap, the only 1`s that should be capped are elite, i.e Cretans, Forresters and pharoahs.

[AquaLurker]

Tomi, I was thinking of a much simpler rule - for example, 6 max / 750 would mean that you can only select 6 units that cost 750 denarii or more. That could mean either 6 Urbans, or 6 Praetorian cav, or 3 urbs + 3 praet cav etc.

The remaining 14 units in the army would consist of units that cost less than 750 denarii. For example, if the player uses his limit for 6 urbies, he would have to select Roman cavalry instead of Legionary cav or praetorian cav - they both cost over 750.

In effect, it would define a total limit for elite units, but not restrict unit choice in any other way. 750 is a good place to start - it would put a limit on the elite inf and cav, but not limit "mainstay" units such as Legionary Cohorts, Chosen Swordsmen, most phalanxes etc...

Of course there are still problems with this rule - Egypt would still need banning. Britons could still spam with chariots etc...

I like your idea, however to prevent from spanning 4-6max unit "TYPE"(cav archer etc...) can also be used to prevent players from spaming.

Egypt IMHO should never be banned, but I am more concern about the balancing cav civis cos it would be unfair to force scythians or parthians players to use inf for their armies.

[Craterus]

I tihnk it's unfair on the Parthians and Armenians..
The Scythians have axemen which are a brilliant unit compared to Eastern Infantry and Hilllmen..

[RabidGibbon]

I Admit the 750 Denarii plus max limit is probably a lot more practical than my harebrained schemes. However a cavalry cap (and possibly a missle cap) would in my opnion also be nessecarry (Wish these forums had a spell check).

Having far too much time on my hands I've prepared this list of units over 750 Denarii, so that people who want to consider using these rules can see exactly what they are (and are not) proposing to restrict.

Romans - Prat. Cohort, Urban Cohort, Arcani, All First Cohorts, Leg. Cohort, All Generals, Prat. Cavalry, All Onagers.

Macedon - Companion Cavalry, Armoured General, Heavy Onagers

Eygpt (Boo, Hiss) - Both Generals, Heavy Onagers

Seleucia - Companion Cavalry, Cataphracts, Scythed Chariots, Armoured General, All Elephants.

Carthage - Sacred Band Cavalry, All Generals, All Elephants, Heavy Onagers.

Parthia - Cataphracts, Cata Camels, All Generals, All Elephants, Persian Cavalry.

Pontus - Cappodocian Cavalry, Scythed Chariots, All Generals.

Gaul - Forester Warband, All Warlords.

Germans - Beserkers, Gothic Cavalry, All Warlords.

Brittania - Chariot Warlord

Armenia - Cataphracts, All Generals, Cata Archers

Dacia - All Warlords.

Greece - Spartan Hoplites, Armoured General, Heavy Onagers.

Numidia - All Generals, All Elephants,

Sarmatia - All Warlords. Noble Archers.

Spain - Bull Warriors, All Generals,

Thrace - Bastarnae, All Generals,

And finally I'd like to end what might just be the most boring post the guild has ever seen by addresing the huns concerns:

A) The army lists would only be there for use between consenting adults, I don't won't to dictate how any one should play the game, I just thought some people might like to pick up this ball and run with it.

B) The idea is that each faction would have its own army list, created specifically for it, and so shouldn't limit the number of factions that were playable, but by limiting the stronger factions by cutting down on overpowered units would actually increase the playability of all factions.

[AquaLurker]

This seems fair, maybe we can have something like a troops type cap for each faction on top of it.





inf no restrictions
arty is always 2 max
*ele is always 2 max


all javs skirmers are consider inf
all H.chariots and elephants* are classed cav.
horse archers and archer chariots are classed archers
Jav cavs(...not sure)


Greeks/Macedonians/Pontus/seleucids/egypt/carthage/Armenia

cap 1 general body guard
cap 6 archers
cap 6 calvary


Scythians/parthians

cap 1 general body guard
Cap 8 calvary
Cap 7 archers(horse and foot)

Romans

cap 1 general body guard
cap 6 archers
cap 5 calvary

Numidia/Germainia/Britiania/Gaul/Dacia/Thracia/Spain

Cap 1 general body guard
cap 6 archers
Cap 7 cavalry

[The Hun]

The lists look bad I would not be interested in this it ruins concept of faction uniqueness

[Wishazu]

i think we should put this on hold untill the code is sorted, then maybe we could petition the org to set up a proper ladder, with a couple of the code signee`s as admins. go for a system for ladders like they have at clanbase.com however i dont know how to set this up.

[AquaLurker]

The lists look bad I would not be interested in this it ruins concept of faction uniqueness

I am not so sure about the faction uniqness your are talikng about. Unless you are saying that having an army cosist of all preatorian as cav, all urbans as inf or all spartan, all desert horseman or all cataphracts etc, is the kind of faction uniquness you want to retain, then sorry I can't agree with you.

These limitation and rules actually bring out the uniqness the factions.
I have not seen many players play arab horseman using armenia or un armoured camels? Hills man, desert inf, milita horseman anyone? Where have all the thracian players gone to??? Nubian cav and spears?

We keep on seeing "balance armies" with mostly/all spartans, as their core inf, all preatorian as core cav, all pharoh guards and pharoh archers as the main stay of a balance egyptian army? What about every pikeman from Macedonian is a duh! Royal Pike man??? Best part is that because of these trend, you will also see all chosen swordsmen for the barbs lol. Dosen't bring out much uniqness it is a Dacian or Gaul army. Amernian and pathia looks almost like twins. Pontus and Selecids?

Like RabidGiddon says we do not dictate people to play this way, for me I just hope that people who share similiar views with us would join us in trying out the format, it definately needs testing for us to get it right.

I agree, this is definately the most boring thread in the entire forum where people would just say "to heck with it I am going back for the more popular choices."

[RabidGibbon]

Thanks for the troop type cap input Aqualurker,

What we should be thinking about now is merging the two lists above (750 Denarii troops and the troop types cap) and maybe playtesting them sometime, deliberatley trying to exploit the lists to create the daftest/most unbalanced armies possible so as to find flaws in the lists as they stand.

Would anyone be interested in this kind of project? I can generally be found online around 20:00 GMT (under this username), so if your interested anyone just say hi online, or tell me when and where you can be found through these forums and we'll see what can be done.

PS: I was refering to my hideously dull list of troop types over 750 Denarii when i said this is a boring post, I think the thread itself is quite interesting.

[AquaLurker]

Thanks for the troop type cap input Aqualurker,

What we should be thinking about now is merging the two lists above (750 Denarii troops and the troop types cap) and maybe playtesting them sometime, deliberatley trying to exploit the lists to create the daftest/most unbalanced armies possible so as to find flaws in the lists as they stand.

Would anyone be interested in this kind of project? I can generally be found online around 20:00 GMT (under this username), so if your interested anyone just say hi online, or tell me when and where you can be found through these forums and we'll see what can be done.

PS: I was refering to my hideously dull list of troop types over 750 Denarii when i said this is a boring post, I think the thread itself is quite interesting.

Hey Rabid,

My online nick is WinkyWars, we have met last night (or at least to me it was a night time). I am keen in testing it out, tonight I will be online again as in any other nights. I sincerely hope that those who are interested would join us in this project. Maybe we could feed back our test to others here.

Players who wish to play "historical accurate" online battles with the vanilla version of RTW might just join us.(pray hard)