male=Fitz, female=?

**frogbeastegg** · 04-07-2005, 18:25

Ok, a simple question, but one that's been bugging me for years.

Fitz means 'son of'. It's Norman French. Originally it applied to ligitimate sons as well as bastards, i.e. it had no particular indication of bastard status. FitzWilliam = son of William, no further meaning. Around 1500 it became more common for denoting improtant bastards, e.g. FitzRoi = king's son, very likely a bastard.

So, what would the equivolent 'daughter of' be? In every other language where I've encountered the 'son of' there's also a 'daughter of'. But for this particular case I've never seen it. It'd be useful to know; I've got a character just waiting to be Hawise (female Fitz)Clemont.

**Lord of the Scotts** · 04-07-2005, 18:34

It might be Fitza.

**Aurelian** · 04-07-2005, 19:41

Bitz?

Seriously though, I searched for a bit and couldn't find anything.

I did learn this about the Irish:

Irish names are often proceeded by Mc or Mac (both meaning 'son of'), O (meaning 'of'), Ni or Nic (both meaning 'daughter of').

**Lord of the Scotts** · 04-07-2005, 20:15

Mac and Mc is also Scottish, or is it Galic(Celtic language of Scotland and Ireland)(like my last name)
I say Fritza because a at the end of Romantic languages is a feminine form, like Nin(~)a(daughter) instead of Nin(~)o(son) (spanish)

**Adrian II** · 04-07-2005, 21:09

The Online Etymology Dictionary has this to say:

Anglo-Fr. fitz, from O.Fr. fils, from L. filius ‘son of’, used regularly in official rolls and hence the first element of many modern surnames; in later times used of illegitimate issue of royalty.

Ah, but what about the feminine patronymic marker? Latin sources for the Norman period simply use filia instead of filius, but I have found no vernacular eponym(s).

Vernacular synonyms, yes. As far as I remember from reading sources, the feminine marker would take the form of a vernacular suffix or prefix. In Gaelic for instance, the feminine form of mac was inghean (‘daughter’). Etcetera, etcerate. Please don’t ask me for sources, this is off the top o’ me ‘ead, ma'am.

Edit

Oh, and then there's the genitive of course. For instance: 'Aelwyn, daughter of Richard' (Aelvina filia Ricardis) would become 'Aelwyn Richardes'.

**GoreBag** · 04-07-2005, 21:16

Originally Posted by AdrianII

The [url=http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=fitz&searchmode=none]As far as I remember from reading sources, the feminine marker would take the form of a vernacular suffix or prefix. In Gaelic for instance, the feminine form of mac was inghean (‘daughter’).

The Feminine form of the Gaelic prefix "Mac" is "Nic".

**Hurin_Rules** · 04-07-2005, 21:20

The problem is that fitz is an abbreviation for filius. Medieval scribes used shorthand and abbreviations for many words (heck, when it takes a whole flock of sheep to make one book, you gotta economize). The 't' of fitz stands for the 'li', with the 'z' standing for 'us'. There is really no similar shorthand for the feminine equivalent (filia). I guess you could abbreviate it as 'fita', but the 'a' in this case is not an abbreviation, and I don't know that this was ever done.

So, I don't think there really is an equivalent. It is pretty unique for an abbreviation to be enunciated as a word and then to come into common usage. That's why this is so unusual.

**frogbeastegg** · 04-07-2005, 21:34

Thanks, everyone.

So Fitz is an abbreviation? That I'd not heard before, although I admit most of the source I've seen subscribed to the plain wrong view that Fitz was only ever used by bastards.

Looks like I get to fake history a bit then, since I need some way of doing this kind of surname once in a while. Hmm, which one to use? Fitza or Fita? They both sound alright. Both are nice and easy to spell. No one looks more typo prone than the other. I guess Fita is closer to the reasoning behind Fitz, although Fitza also has reason which sounds good to this linguistically inept frog. I know :tosses a coin: Heads, and so Fita it is

Hawise FitaClement, then. Hmm, looks alright, sounds alright, if you know the Fitz connection it's logical ... yup, it'll do. :goes to edit away all those [ ] placeholders in Hawise's name:

**Adrian II** · 04-07-2005, 21:44

Originally Posted by frogbeastegg

Looks like I get to fake history a bit then (..)

Uhh, well alright then. I just discovered that the Society for Creative Anachronism has some serious looking stuff. I believe you can mail them and ask for their (very stern) advice.

For instance this analysis of the Welsh names occurring on the The Merioneth Lay Subsidy Roll 1292-3 by none other than Tangwystyl verch Morgant Glasvryn (yeah right, she lives in Berkeley):

Bynames Based On Relationship

For the most common type of byname -- one indicating relationship -- the name is set up as follows:

The typical relationship given is to a father (or husband). The mother's name is used very rarely (less than 1% of the time).

The typical relationship words are as follow:

Son – ap or ab; a common convention is to use ap before consonants and ab before vowels, but in this document one scribe used ap all the time and the other ab all the time. Latin filius is also found.

Eynon ap madoc
Groneu ab Eynon
Madoc filius Ithel

Daughter – In this document, Latin filia is the only word found for this, although Welsh verch can be found in documents of a similar period.

E.g.
Generys filia Ioreword

Wife – In this document, Latin uxor is the only word found for this, although the expected Welsh at this time would be wreic.

Eva uxor Ithel
Wladosa uxor Phelipi

After Latin relationship words, the following name is sometimes given a Latin posessive form – usually -I at the end of the name. However many examples are found where the following name is unchanged.

**Big_John** · 04-07-2005, 22:03

make her father a welsh-o-phile and name her hawise verch (or ferch) clement!

i got nothing.

**Adrian II** · 04-07-2005, 22:08

Originally Posted by NeonGod

The Feminine form of the Gaelic prefix "Mac" is "Nic".

Wouldn't that be after 1200 anno Domini? As far as I can tell from their highly intricate discussions, it seems the oldest forms -inghean and -ingen changed into nic around that time. But this stuff is enough to make a grown man dizzy. I cede the floor.

**Hurin_Rules** · 04-07-2005, 22:12

Originally Posted by frogbeastegg

Thanks, everyone.

So Fitz is an abbreviation? That I'd not heard before, although I admit most of the source I've seen subscribed to the plain wrong view that Fitz was only ever used by bastards.

Looks like I get to fake history a bit then, since I need some way of doing this kind of surname once in a while. Hmm, which one to use? Fitza or Fita? They both sound alright. Both are nice and easy to spell. No one looks more typo prone than the other. I guess Fita is closer to the reasoning behind Fitz, although Fitza also has reason which sounds good to this linguistically inept frog. I know :tosses a coin: Heads, and so Fita it is

Hawise FitaClement, then. Hmm, looks alright, sounds alright, if you know the Fitz connection it's logical ... yup, it'll do. :goes to edit away all those [ ] placeholders in Hawise's name:

Yes Froggy, go with Fita if you are going to do it; 'fitza' would make no sense, because that would be an abbreviation for 'filiusa', which is not a real word.

**frogbeastegg** · 04-08-2005, 10:03

Going Welsh would be the easy way out. Pity Wales has been slowly pasted by England for a few generations now, and their Duke of Gwynedd (essentially the Welsh leader) just became the King of England's vassal. No sane English noble is going to allow his little girl to tack a Welsh bit onto her name when he has plans for her, even if she is his bastard and his ambition only stretches to finding her a decent job as a lady’s maid with some noble or other.