male=Fitz, female=?

PC Mode

frogbeastegg 18:25 04-07-2005

Ok, a simple question, but one that's been bugging me for years.

Fitz means 'son of'. It's Norman French. Originally it applied to ligitimate sons as well as bastards, i.e. it had no particular indication of bastard status. FitzWilliam = son of William, no further meaning. Around 1500 it became more common for denoting improtant bastards, e.g. FitzRoi = king's son, very likely a bastard.

So, what would the equivolent 'daughter of' be? In every other language where I've encountered the 'son of' there's also a 'daughter of'. But for this particular case I've never seen it. It'd be useful to know; I've got a character just waiting to be Hawise (female Fitz)Clemont.

Lord of the Scotts 18:34 04-07-2005

It might be Fitza.

Aurelian 19:41 04-07-2005

Bitz?

Seriously though, I searched for a bit and couldn't find anything.

I did learn this about the Irish:

Irish names are often proceeded by Mc or Mac (both meaning 'son of'), O (meaning 'of'), Ni or Nic (both meaning 'daughter of').

Lord of the Scotts 20:15 04-07-2005

Mac and Mc is also Scottish, or is it Galic(Celtic language of Scotland and Ireland)(like my last name)
I say Fritza because a at the end of Romantic languages is a feminine form, like Nin(~)a(daughter) instead of Nin(~)o(son) (spanish)

Adrian II 21:09 04-07-2005

The Online Etymology Dictionary has this to say:

Anglo-Fr. fitz, from O.Fr. fils, from L. filius ‘son of’, used regularly in official rolls and hence the first element of many modern surnames; in later times used of illegitimate issue of royalty.

Ah, but what about the feminine patronymic marker? Latin sources for the Norman period simply use filia instead of filius, but I have found no vernacular eponym(s).

Vernacular synonyms, yes. As far as I remember from reading sources, the feminine marker would take the form of a vernacular suffix or prefix. In Gaelic for instance, the feminine form of mac was inghean (‘daughter’). Etcetera, etcerate. Please don’t ask me for sources, this is off the top o’ me ‘ead, ma'am.

Edit

Oh, and then there's the genitive of course. For instance: 'Aelwyn, daughter of Richard' (Aelvina filia Ricardis) would become 'Aelwyn Richardes'.

GoreBag 21:16 04-07-2005

Originally Posted by AdrianII:
The [url=http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=fitz&searchmode=none]As far as I remember from reading sources, the feminine marker would take the form of a vernacular suffix or prefix. In Gaelic for instance, the feminine form of mac was inghean (‘daughter’).

The Feminine form of the Gaelic prefix "Mac" is "Nic".

Hurin_Rules 21:20 04-07-2005

The problem is that fitz is an abbreviation for filius. Medieval scribes used shorthand and abbreviations for many words (heck, when it takes a whole flock of sheep to make one book, you gotta economize). The 't' of fitz stands for the 'li', with the 'z' standing for 'us'. There is really no similar shorthand for the feminine equivalent (filia). I guess you could abbreviate it as 'fita', but the 'a' in this case is not an abbreviation, and I don't know that this was ever done.

So, I don't think there really is an equivalent. It is pretty unique for an abbreviation to be enunciated as a word and then to come into common usage. That's why this is so unusual.

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