4 What ifs

[Gawain of Orkeny]

1 What if the allies had remained neutral after the invasion of Poland? Woud Germany have turned on Russia and if so what would be the result

2 What if the allies had declared war on Russia instead of Germany?

3 What if the allies had declared war on both ?

4 What if the allies other than Russia of course had listened to Patton and attacked Russia after the defeat of Germany?

[Quietus]

1) Hitler's true goal was Russia in the first place. He simply doesn't want the west to interfere, hence taking them out first.

If the West didn't react then Hitler would have attacked the West nonetheless. Poland was the bufferzone vs. Russia. The idea is not to alarm the USSR, hence the non-aggression pact ( I can't exactly remember when this was signed).

The other three are too extreme to consider. The world was weary of the war. They simply wanted it to end. Hence the atomic bombs, thus Russia wouldn't attack Japan themselves and complicate things up.

[Uesugi Kenshin]

1: Hitler was obsessed with taking down Russia, war with Russia was inevitable as long as he held power.

2: A lot of Jews would have died, Germany would have been able to take down Russia, Germany would have possibly attacked the West afterwards or exspanded further to the East.

3: Russia=Dead Germany=Not quite dead, but likely would have lost.

4: If they beat Russia before they developed the bomb Russia would have fallen, Air Superiority and such would have been their downfall. Russia=Depopulated and non-communist.

[discovery1]

If the West didn't react then Hitler would have attacked the West nonetheless. Poland was the bufferzone vs. Russia. The idea is not to alarm the USSR, hence the non-aggression pact ( I can't exactly remember when this was signed).

Why? Hitler viewed the west as equals more or less. Indeed, din't he think that Gb was a natural ally of the 3rd Reich? And about not alarming the Reds, both knew that a showdown between the two was inevitable. The expansionistic nature of Communism and Hitler's dreams of living space would see to that. Parts of Poland I believe were to serve as a buffer so that the war wouldn't be fought one Russian soil. Not that it helped.

2 What if the allies had declared war on Russia instead of Germany?

Then no way do I see Hitler attacking the west. Ever. He would certainly join them in a Western Crusade against the Reds. The only way I think this could have happened is if the west actually did send troops to Finland(the French did threaten to do this didn't they?)

3 What if the allies had declared war on both ?

I suppose that the Reds and the Germans would have not gone to war with each other as soon. Then again, if the Russians are busy trying to conquer India or the Middle East then I guess Hitler would have na eaier time in Russia.

4 What if the allies other than Russia of course had listened to Patton and attacked Russia after the defeat of Germany?

I don't know. I'm pretty sure russian tanks were better than Western ones. But I think that the western Airforces were stronger. I guess that eventually the Allies win, even if they don't use nukes. America's economy will see to that. But still I don't see communism being slain. I think that the best the west could achieve would be to free the ethic groups in western USSR(Ukrain and Baltic states). Russia proper still red though.

[fret]

Indeed, din't he think that Gb was a natural ally of the 3rd Reich? .

Yes.

He was concerned that should he invade and conquer Britain, he wouldnt be able to cope with the administration of the British Empire.

He wanted to rule the world alongside them, but if they wouldnt accept his terms, he would take them anyway.

Something along those lines.

[English assassin]

4 What if the allies other than Russia of course had listened to Patton and attacked Russia after the defeat of Germany?

Until recently I thought that this could only end one way, namely with the Russians triumphant. I fact I understand that in terms of manpower at least the Russians were at close to full stretch by 1945, so possibly the west would have had a chance to push them back to at least the Polish-Russian border. (which, there or thereabouts, is where any sensible person stops, IMHO.) Certainly as I recall the figures the US (with a bit of help from the other allies) could have out produced even the Russians in terms of materiel.

However I also understand that the US forces in particular absolutely did NOT want to hang around in Europe a moment longer than they had to, and indeed that even demobilising in an orderly way was quite difficult. Therefore I think there would be a very real chance that the soliders would simply have refused to follow Patton et al. (This is not intended as a shot against American troops. They had been out of the States for maybe two years, and the war they signed up to fight was over. Its hardly surprising they wanted to go home. Bear in mind too that they had been told Uncle Joe and Ivan were their staunch allies fighting against Nazism. Quite hard to turn that round to Uncle Joe the enemy of the USA overnight.)

[ShadesPanther]

Hitler didn't want war to start in 1939. IIRC he assured his generals and Admirals the war would begin in 1945 against the western Allies (they were particularly worried about the British navy)

[Franconicus]

1 What if the allies had remained neutral after the invasion of Poland? Woud Germany have turned on Russia and if so what would be the result

2 What if the allies had declared war on Russia instead of Germany?

3 What if the allies had declared war on both ?

4 What if the allies other than Russia of course had listened to Patton and attacked Russia after the defeat of Germany?

1 He would surely have attacked Russia, because this was the central part of his ideology. However, he would also have attacked France. He wanted that because of the Versaille treaty and because he served in France during WW I and was wounded there. France was his "forever" enemy and Russia the future colony.

2 Russia would have broken down w/o the US support and with Japanese troops at his eastern frontier. Communism wouldn't have been an issue any longer, fashism would still be today. Maybe you would even see fashistic systems in the USA and in Britain.

3 In 1940 they would have lost the war. With Germany attacking France and the UK, Russia attacking India and the Japanese attacking far east the USA would have been standing alone very soon. The question is, how long an alliance between Germany, Russia and Japan could have lasted.

4 With the western airpower and the rests of German army, research and production the West might have won.

Result of 1-4: millions of additional victims.

[tibilicus]

Errr wouldnt a load more people be dead? My ansew

[cegorach]

Result of 1-4: millions of additional victims. [/QUOTE]

They died anyway... in communist prisons or in Syberia, maybe try to see it from the point of view of these 150 000 000 people who were living between the 2 mass murderers

[Byzantine Prince]

What if I didn't crap this morning? What then?

[ShadesPanther]

you will die from constipation or maybe you will crap more next time.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

He already craps enough

[Eldin]

4 What if the allies other than Russia of course had listened to Patton and attacked Russia after the defeat of Germany?

This, I'm rather surprised it hasn't surfaced, was indeed one of Churchill's plans (dubbed operation unthinkable, I think). A quick 'blitzkrieg' operation to get the USSR to its knees. As you should all know, this was a silly notion. First and foremost due to the withdrawing of US troops from Europe at the time, secondly due to Churchill not being elected (;)).

Though I think even if an assault had been launched, it would not have been able to dent soviets much. They, at the time had an army of some 10 million soldiers and had a yearly tank production of around 40,000 a year (if memory serves). Combine this with the population's willingness to fight ('patriotic war') of the time, which could have been easily switched to the NEXT agressor, I think the russians would have steamrolled the Allies.

Due to air and naval power difficulties, this advance may have been made harder, but as far as ground equipment is concerned, I fear the USSR had the absolute advantage. It would probably end in an armistice that would have jumpstarted the Cold War, or they would continue fighting until the USA had enough bombs to thorougly nuke the USSR. Either way, it would have been a costly enterprise that I think would not have toppled Stalin's regime. At the time, such a total victory was unthinkable for the Allies. Hence the operation's name I suppose :P

[Gawain of Orkeny]

The Russians couldnt even have beaten Germany alone by itself. All the allies against them would have crushed them. Might have taken another 4 or 5 years though and then there was also the problem that Japan was still fighting at this time.

[Franconicus]

Do not forget that the Soviet army in 1945 was not comparable to the Soviet army in 1941! They had a giant production (not only tanks, also planes). Their army was completly mobile. They had a very good organisation, logistics, experienced generals and soldiers. They had learned a lot about tactics and strategy. They had gernerals that didn't mind heavy losses (unlike the western allies) and soldiers that were willing to die for the country and for Stalin.

Even though the US and GB were famous for their strategic air war, I think the Russian were stronger - though they were focused on tactical air war only. The Germans had lost more planes in the Eastern than in the Western theatre!!

My main argument is still that there would have been millions of vicims. Nobody can decide to start a war that will cause millions of victims. Even if the reasons are noble, in the end your are nothing but a mass murderer. Was anybody really willing to bomb Russian cities with nuke to liberate them from communism?

[Al Khalifah]

and soldiers that were willing to die for the country and for Stalin.

They were willing to fight and likely die because they knew that if they didn't then they would definately die by their own officers' or forced recruiters' hands. The Soviet military dealt ruthlessly with 'unpatriotric deserters from the greater cause.' Although the Soviet propaganda machine wisely kept its troops informed of German attrocities against Soviet prisonners of war and civilians, which would have strengthened the soldiers' resolve.

Had the western powers attacked the Soviet Union after the surrender of Germany, I doubt they would have pushed the Soviets further back than the German border with Poland before having to push for peace or use the nuclear option. While this would have liberated East Germany and avoided some of the more dangerous exchanges over Berlin it would have given the Cold War much more potential to boil over as there would be many soldiers and officers on both sides who would have seen men die at the other sides hands. A few twitchy trigger fingers and the Cold War could have got very hot indeed with nuclear weapons.

Was anybody really willing to bomb Russian cities with nuke to liberate them from communism?

No, although the Western powers probably would have done so under that justification while the actual reason was to reduce the superior production capacity of the Soviet Union. Prior to the Cuban Missile Crisis there was quite a strong opinion in the American military and even in the Cabinet that a pre-emptive strike against the Soviet Union was in their best interest because the Soviets didn't have a sufficient quality of suitable delivery systems to perform an effective counter strike against America by that point. It probably would've been justified as liberating the Russian people from Communism (by killing them). Sort of like the current administration justifies eroding the freedoms inherent in western democracies in the name of preserving those very freedoms.

[Franconicus]

They were willing to fight and likely die because they knew that if they didn't then they would definately die by their own officers' or forced recruiters' hands.

That is right. But do not underestimate their will do fight and suffer for their country. They had seen what the Germans did after they had attackes the USSR without a cause. Look at the Partisans that were fighting against the Germans outside the area that was controlled by the Kremlin. Do not forget the influence of propaganda. If the west would have attacked there would have been millions who would have given their lifes to save Russia against the invators. Even those who hated communism.

No, although the Western powers probably would have done so under that justification while the actual reason was to reduce the superior production capacity of the Soviet Union. Prior to the Cuban Missile Crisis there was quite a strong opinion in the American military and even in the Cabinet that a pre-emptive strike against the Soviet Union was in their best interest because the Soviets didn't have a sufficient quality of suitable delivery systems to perform an effective counter strike against America by that point. It probably would've been justified as liberating the Russian people from Communism (by killing them). Sort of like the current administration justifies eroding the freedoms inherent in western democracies in the name of preserving those very freedoms.

That makes me shiver!