Shogun's response to patch campaign

[aphex]

...and weren't they still releasing patches to HalfLife1 SIX YEARS after its release?!!?

[screwtype]

Valve, for one. So far they've released at least two dozen patches since HL2 release. Not game-stopping bugs, as I never had any noticable problems; just tweaking and working out any bugs the community brings up. Hell, today they released a patch that fixed ONE problem - in Counterstrike: Source sometimes people's names would come up as duplicates in the game list.... nothing important really - but it was fixed within 3 days of it being apparent it was there.

Wow. Now that's what I call a patch policy!

Valve have obviously realized the benefits to be had from responding quickly to customer concerns. No crap about "it's got to be extensively tested by QA" - QA which turns out to be next to useless anyhow. Just patch it, put it out, and let the community find the next issue for you.

Yes, as you say, this is the right kind of policy for gaming in the 21st century. Most other companies - CA and Activision included - are still behaving as though the internet had never been invented.

[HarunTaiwan]

Hey, please folks go read reviews for other products.

You'll find them interesting indeed.

I've seen high star reviews for products that were broken, but the after sales service was so good, the reviewer did not feel bad at all.

Just imagine if Microsoft only allowed one patch to Windows. I guess we'd all be giving XP 4 stars even while the hackers and viruses are burning through minor exploits? NO. Even though the program "deserves" more than One Star.

Besides, anyone who reads the reviews will be much better informed about the product now. That is completely fair. I am also willing to edit my review upward later on if I decide it was too harsh.

and by the way, who's to say my review is too low, or too high, etc.? It's my opinion...and everyone's entitled to one of those!

[Cendre]

Ever heard the say the customer is always right? Well CA hasn't obviously...
I think the Amazon reviews reflect perfectly the state of the game, it was originally at 4.5 with lots of great reviews, it is now at 3.5 with mitigated reviews saying it could be a great game if they fixed it. And that reflects exactly how I feel about the game, when I started playing it I loved every bit of it but when I became more proficient in it I found the AI too flawed to take any enjoyment out of beating it, so I've now shelved the game until there is an XP fixing AI...
- Future customers are better off for those reviews as they can decide for themselves whether it's worth buying the game at this stage (unfortunately there wasn't such reviews when I bought it).
- Existing customers are better off as I believe CA is now well aware of the problems and would not release an XP that would not fix them
- CA is whinging at the moment but they will be better off in the long term when they realise QA is important, support is important and maintaining a recurrent client base is paramount to the long term future of a company.

[Puzz3D]

Existing customers are better off as I believe CA is now well aware of the problems and would not release an XP that would not fix them

CA has trouble just making the game so it doesn't CTD. Gameplay issues are lower on the scale of what's important. You're dealing with a company that doesn't see the loadgame issue as a problem. They actually believe that designing a strategy game in such a way that the AI needs two turns to re-establish it's strategy after loading a savegame is ok. They also think that the AI is good, so there isn't much chance of the add-on having a significantly better AI.

[Mouzafphaerre]

-

Ever heard the say the customer is always right?

That essentially was my point.
-

[.Spartan]

Well I am currently laying the foundation for an organized global boycott of the X-Pack. The main thread is at the TWC. If any poster here wants to become point of contact for .org regarding this effort please contact me. I am also working on a list of international media groups as well as game industry related companies. I will make a banner soon for people to put in their signatures with a link back to the very long bug/issues list.

-Spartan

[mishad]

Harun: Actually, for the casual gamer, which is probably the majority of players of RTW, they wouldn't notice the scar problem, since they do not delve that deeply into the game to even check for general's bonuses.

Actually, I know a couple of casual gamers who certainly did notice the extreme scarring of Roman generals (which is the result of the combination of 3 bugs in vanilla 1.2 -- double traits for manual combat, double scarring chance for Romans and incorrect scarring trigger thresholds -- all now fixed by the community but not by CA).

They noticed despite not looking at the generals traits etc. in detail, because the game drew their attention to it by giving most of their generals scarring-related nicknames. Since this was clearly different to the 1.1 behaviour, it stood out a mile.

Of course, once they noticed, they paid more attention to the traits (and then also noticed that the combat traits were being accumulated much quicker than before). And were annoyed, because while many combat traits give bonuses (those from winning, at least -- and who gets any other sort after their first "try it out" campaign?), some of them have negative effects.

Luckily, I was able to provide the community patch for that problem (leaving only the "do I start a new campaign or keep these horribly scarred generals?" question).

Finding out about the load-game AI re-assessment wasn't much of a problem for them. One had already returned to MTW (NTW, actually) -- despite the, by comparison with RTW, terrible graphics. The other had decided TW games were just too boring before they even found out about the siege problem.

Actually, both tend to be 1-2 turns per session players, so both had been hit by the load-game re-assessment -- and once it was explained they said "yeah, I've seen that happen". But even without knowing the details of the issue, they had decided they'd had enough.

[Turbo]

Complain? yes, campagning to damage the company economically? hardly

Accept it, there won't be another patch whatever you do and the reason is simple: Activision can't win anything with it. Total War is now - since CA belongs to Sega now - a dead end for Activision. Why should they support it any further? CA and Activision are competitors now, they will fulfill existing contracts and nothing more.

It isn't exactly fair that you ban discussion of that campaign yet you continue to refer to it in a dark light. There is another side to this story, one that can't get posted here because of the rulings of various moderators on the ORG.

You also neglect to mention that Creative Assembly can issue a developers patch anytime they want at their cost. Activision will only fund 2 patches.

[Kraxis]

It isn't exactly fair that you ban discussion of that campaign yet you continue to refer to it in a dark light.

To CA it is quite dark, so it is their right to do so. To them it is in fact people going out of their way to hurt the company. I don't know about you but that is pretty dark. Fair has nothing to do with it.
Just because Saddam has no way to speak about it, doesn't make it unfair of us to claim that he was a rather dictatorial leader right? Just putting a light on it.
It is all about how the action has an impact on you, and the impact is very different for you and CA.

[player1]

You also neglect to mention that Creative Assembly can issue a developers patch anytime they want at their cost. Activision will only fund 2 patches.

You expect from them to do this for their own money, which would delay, or make more buggy expansion they are working on, while Activison would get all money from sold copies, not CA.

Developer patches are very rare thing. Only big companies have maony and staff for them.

[Satyr]

With the sales that CA have gotten of RTW they ARE a big developer now and should be patching the game. They have to fix these issues for the XP anyway so at some point they should release a patch. If they do it right they will sell way more XPs anyway so in reality they can count on future sales to fund this round of patches. If they continue along their current path and don't provide a patch well that will affect their future sales too, although not in a good way. It's up to them what they want their future to look like!

[Old Celt]

I agree, Satyr.

The bottom line of all this is that CA controls their own destiny. If they act to make happy customers, they will reap those rewards with the X pack. If they continue to stonewall, they will reap something different. Whether there is a "campaign" against them or not, is irrelevant. They have the means and the motive to make this go either way, and only CA has that power.

[AussieGiant]

And it is posts like this that really irk me. Even if this were true (and calling it sabotage and blackmail is not accurate) if the campaign worked we should all be happy. Those of us dense enough to still have an interest in the game would benefit from a proper patch. The irritation should be with the developer, not the consumer.

Having read this post a comment comes to mind.

The first is regarding the good point by Red Harvest;

any action taken by a group of consumers to spread negative or lower values on review sites or magazines is perfectly legal and CA should realise that political lobbying is conducted this way daily in the halls of power throughout the world.

Going head to head with people on this topic is dangerous only because when you "ignore or deal badly with a vocal minority” then you are running the risk of paying a price. That is what defines consumer power. If any one is unsure then the Americans on this board can attest to the effectiveness of “lobby groups” on their political system as example "A" of this concept.

If CA wish to conduct themselves in the manner they choose through their representatives on the official message board then they better hope they don’t annoy a member of the public that is motivated and has plenty of cash or has connections.

For example I could be the Marketing Director of FIFA.

FIFA just signed a huge deal with Sony…who make play stations…which platform does Sega make the most running on?? Who owns CA now?

All of a sudden it becomes very relevant and what I have found is that you never know what is around the corner in big business. Now of course I am nothing of what I mentioned above, but my final point is…if anyone feels motivated enough to organise themselves to conduct a campaign like the one mentioned over the last month…then good luck to them.

And to be perfectly honest. If CA doesn`t like it then stiff shiet!! I hope they get nailed in the Xpack sales.

[AussieGiant]

And something that is really bothering me is a major aspect of this "feature" and how it is initiated.

What seems to be missed by CA is, we are talking about SAVING and LOADING a file!!!

Now if saving and loading files was a "New" piece of functionality in applications then I might see their point.

Given Saving and Loading could easily be argued in a tribunal hearing as "Critical Application Functionality" in any piece of software made in the last 15 years, then the attitude is a little baffling.

Let me give you an example.

While saving or loading a word document, you lose all your spelling and grammar corrections from the last save.

Now while it is not a show stoppper, it is pretty god damn fundamental to the correct running of the application. You could just write the whole document out correctly the first time and then the problem doesn`t exist. However you are writing a thesis...then what do you do?? More importantly, saving and loading word documents has been a "Must Have" piece of funtionality since its creation. This is the same with any application that must provide continuity to be an affective program. Obivously games...AND especially strategy games fall within this category.

It is not a perfect analogy but it is pretty god damn good if I do say so myself. How CA can say that the Saving and Loading of a game should, or is designed to affect the application so drastically and so obviously is nearly indefensible!!!

[Old Celt]

How CA can say that the Saving and Loading of a game should, or is designed to affect the application so drastically and so obviously is nearly indefensible!!!

It's totally indefensible. Someone severely screwed the pooch on this one, and they all know it. Since they've been discovered, there have been the tactics of obfuscation (it's not a bug, it's WAD) and silence in the hopes of waiting the storm out.

I think there has been a gross underestimation of the average intelligence of RTW fans. They are smarter than many, and will not accept Dog and Pony shows to answer questions, nor will they advance challenges without proof and verifiable test cases. The very presence of the Ludus Magna here is testament to that.

[Shambles]

I say give every 1 the game for free it aint worth the money i had to pay for it,
So Every 1 els should get it for free,

Just so they can See what a load of junk it really is,
Doubt it would even break any copy right's either becous every 1 would probably just uninstall any way,

[AussieGiant]

It's totally indefensible. Someone severely screwed the pooch on this one, and they all know it. Since they've been discovered, there have been the tactics of obfuscation (it's not a bug, it's WAD) and silence in the hopes of waiting the storm out.

I think there has been a gross underestimation of the average intelligence of RTW fans. They are smarter than many, and will not accept Dog and Pony shows to answer questions, nor will they advance challenges without proof and verifiable test cases. The very presence of the Ludus Magna here is testament to that.

I think you are dead right Old Celt. In a certain way their own initial genius could very well bite them on the ass big time. They have clearly attracted a section of highly motivated, very well educated and connected individuals. Those individuals could represent 10s of thousands.

And I tell you one thing...disseminating information in this day and age is as easy as ever!! They seem to think the internet doesn`t exist or something.

Just think of the "Lurking" numbers on the 3 main boards combined...that is a lot of people just reading a watching.

[Slyspy]

I would like to point out that a number of those issues listed also cropped up in the previous Total War games (suicidal generals and pathfinding being two of them). Some were fixed then, some were not. Either way CA were incompetent enough to either fail yet again to fix them or let them slip anew into RTW. Shoddy. I shall not buy the expansion, though I may reinstall Shogun after uninstalling RTW.

[.Spartan]

@Aussie - that is why they have gone and banned anyone that shows any faltering in the "party line" at the .com. If you think otherwise just put: "-Spartan" in your signature on any post at the .com and see if you account still works a day later.



Sadly for them I was the wrong person to piss-off. Hell I wish for them to send me a threat as I will tell them what to do with it and publish it in this community as well as many others. I have money as well as business contacts and I never back down from anything.

-Spartan

[AussieGiant]

@Aussie - that is why they have gone and banned anyone that shows any faltering in the "party line" at the .com. If you think otherwise just put: "-Spartan" in your signature on any post at the .com and see if you account still works a day later.



Sadly for them I was the wrong person to piss-off. Hell I wish for them to send me a threat as I will tell them what to do with it and publish it in this community as well as many others. I have money as well as business contacts and I never back down from anything.

-Spartan

@Spartan

You are literally my example in point. I decided not to join the circus over at the .Com coming here was a no brainer in the end.

By banning can`t they see the damage they are doing. The whole thing has been handled badly and what they really need is a PR company to come in and repair the damage, put communications back on the agenda and get things sorted out before someone like yourself goes "nuclear" on their asses.

Having said that, there is nothing like learning from your mistakes. As you have mentioned you are connected, have money and are motivated. Us mature types are the ones they seem to think don`t exist.

Isn`t it just a laugh, just how geeky some of us turn out to be. Their own brilliance has attracted people they have simply no idea about.

Good luck and I hope you get some bang for your buck.

[A.Saturnus]

For example I could be the Marketing Director of FIFA.

FIFA just signed a huge deal with Sony…who make play stations…which platform does Sega make the most running on?? Who owns CA now?

If the fact that you get pissed off by what a developer of CA says to you on a public forum affects your economical decisions, then you probably wouldn't be marketing director of anything very long.

CA will probably not take any legal steps against anyone campagning against them, but it is only natural that they call them saboteurs and don't welcome them on their forum.
CA can do on their forum whatever they want, if you don't like it, don't go there.

It would be Activision's responsibility to finance another patch, but it is obvious that they won't do that. CA is bound by contracts that dictate where they have to put their resources. I assume they could make a developers' patch, but whether it's worth it is a difficult economical question nobody of us can answer.
Sega could finance a patch too, but it might be difficult to explain to their investors why they are paying for a product of a competitor.

I think there has been a gross underestimation of the average intelligence of RTW fans. They are smarter than many, and will not accept Dog and Pony shows to answer questions, nor will they advance challenges without proof and verifiable test cases. The very presence of the Ludus Magna here is testament to that.

Actually, the Ludus Magna has not reached a conclusion on how severe the problem actually is yet.

[Old Celt]

Quote:
I think there has been a gross underestimation of the average intelligence of RTW fans. They are smarter than many, and will not accept Dog and Pony shows to answer questions, nor will they advance challenges without proof and verifiable test cases. The very presence of the Ludus Magna here is testament to that.



"Actually, the Ludus Magna has not reached a conclusion on how severe the problem actually is yet." - A. Saturnus

Point taken, sir, but what I was alluding to was that no other site actually generates quantifiable results and offers real evidence the way the community members of this site do when the occasion calls for it.

My personal opinion is: If you play only 1 or 2 turns per session and save, the level of AI performance is comparable to playing chess against your toaster.

[AussieGiant]

A.Saturnus,

You are absolutely correct. It seems clear the contractual obligations in place means there is no real direction for any of the groups to logically pursue. CA hands are tied for all intense and purposes and that is the end of the topic in all reality and was the case many moons ago. It is my hope that these contractual problems have been ironed out in the new agreement between CA and Sega with regards to the future.

Their handling of the situation is what I am specifically referring to.
------------------------------------------------------------------
"If the fact that you get pissed off by what a developer of CA says to you on a public forum affects your economical decisions, then you probably wouldn't be marketing director of anything very long.

CA will probably not take any legal steps against anyone campagning against them, but it is only natural that they call them saboteurs and don't welcome them on their forum.
CA can do on their forum whatever they want, if you don't like it, don't go there."
------------------------------------------------------------------
This comment seems to a be a bit out of kilter with the rest of your post.

I`m not "pissed off" as you describe. He (The CA rep) didn`t speak to me specifically as I am not a member of the forum over there. As for alluding to my future employment, then you are speaking of things beyond what you are aware of. Surely you can see that. For one you are assuming my example is the 100% the truth.

What is 100% true is the deal between Sony and FIFA and the relationship is now a signed deal.

Given how things change, I`m simply pointing out that deals and pressure can be exerted in a variety of ways in international business and what is totally beyond CA`s control is who ends up playing this game and who these people are in "Real" life. By conducting themselves the way they are then ignoring this possibility is at their own peril. This is sound advise and something I have experienced on more than one occasion.

Of course CA does not sponsor a Board for the sole purpose of hearing complaints. But if handled correctly it is an asset, not a excersice in banning and sensoring. Surely you can see the difference between the way yourself and other Mod here handle things and what is happening over there.

That is what is mind blowing to me A.Saturnus

[A.Saturnus]

I`m not "pissed off" as you describe. He (The CA rep) didn`t speak to me specifically as I am not a member of the forum over there. As for alluding to my future employment, then you are speaking of things beyond what you are aware of. Surely you can see that. For one you are assuming my example is the 100% the truth.

What is 100% true is the deal between Sony and FIFA and the relationship is now a signed deal.

Given how things change, I`m simply pointing out that deals and pressure can be exerted in a variety of ways in international business and what is totally beyond CA`s control is who ends up playing this game and who these people are in "Real" life. By conducting themselves the way they are then ignoring this possibility is at their own peril. This is sound advise and something I have experienced on more than one occasion.

I think what I wanted to say didn't come over very well. I didn't assume that you're pissed or that you're actually a marketing director. I wanted to say that whoever is marketing director of FIFA, whatever a dev says to him hardly will affect his managment decisions. The contract between FIFA and Sony is surely worth many many millions of dollars. Irritable marketing directors are expandable in the light of that.

Of course CA does not sponsor a Board for the sole purpose of hearing complaints. But if handled correctly it is an asset, not a excersice in banning and sensoring. Surely you can see the difference between the way yourself and other Mod here handle things and what is happening over there.

To be honest, I don't follow very closely what happens on the Com. If they are really trying to quelsh complains, even those that are brought forward in a civil manner, then that is of course wrong.

[AussieGiant]

Ok no problem about the interpretation of what has been written between us.

I also assume the contract is worth a whole lot of cash. In my experience you never know if someone in a position like that may in fact be an avid gamer in their private life and think it is worth asking the question regarding patching or on going support to the Sony GM. That leads to a query to Sega and there you have a very strong link. That one conversation could do more than years of lobbying.

Then if I think of the aggressive marketing types, then it is entirely possible that some marketing director/maniac could make it a social topic at any or all board room meetings. You just never know A.Saturnus.

It is a chance...but certainly possible.

I think following the .COM board is probably bad for your health, so that is sound advise.

Have a good day.

[Red Harvest]

The 1.0 scores were pre-determined. The review itself was an afterthought. Hence, it is bogus and fraudulent. The intent and goal of the "campaign" was to lower the score all along (hence sabotage), with people at another forum saying we won't stop until the game is patched (hence blackmail).

If you don't want me to call it blackmail and sabotage then don't do it, simple as that. ( I know my vocabulary, if you don't, then use a dictionary).

Under the amazing scale of RTW as 1.0 star,

* = RTW
**= ???
***= ???
**** = ????
***** = ???

then it follows that there are 5-star games that are 5-times better than RTW. You would be hardpressed to find games that are 2 times better than it, much less 5-times.

Perhaps you should try reading that dictionary some time because your vocabulary doesn't match the definitions. Sabotage is not used as an implement of improving something...it is used to destroy or otherwise hamper an organization. It's specific root is the use of the worker's wooden shoe, "sabot," to destroy manufacturing equipment in the early industrial age.

Blackmail also carries the connotation of extracting something undeserved from someone else with no benefit to the victim. A campaign to get a patch would hardly fit that criteria, since proper patching and support is of benefit to both parties. However, there is also the defined aspect of exposing some serious embarrassment or improper behaviour or criminal act of the victim--something unflattering that the victim wants to be kept secret. So you can take half credit and a very Pyrrhic victory since you and CA don't want CA's questionable support or the actual state of the game exposed to the general public.

Funny that you are trying to quantify the scale to suit your own needs. If you want to use a relative scale, then anything better than it would drop it from 5 star, making all the 5 star ratings bogus. As I said, I would have given it a 3, but I saw enouth BS 5 star ratings, that I added "weighting" to my score, much as many of the 5 stars seem to have done in the other direction. It is called "fighting fire with fire." There is nothing to prevent others from going in and putting in 5 star rankings... And many of the ratings on Amazon are 2 or 3 star, rather than 1. Your perspective is porked.

POWER TO THE CONSUMER!

[screwtype]

My personal opinion is: If you play only 1 or 2 turns per session and save, the level of AI performance is comparable to playing chess against your toaster.

I think too much is made of this loadgame bug, mainly because I consider the performance of the campaign AI to be approximately at the level of my toaster anyhow!

[Old Celt]

But it would be at the level of a GOOD toaster, not just a basic bargain toaster!

[Catiline]

the rebel AI is the bargain toaster - pops up at random all over the place