Shogun's response to patch campaign

[red comyn]

To put a slight (lmao) tilt on this, you have the same right to customer service with this product as any other.

Lets take a car for a bigger example. You buy one it dives, but the handling is very poor as the suspension is missing, it wont do over 20 miles an hour, the electric windows dont work and the engine cuts out sometimes.

You take it back but it comes back now does 30 suspension is there so handels better but electric windows now go up and down everytime you turn it on engine still cuts out.

So you take it back again and are told by the dealership that they have a strict one go at fixing it policy as anything else would impact on there profits, but if you wait for them to develop a new engine they will let you buy one from them, which should also fix the windows.


Ok bit big, cars cost lots more than RTW so lets go for a television, cheap on from one of those 24hr tescos. So you get it home just in time to watch corrie. But it switches itself off only half the channnels work, and youve got to rest all the channels. So it goes back to the maker, it comes back its on all the time, but youve still got to reset all the channels and some still dont work, but there is a note saying that this is a feature of the televisonnot a problem so ther not going to fix it.

Now everytime you try and ring there call center they tell you your not allowed to discuss the matter as it might make them look bad and bar your number so you cant call back.

Im sure we could come up with relevent examples, phones for instance and the recenly withdeawn sony eriksson k700i for instance, or any other product you care to mention. I know these are extreme examples but seams to be what CA are telling us, and as a consumer you wouldnt stand for it with any other product, just because this one cost you less dosnt mean it shouldnt do what it is ment to.

[ElmarkOFear]

Harun: Actually, for the casual gamer, which is probably the majority of players of RTW, they wouldn't notice the scar problem, since they do not delve that deeply into the game to even check for general's bonuses.

I know when I first started playing Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri game, I played it as a casual gamer to start out and enjoyed it very much. I put it away, and several months later, I broke the game out and actually decided to take a lot of time to learn its nuances. My enjoyment increased and I found out I had missed out on a great many things which I never noticed when playing it casually.

This is more than likely the cause of the big difference of opinion between the groups. What you hardcore players take for granted as obvious, is not obvious to casual gamers and not a big deal for them since they enjoy the game for other reasons.

I understand your frustration. I have had 5 years of the same for the MP side of the game. But I realize that RTW MP is more enjoyable for the casual gamer (which the game is targeted for), and not as popular with the hardcore MP community. I resigned myself to waiting for an MP-focused TW game. Until then I will wait to purchase another TW game.

[mishad]

Harun: Actually, for the casual gamer, which is probably the majority of players of RTW, they wouldn't notice the scar problem, since they do not delve that deeply into the game to even check for general's bonuses.

Actually, I know a couple of casual gamers who certainly did notice the extreme scarring of Roman generals (which is the result of the combination of 3 bugs in vanilla 1.2 -- double traits for manual combat, double scarring chance for Romans and incorrect scarring trigger thresholds -- all now fixed by the community but not by CA).

They noticed despite not looking at the generals traits etc. in detail, because the game drew their attention to it by giving most of their generals scarring-related nicknames. Since this was clearly different to the 1.1 behaviour, it stood out a mile.

Of course, once they noticed, they paid more attention to the traits (and then also noticed that the combat traits were being accumulated much quicker than before). And were annoyed, because while many combat traits give bonuses (those from winning, at least -- and who gets any other sort after their first "try it out" campaign?), some of them have negative effects.

Luckily, I was able to provide the community patch for that problem (leaving only the "do I start a new campaign or keep these horribly scarred generals?" question).

Finding out about the load-game AI re-assessment wasn't much of a problem for them. One had already returned to MTW (NTW, actually) -- despite the, by comparison with RTW, terrible graphics. The other had decided TW games were just too boring before they even found out about the siege problem.

Actually, both tend to be 1-2 turns per session players, so both had been hit by the load-game re-assessment -- and once it was explained they said "yeah, I've seen that happen". But even without knowing the details of the issue, they had decided they'd had enough.

[ShellShock]

To put a slight (lmao) tilt on this, you have the same right to customer service with this product as any other.

Lets take a car for a bigger example. You buy one it dives, but the handling is very poor as the suspension is missing, it wont do over 20 miles an hour, the electric windows dont work and the engine cuts out sometimes.

You take it back but it comes back now does 30 suspension is there so handels better but electric windows now go up and down everytime you turn it on engine still cuts out.

So you take it back again and are told by the dealership that they have a strict one go at fixing it policy as anything else would impact on there profits, but if you wait for them to develop a new engine they will let you buy one from them, which should also fix the windows.

...some more examples

Before we install the game we have to agree to an EULA that absolves Activision and CA of any responsibility. I think this is legally how they (any many other software companies) protect themselves - we the poor consumer have to agree to put up with any defects, or we have the choice of not installing the software, and presumably getting our money back (although I don't know if anyone has ever tried this after they have taken the CD out of the packaging).

Also the analogy with other products is not as straightforwards, as there are different degrees of fault. CA have said that the load siege bug is a design feature. We can imagine a car having many such "design features" that we do not like, but you would not be able to get the manufacturer to change them under warranty.

[red comyn]

Also the analogy with other products is not as straightforwards, as there are different degrees of fault. CA have said that the load siege bug is a design feature. We can imagine a car having many such "design features" that we do not like, but you would not be able to get the manufacturer to change them under warranty.

yes there may be many things that niggle about something that we may have liked done slightly differant, but what im saying is that if something else in another product affected it performance/usfulness as much as the A.I. stopping everything and restarting everytime you reload does then you wouldnt let the manafactuer/supplier just fob you off by telling you it was ment to be like that, so why should we here?

[Old Celt]

yes there may be many things that niggle about something that we may have liked done slightly differant, but what im saying is that if something else in another product affected it performance/usfulness as much as the A.I. stopping everything and restarting everytime you reload does then you wouldnt let the manafactuer/supplier just fob you off by telling you it was ment to be like that, so why should we here?

You shouldn't. To be quite objective about it, The Shogun's statement never actually uses the word "feature". He rather refers to the AI behavior as "reassessment" several times. My position is that if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, calling it a turkey doesn't make it not a duck.

But whatever you call it, we are right to speak up if we believe it hurts the quality of the game. I think there is a severe disconnect on that point. CA doesn't seem to understand that software performance which may not strictly fall into the definition of "bug" is still quite actionable if the public perceives it as a problem or undesireable.

[Bel]

Especially when a feature like Load Game does not actually load the game you left but instead ruins the game you left...

[ShellShock]

The usefulness of analogies is limited. Sometimes a thing is simply itself, and not like anything else.

I have another analogy for you.

I buy a DVD of a movie that has received good reviews. When I get it home I find that the disk is scratched and won't play, so I take it back to the shop and they are happy to give me a replacement.

However, once I get it home again and start watching the film, I begin to have doubts. There are some continuity problems that I can put up with - after all most people would not notice them, but the lead actor's supposed English accent is appalling; but he does make the most of his part, so I grudgingly accept that.

However, when the hero and the love interest finally get into space on their rocket ship...ohmigod what is this - the space ship is whizzing around like an aeroplane, and there is an almighty, thunderous explosion when they blow up the alien mothership. This is too much, totally unrealistic and I start an email campaign demanding the studio release a director's cut that is scientifically accurate.

Is this analogy any more helpful?

I often think so-called software engineering is much more an art than a science; the most fun I get out of programming for a living is when I can be creative. As an art, should we not compare software to other arts, and not harder disciplines? In many aspects, a large software game is created in a similar way to a movie, with visuals, audio, motion, animation, branding and marketing.

[Bel]

The usefulness of analogies is limited. Sometimes a thing is simply itself, and not like anything else.

I have another analogy for you.

I buy a DVD of a movie that has received good reviews. When I get it home I find that the disk is scratched and won't play, so I take it back to the shop and they are happy to give me a replacement.

However, once I get it home again and start watching the film, I begin to have doubts. There are some continuity problems that I can put up with - after all most people would not notice them, but the lead actor's supposed English accent is appalling; but he does make the most of his part, so I grudgingly accept that.

However, when the hero and the love interest finally get into space on their rocket ship...ohmigod what is this - the space ship is whizzing around like an aeroplane, and there is an almighty, thunderous explosion when they blow up the alien mothership. This is too much, totally unrealistic and I start an email campaign demanding the studio release a director's cut that is scientifically accurate.

Is this analogy any more helpful?

I often think so-called software engineering is much more an art than a science; the most fun I get out of programming for a living is when I can be creative. As an art, should we not compare software to other arts, and not harder disciplines? In many aspects, a large software game is created in a similar way to a movie, with visuals, audio, motion, animation, branding and marketing.

So, by your analogy there is no minimum acceptable standard of functional software? If Quicken did your books and got all your numbers wrong? If all your tetris pieces dropped through the floor making the game unplayable? An MMO that doesn't go online?

No, I do not consider this "Art". I spend good hard earned money for software to utilize the purpose of that software. I've read page 7 of the manual and it quite clearly states I can "load a previously saved game." However, in my previously saved game my sieges would not break off (I believe proven through numerous imperical data but I will concede the Shogun's philosophical argument that I cannot deductively know this, inductively it is quite clear however,) after a load the sieges break. It is not the same game. Thus I am mislead about a key function of this game putting its very playability into question

[Old Celt]

So, by your analogy there is no minimum acceptable standard of functional software? If Quicken did your books and got all your numbers wrong? If all your tetris pieces dropped through the floor making the game unplayable? An MMO that doesn't go online?

No, I do not consider this "Art". I spend good hard earned money for software to utilize the purpose of that software. I've read page 7 of the manual and it quite clearly states I can "load a previously saved game." However, in my previously saved game my sieges would not break off (I believe proven through numerous imperical data but I will concede the Shogun's philosophical argument that I cannot deductively know this, inductively it is quite clear however,) after a load the sieges break. It is not the same game. Thus I am mislead about a key function of this game putting its very playability into question

Well said, Bel!!

[aphex]

Hmmm... I think gameplay may have a more direct parallel with art.
And I guess speccing, measuring and testing it is an artform ;)

[ShellShock]

So, by your analogy there is no minimum acceptable standard of functional software? If Quicken did your books and got all your numbers wrong? If all your tetris pieces dropped through the floor making the game unplayable? An MMO that doesn't go online?

No, I do not consider this "Art". I spend good hard earned money for software to utilize the purpose of that software. I've read page 7 of the manual and it quite clearly states I can "load a previously saved game." However, in my previously saved game my sieges would not break off (I believe proven through numerous imperical data but I will concede the Shogun's philosophical argument that I cannot deductively know this, inductively it is quite clear however,) after a load the sieges break. It is not the same game. Thus I am mislead about a key function of this game putting its very playability into question

There is also a "SOFTWARE LICENSE AGREEMENT" on page 79 of the manual, which (if you can read the very small print, which I have trouble doing) limits the warranty to replacing the recording medium.

I sincerely wish that this wasn't the case, and that CA would see the light and issue a patch to fix this bug/feature/reassessment; I'm trying to point out that comparing RTW to other products does not necessarily add any weight to our case. IMHO, your analogies to Quicken, tetris and MMO are more extreme than the the RTW load bug, but this is purely a subjective judgement. For some people the load bug makes RTW unplayable, for others it does not. In your analogies the relevant software is unusable/unplayable for everyone.

Even in this situation, a license agreement such as the one that comes with RTW would probably protect the software supplier from having to do anything about the bug. Undoubtedly a spreadsheet that could not do it sums would not sell; but how much do we/CA/SEGA think TotalWar sales will be affected now and in the future by the lack of support? I suspect not very much, as the vast majority of buyers never visit forums like this, and would never realise that there was a bug that needed fixing in the first place.

[Bhruic]

There is also a "SOFTWARE LICENSE AGREEMENT" on page 79 of the manual, which (if you can read the very small print, which I have trouble doing) limits the warranty to replacing the recording medium.

You're talking about the legality of the situation, when I believe the rest of us are talking about the ethics of it. If it were legal to hang a dog by its neck and beat it with a stick, I don't think that would make it ethical.

In the same vein, the fact that legally speak, CA and Activision aren't required to support RTW doesn't make that the ethical choice. I think many of us would prefer to deal with a company that displayed ethics, when it comes to situations such as this.

Bh

[red comyn]

For some people the load bug makes RTW unplayable, for others it does not. In your analogies the relevant software is unusable/unplayable for everyone.

but how much do we/CA/SEGA think TotalWar sales will be affected now and in the future by the lack of support? I suspect not very much, as the vast majority of buyers never visit forums like this, and would never realise that there was a bug that needed fixing in the first place.

1. How can you class a bug (lets call a spade a spade) which changes the very nature of a game as anything other than unplayabe, it takes the difficulty out of the whole game. If every time you loaded the game it put 1,000,000 in your bank then would it ruin the aspect of developing your economy? of course it would, so how soes this differ?


2. This will be of course why people are taking other more extrene measures.