The Japanese Pacific Strategy (Warning: WW2 Thread)

[PanzerJaeger]

Im not very knowledgable about the pacific war but Japanese strategy against the US has always baffled me, unlike the German strategies.

First of all they attacked and sank the pacific fleet, yet did not take over hawaii. It seems so risky to me to attack a nation as big as the US on an offshore base with no hopes of actually subdueing the country. It would be like Britain bombing Fairfield in hopes that the US would simply decide not to fight. Very risky if not rather stupid, no?

They failed repeatedly in the few offensives they launched - midway, marianas turkey shoot, guadalcanal - but what was the point? They didnt appear to have a sustained strategy, striking at islands seemingly at random. (again, im no expert, im sure they had some value) Was it really worth getting into such a costly engagement over midway?

And after midway and the other serious defeats, they seemed to have no strategy at all. "Lets leave our troops on these islands to die with no support, and mabey the americans will get tired of taking them."

What?

It seems to me that they lacked a "plan B" throughout the whole war. They relied on extremely risky guesstimations, especially regarding the americans. And when "plan A" failed, it seems they simply dug in and waited to die...

Now im sure they werent as stupid as ive made them out to be. Could anyone shed some light on the Japanese way of war and how they hoped to win against america after their Pearl Harbor/quick surrender hopes didnt pan out?

[ShadesPanther]

The plan wasn't to conquer America. They planned to take over South East asia with the lovely oil and raw materials which Japan didn't have on their island or Manchuria. If they invaded the US would intervene so they planned to destroy the whole of the American fleet so they could invade and America would have to surrender (or the Japanese could fortify their positions when the Americans had rebuilt).

The japanese didn't destroy the Carriers and didn't destroy the fuel depots at Pearl Harbour, as well as the Americans rebuilding the fleet faster than they thought they could.

[Big King Sanctaphrax]

The main problem with the Japanese strategy to my mind, was actually starting the war. I really can't see how the could have won. There was no way they could invade the mainland USA, and once the USA got its maufacturing up to strength, it was game over. Plus, by opening the war in the manner that they did, they got US public opinion fired up to such an extent that a settlement in which Japan was granted a sphere of infulence ove the pacific was all but impossible.

[nokhor]

from what i've read, the japanese believed that war with america was inevitable unless they pulled out of china which the japanese were not prepared to do. so the idea was to gobble as much of the pacific rim as they could while the west was focused on europe. it was basically the same strategy that had gained them success in WWI.

since the western powers were weak in the pacific, the idea was to quickly defeat the weak british, dutch, and american forces and then use the resources from s. east asia to build up entreched fortifications throughout the pacific islands for the next 2-3 years while the western forces rebuilt their navies. by that time though. the japanese would be so entrenched that to kick them out would cost so many casualties that the populations of the western democracies would not be willing to stomach. leading to a stalemate and ceasefire.

2 of their main miscalculations were, 1) how quickly the americans would be able to recuperate and 2) the strategy necessary [the sneak attack] to gain the tactical victory at pearl harbor hurt them much more in the grand strategic scale by making the american population willing to accept enormous casualties for victory.

[IrishMike]

Japan's whole starting mindset was to strike America hard. So hard that it would either force a treaty of non-aggression or to set America far back so that by the time its pacific strength was back up to pre Pearl Harbor, Japan would be strong enough to put up an actual fight. Neither of these possiblities happened due to Japan missing the whole targets of Pearl Harbor, the Carriers. America's whole naval power was the carriers, victory of defeat depended on them, much like the navy today, they were able to carry the biggest attacking power. Much of the other ships, such as battleship row, were a little outdated and America didn't really depend on its battleships for absolute vicotry in the Pacific.

Another very important point to understanding Pearl Harbor is that the Japanese didn't understand America. They thought that, like Hitler, America would lay down and die. They believed we had no moral, warrior tradition, and that our indulgence and wealth had made us weak, a point the marines that fought in the pacific proved wrong, they honestly thought that we would just surender after the attack. Also things might have been different if the declaration of war was delivered by the Japanese on time, but it wasn't, so Pearl Harbor was percived as a surprise attack, when it was meant to be a very well cordinated strike after the declaration of war.

Midway on the other hand was both a blunder for the Japanese as much as it was a brilliant hunt by the US carriers. There was quite alot of hunting down of their carriers, and on paper the Japanese should have won. Just America was more determined and had better position, and surprise, the Japanese had no ideal America would be there waiting to strike.

[CBR]

They didnt plan to make Midway costly for themselves

The point of attacking Midway was to force the US into a battle where they could kill the few remaining US carriers. Unfortunately for them they thought there would be only 2 carriers and not 3 and was so certain of victory they took some risks that cost them the battle and 4 carriers.

Taking Hawaii was definitely a good strategy but they simply didnt have the logistics to do it. It would require lots of troops as well as supply ships and they needed those for the other campaigns.

But yes they didnt really have a plan B. They achieved most of their objectives but USA just wouldnt give up and they hoped that USA would take so heavy losses taking it all back, that USA would be willing to negotiate.

There was really nothing they could have done as the differences in economy was huge and Japan was totally outproduced.


CBR

[PanzerJaeger]

Ok - i suppose i was right.

A more interesting question might be- Would the US have gone to war over China? (I dont think the US would have with the isolationist mentality) If not, then the Japanese never needed to attack America anyway.

I guess the lesson is to know your enemy. They didnt know America was willing to fight and they didnt know America probably wasnt willing to fight over China.


Also, any Pacific buffs want to explain the Great Marianas Turkey Shoot? This air battle has always been strange to me as i thought the Japanese had excellent pilots and the Zero was still formidible by that time. Werent the US using F4s, or were F6s involved aswell?

[CBR]

AFAIK Japan was getting strangled by the US oil embargo so if Japan didnt want to stop the war in China they had to grab the oil fields from the Dutch colonies and USA would most likely not allow that.


The Great Marianas Turkey Shoot was called that for a reason heh. The US had F6 Hellcats at that time yes. By then the Japanese had also lost most of their experienced pilots and was outnumbered too IIRC. It was fought in June 1944.

http://www.cannon-lexington.com/Page...ey%20Shoot.htm


CBR

[Drag0nUL]

First of all, Japan didn't want a large scale war in the Pacific.They were pushed into it by the U.S. who conditioned lifting the oil embargo by withdrawal from China. So Japan was left with 2 choices: becone a second grade power, or go to war. For anyone with some knowledge of Japanese code of honor and stuff the choice they would make was evident.
Secondly, the Japanese made no illusion they could totally defeat the U.S. Their operational plan in the Pacific was to occupy as many islands as possible in the South and Central area and create a defensive ring around Japan. They thought that, after some failed(and costly) attempts to breach it, the americans would be willing to negotiate peace on Japan's terms.
The Pearl Harbor operation was in fact a safety measure, to make sure the Pacific fleet would not interfere with Japanese landings in the Philipines.
The battle of Midway was in fact a very close affair(much closer than it looks). The decisive blow against the Japanese carriers was delivered by american dive bombers, which, after a long fruitless search, located their enemies just as they were launching what was meant to be the doom of the american fleet(an 104 aircraft strike force). Had the american bombers arrived about 10 minutes later, they would have probably lost the battle: the Japanese aircraft would have already left for their target and the damage to the japanese carriers would have been much less substantial(most of the damage was not done by the american bombs, but from their own planes with ammo and fuel blowing up).
As for the naval battles after Midway, Japanese were crippled by the lack of radar(which the Americans began to use to its full extent both for warning against air attacks and for artillery fire) and by the fact that, not planning a long war, they had organised no way of preparing replacement pilots for their airforce).

[Mouzafphaerre]

-
They broadcast a documentary on NGC about Midway, history + underwater archeology mixed. They still show it from time to time and I've watched it a few times. In addition to what have been already stated, the Japanese fleet had no camouglage. One of the American bombers noticed the Japanese aircraft from the vigorously shining sun symbol painted all over the deck. (The pilot told himself in the programme.)

So, I conclude a clash between modern "technological" warfare and "outdated" code of honour. The Japans seem to have had no chance at all.
-

[Drag0nUL]

-
They broadcast a documentary on NGC about Midway, history + underwater archeology mixed. They still show it from time to time and I've watched it a few times. In addition to what have been already stated, the Japanese fleet had no camouglage. One of the American bombers noticed the Japanese aircraft from the vigorously shining sun symbol painted all over the deck. (The pilot told himself in the programme.)

So, I conclude a clash between modern "technological" warfare and "outdated" code of honour. The Japans seem to have had no chance at all.
-

I assume you mean aircraft carriers.Indeed they had the rising sun painted on the deck but I was unaware this was an issue. I find it hard to imagine how you could camouflage an aircraft carrier in the open sea. They are a bit too big for that. And one more thing: I don't recall if this is also the case(and am too lazy to bring a book) but in most situations the pilots didn't spot the actual ships first, but the traces they left in the open sea.
On the other hand, i recall having read statements of the pilots who took part in the battle and many of them were impressed by the huge sun simbol on the Japanese flight deck.

[nokhor]

the japanese could not continue the war in china without economic war materials that japan did not have. because of japanese aggression in china, the americans who had been the supplier of a significant amout of japanese materials, had begun placing tighter and tighter embargoes on the japanese. the best place for japan to get those materials after the embargoes took place were in indochina and the pacific rim.

a couple of things about the marianas turkey shoot. the zero was probably one of the best planes at the beginning of the war but near the end it was approaching obsolescence because of the belief in cultural superiority, the japnese high command disregarded the idea that their opponents could 'tech up' their planes to the level of the zero and by the time they realized their mistake they didn't have the resources left to fix it. japan was one of the few major powers that was basically using the same planes, tanks and other enigines throughout the war unlike say the americans or germans who were continously upgrading. also if i remember correctly, japanese fighter planes weren't armored unlike their counterparts because it was felt that that would dull the martial vigour of the pilots. and to add on to what a previous poster said about the japanese losing their best pilots, the americans would rotate their aces back to train fresh pilots while the japanese aces stayed on the front until they died. so any new skills and techniques that gave them an edge was unlikely to make it into the next batch of recruits.

[CBR]

Well actually Japan did produce some great fighters after the Zero but it was simply too little too late. But yes the Zero was used throughout the war (although in improved versions of course)

Here is a link on the differences in economy between Japan and USA (dont worry its not that boring)

http://www.combinedfleet.com/economic.htm

And here is a link about the problems if trying to do an invasion of Hawaii after a victory at Midway as well as right after Pearl Harbor.

http://www.combinedfleet.com/pearlops.htm


CBR

[Gregoshi]

What I continually find amazing is how short a period of time the Japanese were successful at their military operations. After about 6 months of initial success in the first half of 1942, they lost any advantage they had and began a long slow slide to defeat. Compare this to the Germans who enjoyed about 3 years of success before the balance tipped against them. To their credit, the Japanese did manage to make the most of their short-lived advantage in the opening days of the Pacific war. They struck out in every direction...which may have been to their disadvantage - fighting a multiple front war.

[Mouzafphaerre]

-
Still talking based on the TV documentary, the American carriers' decks were more or less camouflaged (as far as possible) making use of the colour and light etc. The Japanese ones were almost designed to "shine", on the contrary.
-

[Gregoshi]

Regarding the camouflage, I know some US battleships toyed with it as well as some German ships. I also recall seeing a picture of a carrier deck painted to look like a battleship from above. I can't recall the nationality of the carrier but my gut tells me it was a Japanese carrier later in the war. Perhaps this camo didn't hide the ships, but it may have made identification more difficult - which was especially crucial for carriers.

[Drag0nUL]

the zero was probably one of the best planes at the beginning of the war but near the end it was approaching obsolescence because of the belief in cultural superiority, the japnese high command disregarded the idea that their opponents could 'tech up' their planes to the level of the zero and by the time they realized their mistake they didn't have the resources left to fix it. japan was one of the few major powers that was basically using the same planes, tanks and other enigines throughout the war unlike say the americans or germans who were continously upgrading. also if i remember correctly, japanese fighter planes weren't armored unlike their counterparts because it was felt that that would dull the martial vigour of the pilots. and to add on to what a previous poster said about the japanese losing their best pilots, the americans would rotate their aces back to train fresh pilots while the japanese aces stayed on the front until they died. so any new skills and techniques that gave them an edge was unlikely to make it into the next batch of recruits.

In fact the Japanese didn't feel so self-assured about their technology. If they didn't upgrade the Zero, it was because they couldn't. If you look at the most widely spread WW2 fighters(Spitfire and Me-109) you will see that the most upgrades regarded the engine(Me-109 E had about 1000 hp in 1940, while Me-109 G/K had almost double in 1944/45) and this is where the Japanese industry showed it's limits: they were unable to produce powerful airplane engines.And Japanese airplanes weren't armored mostly because they would become too heavy and cumbersome for the avilable engines.
And one last thing: americans catching up to the Japanese in fighter planes technology was another consequence of the battle of Midway: during a diversion in the Aleutines a Zero landed on an american airfield because of bad weather, offering valuable material to U.S. design bureaus.

[Sjakihata]

Did you guys know that the Japanese used midget submarines in the attack of pearl harbour? And an american ship spotted a submarine, before the battle of PH and actually sank it, so the first shot of PH was by the americans, so the actually strated, I never knew that. I just dont understand why the warnings didnt get through to the top - someone must've screwed up.

[Gregoshi]

More on camouflage...


USS Yorktown with camouflage Measure 33, design 10a. No deck camo - this camo must be for subs and surface ships.

USS Hornet

Here is the "battleship" paint scheme I refered to above: IJN Zuiho

[Gregoshi]

Did you guys know that the Japanese used midget submarines in the attack of pearl harbour? And an american ship spotted a submarine, before the battle of PH and actually sank it...

Yes, and recently they found that midget sub on the ocean floor with a neat round shell hole in its conning tower. The History Channel or Discovery had a documentary about the search and discovery of the sub. Fascinating stuff.

[Drag0nUL]

Did you guys know that the Japanese used midget submarines in the attack of pearl harbour? And an american ship spotted a submarine, before the battle of PH and actually sank it, so the first shot of PH was by the americans, so the actually strated, I never knew that. I just dont understand why the warnings didnt get through to the top - someone must've screwed up.

I knew that.As far as I know the contact report of one of the midgets was somehow modified(or the commander of the destroyer sent it incomplete), reaching the fleet HQ somewhere along the lines:'Launched depth charges at unidentified target'.Of course the guys at the HQ asked for details.And by the time they got it, there was too late.
But there had been another chance to sound the alarm, much more obvious.A radar station detected the Japanese air armada around 90 miles of Oahu.The 2 operators reported it,but the officer on duty, not wanting to disturb his superiors(it was early Sunday morning) ensured them that there was just a group of B-17's who were due to arrive from California, though these were supposed to be around 12 and come from a completely different direction.

[PanzerJaeger]

Thanks for that link about production CBR.. Might have helped the Japanese if they had had them.

Also, learning that the Marianas Turkey Shoot was in '44 makes things alot easier to understand.


If im not mistaken the japanese had great airplanes throughout the war, but didnt produce them in good numbers at all. Heres a good site i found..

http://www.pilotfriend.com/photo_alb...raft_frame.htm

[Tribesman]

One of the American bombers noticed the Japanese aircraft from the vigorously shining sun symbol painted all over the deck.
That was for recognition purposes , a ship can be spotted fairly easily from the air , postive identifcation is a lot harder , German ships had yellow or red tops to their turrets to prevent friendly attacks , neutral ships would have both the top surface and the ships sides painted . The practice continues today with the bright colours displayed on the upper surfaces of vehicles in the Gulf War .

[Longshanks]

Also, any Pacific buffs want to explain the Great Marianas Turkey Shoot? This air battle has always been strange to me as i thought the Japanese had excellent pilots and the Zero was still formidible by that time. Werent the US using F4s, or were F6s involved aswell?

The Imperial Japanese Navy once fielded some of the best, if not the best pilots in the world. By the summer of '44 those days were long over. Most of their experienced pilots had been killed at Midway and during the battles for air supremacy over the Solomons in 1942 and 1943. Besides most of the Japanese pilots thrown at the Americans in the Marianas being green they were also poorly trained. Japan was having real trouble replacing casualties and the flight training for pilots was a lot shorter than it had been during the early days of the war.

[Mouzafphaerre]

-
About the camouflage (thanks Tribes), Greg's post reminded me of Admiral Scheer. Have any of you guys read the great Krancke & Brennecke book (The Pocket Battleship)?

Yes, midget submarines were on the TV show.
-

[Drag0nUL]

One of the American bombers noticed the Japanese aircraft from the vigorously shining sun symbol painted all over the deck.
That was for recognition purposes , a ship can be spotted fairly easily from the air , postive identifcation is a lot harder , German ships had yellow or red tops to their turrets to prevent friendly attacks , neutral ships would have both the top surface and the ships sides painted . The practice continues today with the bright colours displayed on the upper surfaces of vehicles in the Gulf War .

You are right. Identifiying a ship from the air in the heat of battle is no easy task, esp. for unexperienced pilots(there have been some cases of friendly fire-IIRC the Lexington was almost hit by land-based aircraft in the aftermath of Pearl Harbour).Just as a side note(a funny thing): during the battle of the Corral Sea, a japanese recon aircraft,spotting the olier Neosho and the destroyer Sims reported he has 'positively identified' an aircraft carrier and a battleship.
As for the turkey shoot, the F6F was not superior to the Zero, the pilots were.An important role was also played by radar.When the americans attacked, the japanese spotted them only at visual range(15-20 km), therefore having very little time to react.The americans on the other hand, spotted japanese strike forces on the radar over 100 km away, put any avilable plane in the air, cleared the flight deck, placed all the escorts betwwen the carrier and the attackin force, and usually won.On the escort issue, american AA guns and fire control were far superior(and numerous) to their Japanese counterparts.(look here http://www.navweaps.com/index_tech/tech-049.htm if you are interested in some tehcnical details)

[English assassin]

The main problem with the Japanese strategy to my mind, was actually starting the war. I really can't see how the could have won

What I continually find amazing is how short a period of time the Japanese were successful at their military operations. After about 6 months of initial success in the first half of 1942, they lost any advantage they had and began a long slow slide to defeat

Well, thats one score for the armchair generals ;-) , this from Wikipedia:

Yamamoto did not soften his logical anti-conflict stance when Japan signed the Tripartite Pact with Germany and Italy in September 1940. Yamamoto warned Premier Konoe Fumimaro not to consider war with the United States: "If I am told to fight... I shall run wild for the first six months... but I have utterly no confidence for the second or third year."

IIRC the USA had a GDP ten times that of Japan, and then you have to consider Japan's vulnerable geographic position as an island with a large population and very few resources.

Still, for all that it must have been impossible for the USA to lose, its a thought that they could have lost Midway perfectly easily (it seems to me to be mostly luck it went one way not the other, IIRC it was the unintentional complete failure of low level torpedo bomber attacks that drew off the japanese fighter cover and allowed a dive bomber attack arriving, more or less by chance almost immediately afterwards, free shots at the Japanese carriers. That could easily have gone another way couldn't it, if the dive bombers had failed and the counterattack that was being armed at that very moment had beenn launched. You must have had to have nerves of steel to be a carrier commander in WW2)

[Harald Den BlåToth]

I think they weren't prepared for a war in the middle of the 20th century...
Strategy...What strategy could emerge from a nation wich embraces "real politik" with an army with medieval mentality?
It's like having a modern cruiser outfitted with culverines...

[Spino]

Even if the US lost most of the major battles in the Pacific through mid-1943 the outcome of the war with Japan was never in question. After the bombing of Pearl Harbor and the subsequent declaration of war from Nazi Germany the US was out for blood and was backed by a ridiculously powerful industry to give its thirst for vengeance the means to express itself.

Now about the battle of Midway...

Camoflage played little to no part in the battle of Midway and had little effect on most of the naval engagements of the war, especially the mid-later years. Camoflage, per the use of those fancy angluar paint schemes on the sides of warships, was meant to fool enemy ships and submarines into making erroneous judgments regarding their actual size, class and course. Not to say that naval camoflage was completely useless but it really was a solution for a bygone era dominated by naval gunnery. Superior optics, aerial reconnaissance and especially radar with its long range, relatively hard to fool detection methods made camoflage obsolete and most navies abandoned its usage as the war progressed.

Ships, especially large capital ships, are easily spotted from the air by their obvious size and wakes. The presence of numerous smaller support vessels such as cruisers and destroyers also gives an aerial observer a clue as to the size, nature and value of the larger ship(s). This is not to say aerial observers didn't make false ID calls when spotting enemy fleets. When viewed from a considerable distance aircraft carriers were often confused with large tankers or other support vessels of comparable size and shape. For those American pilots to spot the 'red meatballs' painted on the flight decks of the Japanese carriers tells me they were close enough to make a fairly accurate ID call regardless of whether they saw the 'meatballs' or not.

Even though the Americans knew the Japanese were going to attack Midway the battle could have been much closer and could have easily gone the other way. Most historians love to overlook a few simple facts which helped contribute to the scale of the US victory...

1) The two most modern and effective Japanese carriers, the Zuikaku and Shokaku, were scheduled to participate in the Midway campaign but were unavailable due to battle damage (Shokaku) and air crew losses (Zuikaku) sustained at the battle of Coral Sea.

2) On the morning of the initial attack on Midway all but one Japanese observation plane took off on time for its reconnaissance patrol. That particular float plane took off from its cruiser roughly 20 minutes later than scheduled thanks to technical problems with the catapault. Guess which reconnaissance plane spotted the American fleet too late for Admiral Nagumo to properly react? Had Nagumo been given that information in a timely fashion he would have never ordered a second strike on Midway and instead would have had ample time to follow through with a massive strike against the American carriers. But, as luck would have it he was given news of the location of the US fleet while his carriers were in the middle of re-arming for a second strike against Midway. His carriers were not only found but caught with their pants down when the Americans attacked.

3) The initial American strike on the Japanese carriers was an unofficial disaster until three squadrons of SBD Dauntless dive bombers arrived on the scene. Three TBD Devastator torpedo squadrons (as in ALL available torpedo squadrons from all three American carriers) were virtually annihiliated by Japanese fighters and anti-aircraft fire and their F4F Wildcat fighter escorts fared no better. Even the Devastators that somehow managed to get through the fighters and flak and drop their torpedoes had no effect due to misses or duds. Early war US torpedoes were notorious for their high dud rate and the US Navy's early war 'aerial' torpedo was no exception. It was so unreliable and finicky with regard to proper airspeed and drop altitude that many either traveled too low beneath a target ship's hull or didn't explode at all. They were that bad! Those three SBD squadrons that eventually arrived were on their way back from a fruitless search for the Japanese fleet and literally stumbled upon a destroyer that was rejoining the main fleet after chasing an American submarine. The dive bombers then followed the destroyer back to the main fleet and the rest is history. Furthermore those three squadrons of Dauntless dive bombers were so low on fuel that after the attack many were unable to make it back to their carriers and had to ditch in the sea. Just imagine if they never found the Japanese fleet! Any subsequent attacks from the American carriers would have probably been too little too late.

Basically Midway was a much closer affair than most people think. An overwhelming Japanese victory at Midway might have affected the outcome of the war in the Pacific by prolonging it for another 6 months or so but not much else. By mid-late 1944 the US had an obscene number of fleet and escort carriers, far more than the Japanese could handle!

[PanzerJaeger]

Great info, thanks Spino!

Do you think the movie was accurate to the story, i remember it had some of the elements you speak of but its been so long since i saw it...