Cossacks and Cossacks2

[Mount Suribachi]

Was just browsing through PC Gamer this morning and came across a Demo for Cossacks2. Now I never played the original cossacks and I'm wondering if I missed out on a good game.

The review of Cossacks2 said that it cut down on the resource management of the original, which was a good thing. Now I agree. So was Cossacks just another resource gathering RTS click-fest, or is there more too it than that?

Sadly my current PC won't handle Cossacks2, but there was a copy of the original game for a princely £6 in the supermarket. Is it worth getting for someone like me who loves TW style strategy gaming, or is it just C&C meets Napolean?

Thanks

[Browning]

Was just browsing through PC Gamer this morning and came across a Demo for Cossacks2. Now I never played the original cossacks and I'm wondering if I missed out on a good game.

The review of Cossacks2 said that it cut down on the resource management of the original, which was a good thing. Now I agree. So was Cossacks just another resource gathering RTS click-fest, or is there more too it than that?

Sadly my current PC won't handle Cossacks2, but there was a copy of the original game for a princely £6 in the supermarket. Is it worth getting for someone like me who loves TW style strategy gaming, or is it just C&C meets Napolean?

Thanks

I think it is just C&C meets Napoleon, IMHO (I played Cossacks: Back To War). It is not bad, it is very pretty and fun at the beginning, but it gets repetitive after a while - well, I played SP only, where the strategy for every nation looks the same: who gathers gazillions of gold fast enough to build a fleet of Lineships first, he wins. The built-in differences between nations were close to invisible to me, other than in graphics.

You may try a demo version and see if you like it.

[lars573]

Cossacks 1 is a little more than a standard RTS click fest. Most RTS games don't require you to have an army of 2000 men, formed into units of 120 or 90 to compete with the AI. Most RTS games don't need you to have food in your resource pile to pay up keep on your units, so that they won't drop dead (litterally). Most RTS games if you run out of gold your army and navy won't mutiny. In Cossacks 1 all these things happen. The game has a global population of 8000 units, that is 8000 men can be on screen at once. Of the games 6 resources (food, wood, stone, gold, metal, coal) only 2 are gathered in a standard RTS way, you build a drop off point and you send your peasants to gather them. Food you get from farms that re-plant themselfs automatically. The other 3 come from mines that you build on a gold/metal/coal patch on the map. That are stocked with peasants to mine them. But if you had to call it CnC meets something, CnC meets Gustav-Adolf or Frederick the great would be more apt. i have some screens of a skirmish game I had with men as the Polish, an AI buddy as the Ukrainians vs the Swedes.

My Polish army right wing


Polish right wing


The Swedes


Ukrainian allies


Swedes march to war (under bombarment from my cannons)


My winged hussars clean up what left of the Swedes after a nice shooting match/melee

Also don't get the original Cossacks game get the stand alone second x-pack Art of War. They made many improvements with the 2 x-packs.

[Browning]

Wow, that are nice screenies. Was it in MP?

In SP, all I needed to keep any hard opponent at the bay was 10 cannons on each frontier. Of course, this requires a healthy economy.

[Drisos]

I have Cossacks: European Wars and Cossacks: The Art of War.

Especially The art of war is a great game, even in SP, i lately played it again for a few days.

I prefer STW, but that's not working at the moment. . .

[Randal]

It's a fun game, not much like C&C, not much like Total War either. It's more of an Age of Empires clone, but on a larger scale. I didn't buy it when it came out, but nowadays you can get a copy for a few bucks, which is worth it. It does get a bit repetitive, especially compared to Total War games, but it's a nice diversion. And winged hussars are very cool.

Browning: Do you have the Art of War expansion? The expansion restricts cannons to 5 per artillery depot. Which won't stop you from building a lot if you really want to, but with the exponentially increasing costs for extra depots, that's tougher than it seems. The expansion also has the option to disable cannons altogether, which sometimes makes for more interesting gameplay in my opinion, as the cannon are a bit powerful in the basic game.

[lars573]

Wow, that are nice screenies. Was it in MP?

In SP, all I needed to keep any hard opponent at the bay was 10 cannons on each frontier. Of course, this requires a healthy economy.

No that was with the AI. If you have 1 hour of peace time you get a good sized army thrown your way when it's over.

[Drisos]

Age of Empires

that's a nice game too!

[Mouzafphaerre]

-
I have Cossacks: EW and liked it. It's more fun than any C&C or AoE lookalike. However, it's extremely hard and resource management had a great share in that!

In 2 they decreased RM, added a TW-like turn-based strategic level, but unfortunately took out good stuff too (like ships/naval warfare, except in missions iirc). Also, judging from early screenies, they are just too Aladdinish with the historical value of the graphics, especially about the Oriental factions/places.

When I have a new puter, I may consider ebaying a copy.
-

[TheSilverKnight]

where did you find the demo? I did a search and I can't find it

[Efrem]

Cossacks 2 is on sale in perth, haven't checked in local stores now I'm back in sydney, but it should be here, and I shoudl be getting it.

[doc_bean]

There is a Cossacks2 demo available for download now.

[doc_bean]

It doesn't seem to work on my PC, it asked me to alter something in my bios, but it still doesn't work after I did that

[TheSilverKnight]

There is a Cossacks2 demo available for download now.

Where did you download the demo?

[Efrem]

www.wargamer.com follow the links.

[Aurelian]

I liked the original Cossacks for the theme and the units. A lot of creativity went into those areas of the game. Building graphics were also interesting.

Unfortunately, most of the game was a resource rush, and all the factions behaved very similarly in terms of build strategies.

I did like the way that Cossacks allowed you to group individuals into units with officers. Unfortunately, the whole process was cumbersome. The game could have allowed you to assign an officer to a building (or vice versa) and had units automatically join his unit. Instead, you had to micromanage your troops into a convenient field and put everyone together manually.

AI was also a bit weak, particularly in the historical scenarios. With a bit of scouting, you could always maneuver your force completely around an enemy 'ambush' or position without the enemy reacting in the slightest to your maneuvers. Very scripted action.

I'm not sure if any of the sequels dealt with these issues.

While I had fun with Cossacks when it came out, it really was just a resource management game. Perhaps Cossacks 2 might be better if it took off some of that load and introduced other game play elements.

I will say that playing Ukrainians and Poles was good fun just for the unit choices.

[Efrem]

I liked the original Cossacks for the theme and the units. A lot of creativity went into those areas of the game. Building graphics were also interesting.

Unfortunately, most of the game was a resource rush, and all the factions behaved very similarly in terms of build strategies.

I did like the way that Cossacks allowed you to group individuals into units with officers. Unfortunately, the whole process was cumbersome. The game could have allowed you to assign an officer to a building (or vice versa) and had units automatically join his unit. Instead, you had to micromanage your troops into a convenient field and put everyone together manually.

AI was also a bit weak, particularly in the historical scenarios. With a bit of scouting, you could always maneuver your force completely around an enemy 'ambush' or position without the enemy reacting in the slightest to your maneuvers. Very scripted action.

I'm not sure if any of the sequels dealt with these issues.

While I had fun with Cossacks when it came out, it really was just a resource management game. Perhaps Cossacks 2 might be better if it took off some of that load and introduced other game play elements.

I will say that playing Ukrainians and Poles was good fun just for the unit choices.

I have Cossacks 2 and so far am really enjoying it. A totally tactical experience. For me the only improvement would be a limit to a certian amount of units. I haven't given the campaign a go yet.

[TheSilverKnight]

I have Cossacks 2 and so far am really enjoying it. A totally tactical experience. For me the only improvement would be a limit to a certian amount of units. I haven't given the campaign a go yet.

Is there a Waterloo historical battle, Efrem?
and what about the skirmish maps? Are they any good?

[Efrem]

There probably is, I'll look for you.

I am really enjoying the skirmish maps but I keep losing.


I guess making 100 Green Coats early on wasn't such a great idea :( Didn't have any coal left for them to shoot the french who eventually overcame me after a couple of really exciting battles.

[lars573]

There probably is, I'll look for you.

I am really enjoying the skirmish maps but I keep losing.


I guess making 100 Green Coats early on wasn't such a great idea :( Didn't have any coal left for them to shoot the french who eventually overcame me after a couple of really exciting battles.

That's your problem your trying to use the skirmisher wrong. You keep about 2-4 companies of them on your armies wings to snipe out anyone that comes close enough. What you should have done is built about 480 musketeers, and deployed them in 2 lines. I've only got the demo and I leanred that right quick like. In Cossacks 2 (hence forth refered to as C2) there are 5 infantry types in 2 classes. The first class is plain combat troops, they consist of line infantry, light infantry, and heavy infantry. Most nations (save Egypt) line infantry are called Musketteers or Fusileers, European heavy infantry are called grenediers, light infantry are unigue to each nation and are called different by different names, Highlanders, Voltigeurs, black corps, boardsman. Grenediers have average shot power (100) and high melee (20). Line troops have average shot power (100) and average melee (10). Light infantry has higher shot power (130) and low melee (5). Also melee defense and morale stats are modified by experience. For example a french fusilier battalion with 100 XP has a melee attack of 10+5 and a defense of 0+5, with morale about doubled. The second class of infantry are specialists, combat engineers and skirmishers. They come in a much smaller unit size than combat troops, 120 for combat and 15 for specialists. Skirmishers have the highest ranged attack for infantry (200) but the same melee stats as light infantry (5). They also don't get tired moving over land, when not on roads regular troops get tired and when the fatigue reaches 0 then it starts eating morale. Also skirmisher are lightning fast for foot troops. Combat engineers strength isn't in combat but in building defenses, block houses and towers, plus they can plant bombs on enemy buildings. Another thing they can do is build any kind of build 2x faster than a peasant but they can't start them.

[Efrem]

Well now I feel even more like an idiot.

[lars573]

Well now I feel even more like an idiot.

Don't feel bad, now you know. So you can improve your game and start winning skirmishes.

[Devastatin Dave]

I got the demo, but it lags and is practically unplayable...

[Big_John]

I got the demo, but it lags and is practically unplayable...

what are your pc specs? it runs just fine on my pc, which is no beast (by todays standards anyway).

[Kraxis]

Could we see some real screenshots (not like those staged ones we get at official sources), I take it those lars presented are from Cossacks 1.

[econ21]

Interesting insight into the game, Lars573. Would you say the battles in Cossacks 2 have a historical flavour? The run down of infantry and tactics that you give makes it sound not far from the mark, whereas the stats from Imperial Glory in another thread sounded so absurd I lost all interest in the game. Do the battles "feel" like historical Napoleonic battles? Or are they gamey or, as Aurelian suggested, dominated by a resource rush?

I'm not looking for a hardcore historical wargame but something that captures some of the flavour of combat in the period - like Panzer General or, in a non-historical context, Dawn of War (which is an RTS but the combat is not too far from the source miniature wargame).

Thanks for any advice!

[lars573]

Could we see some real screenshots (not like those staged ones we get at official sources), I take it those lars presented are from Cossacks 1.

Yes they were, I can try to make up some screens later. My PC is just barely in the min-specs for the game. C2 runs best with a 2GHz processor, but how many apps you have running in the back ground can imped the games performance. For me the C2 demo lagged out when there were lots of peasants and unformed troops on screen at once.

Interesting insight into the game, Lars573. Would you say the battles in Cossacks 2 have a historical flavour? The run down of infantry and tactics that you give makes it sound not far from the mark, whereas the stats from Imperial Glory in another thread sounded so absurd I lost all interest in the game. Do the battles "feel" like historical Napoleonic battles? Or are they gamey or, as Aurelian suggested, dominated by a resource rush?

I'm not looking for a hardcore historical wargame but something that captures some of the flavour of combat in the period - like Panzer General or, in a non-historical context, Dawn of War (which is an RTS but the combat is not too far from the source miniature wargame).

Thanks for any advice!

Well I only have the demo, but i have heard the reports from a German guy (screen name Parabellum) on another forum who has it. The demo has 2 historical battles Ulm (which I didn't play yet) which is France (you) vs Austria and another where you are Austria which i did play. I would say that it does have a Napoleonic feel. I didn't get into the nuts and bolts of using the infantry units much, maybe I should. The regular infatry (line, light, grendiers) come in units of 120 like I said but they also have officers, standard bears and drummers attached to the units to make then more effective. They have the porper formations of line, column, and square. Line (three ranks of 40) when you leave them in one place the front rank will neel (indicating they have entered stand ground mode). Also in line you can control which rank fires. Pressing alt I think or holding the mouse pointer over the gun icon will bring up the hit zones, green is the farthest and if you fire when an enemy unit is in it maybe 5 men from the first rank will be hit, yellow is the next and probably 10-15 men will be hit, red is nearly point blank and if you get the enemy in it the whole front rank will drop. What I usually do is fire the first rank in green or yellow fire the second rank in yellow and save the third rank till the enemy closes for a melee. Column is used for marching around, and I use it for bayonette charges. Square unlike the square in Imperial glory is an actual hollow square with drummer officer and standard bearer in the center. Like line when you leave a square long enough outside rank will neel, while in square the unit can't move either.

The resource model in C2 is the most innovative outside of Dawn of war. In a sense it is very minimalist. The only resources that you peasants gather is wood (from forests) and stone (from what look like gravel pits) these are used to build all buildings and buy upgrades. The other resources you need food, gold, iron, and coal are gathered from AI villiages on the map. These look like a house an out building and a windmill for a farm and a mine for the others. To capture it you have to kill off the militia company guarding it. The company is 30 men with stats like light infantry. Once this is done the militia company is retrained (but still under AI control) and fights for you. Then the villiagers gather resources for you, under the AI's direction. The resources get to your pile via a pack train. The pack train drops it load at your town centers and store houses. In addition infantry units can be re-enforced from your villiages.

I'll get into cavalry and artillery and maybe some screens tommorow at some point.