The greatest last stand ever...

[tibilicus]

What is the greatest last stand ever? And if so why is it?

[Byzantine Prince]

Leonidas at Thermopylae. Certain death awaited and he took it like a man when he could have just as easily run away like the cowardly Persians. 300 people versus thousands upon thousands of barbarian hordes, and no flinching.

[Duke Malcolm]

Oh, that's a good movie.

Gordon's Last Stand, fighting muslim rebels in Khartoum. He martyred himself for God, and the Empire, for Queen and Country, for home, family, friends, and his regiment.

[DemonArchangel]

Constanine XI (Constantinople, 1453).

[ShadesPanther]

Gloucestershire Regiment in Korea

http://www.britains-smallwars.com/korea/Imjin.html

[Colovion]

Jesus on the Cross :P

[Watchman]

That one old Ottoman sultan - Murad n "the Thunderbolt" if I recall correctly - apparently did a fairly good showing against Tamerlane. Fought with axe in hand at the head of his surrounded bodyguard for hours when all was lost, or so the books say.

(Side note: Leonidas had a couple of thousand other Greeks besides his depleted Spartans at his last stand, although by the time they were driven onto that hill I sincerely doubt if there were many left...)

[discovery1]

Constanine XI (Constantinople, 1453).

Have to agree with you on this. The last stand of the Romans has to be it.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Id say the battle of Rorke's Drift except they werent killed

[Uesugi Kenshin]

I read an account of Constantine's last stand and would have to go with Leonidas. Leonidas could have left and tried to protect only Sparta or not ordered off most of the other Greeks. The only ones to stay were the Argives and another group, the Argives refused to leave their SPartan allies and the others were ordered to stay. Only three or so Spartans survived, all of them were sent away before the battle. Leonidas died fighting in the main part of the battle and his men stood afterwards. What better way to die?

I doubt anyone else has been remembered for so long for a last stand, he truly was a Spartan king.

[caesar44]

ye the 300 laecadaemonians under leonidas against 50000 to 150000 persians in 480-479 bce

[Al Khalifah]

I agree on Thermopylae.

The 300 Spartans under Leonidas ... oh and around another 300 helots to fight as auxilaries and the other 3000 or so Greek allies who fought there until the final day of the battle when they looked certain to be surrounded. Sorry about the rant, but the 300 men thing is just so cliched - almost as bad as the 1 million Persians figure. 4,000 or so Greeks against 150,000 Persians (plus logistics and support men) is still outrageously overmatched - no need to exagerate it to the point of comic book stupidity (300 vs 1,000,000??)
Leonidas knew he couldn't leave Thermopylae. He had been ordered to go there and fight. To leave would've disgraced him along with any other Spartans who retreated from the battle and they would've been shaved to show their shame. Most likely Leonidas would've been murdered by the Spartan council.
In the end, the battle was so inspirational that a fractured Greece was able to fight against the Persians and win the following campaign. It also wrote the Spartans courage into the history books forever.

Oh... what about The Battle of Rorke's Drift. 139 British (several badly wounded) soldiers held out in a mission against 5000 Zulu warriors. The British had no experienced officers, no artillery and no cavalry yet were able to withstand repeated assaults by swarms of frantic warriors. Such was the skill and courage shown that when the Zulus rallied and were reinforced by their original number again, out of respect and fear for their enemy, they did not re-engage. If they had done, the British would've been easily overwhelmed as they were desperately short of amunition and their defences were broken. A victorious last stand... and a great movie too.

[Baiae]

A victorious last stand... and a great movie too.

And a great mod (hopefully):

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=44262

[Petrus]

What is the greatest last stand ever? And if so why is it?

Leonidas stand is probably the greatest example of sacrifice in history.

I think also to the old guard in waterloo, that covered the routing of the imperial army, most of them died in this occasion.

In february 1916 in the wood of caure, the two battalions of chasseur à pied commanded by Driand fought during two days against two prussian armies at the start of the battle of verdun. They blocked the progression of the invaders and probably saved the french army of a disaster. Of 1500 men at the start, a few dozen came back alive.

In september 1942 in stalingrad, the 13 th division of fusilliers of the guard landed on the west shore as the nazi's armys where storming the city and that the resistance had almost been shattered. They immediatly assaulted and repulsed the krauts that had almost reached the docks. In the day that followed, they where the only organized soviet force in stalingrad and managed to keep the city out of nazi's grab. In the two month that followed, they fought, among other soviet troops, the worst battle in history. When the german's 6 th army surrendered about 50 of the original 10000 fusilliers where still alive.

And even if this was not their final stand, i think the defense of bastogne by the american 101 th airborne has it's place here, as at the time Mc Auliffe answered 'nutsl' to the german's offer of surrender he was completely surrounded, very outgunned and ignored how things could evolve in the coming days.

[Spino]

The Battle of Thermopylae, hands down.

True, the Spartans were initially been backed by a few thousand allied Greek troops but on the third and final day it was down to Leonidas and whomever was actually left alive of his original 300 Spartans and a handful of Tegeans and other volunteers who decided to tough it out to the bitter end.

[Al Khalifah]

but on the third and final day it was down to Leonidas and whomever was actually left alive of his original 300 Spartans and a handful of Tegeans and other volunteers who decided to tough it out to the bitter end.

They all died before the sun was even at its highest in the sky by most accounts. So in other words very quickly. Most accounts also suggest they had practically no effective weapons by this point too, most shields and armour having been rendered useless, spear shafts broken, short swords bluntened beyond repair. Most of the Spartans warriors, including Leonidas were also mortally wounded by this point too. The most effective warriors at this stage would probably have been the helot auxilaries some of whom equiped bows who could at least pick up used arrows. The Spartans had no chance and the final day of the battle was most likely a massacre.

Is this really a great last stand or ignorance of fate? I know the Spartan code of military and personal conduct, but if you are going to class the third day as heroic then why not say Custer's charge was a heroic last stand. The first two days had purpose and achieved something great and were heroic beyond modern reckoning, the third day was just a glorification of death in combat.

Death is not glorious. Trust me, when you've seen death from violence or warfare first hand, your opinion of bravery and glory will be different.

[nokhor]

oda nobunaga- the honnoji incident 1582. and constantine dragases-the fall of constantinople 1453. and i too feel that thermopylae is a little overblown, but i can see why it was so at the time.

[caesar44]

I agree on Thermopylae.

The 300 Spartans under Leonidas ... oh and around another 300 helots to fight as auxilaries and the other 3000 or so Greek allies who fought there until the final day of the battle when they looked certain to be surrounded. Sorry about the rant, but the 300 men thing is just so cliched - almost as bad as the 1 million Persians figure. 4,000 or so Greeks against 150,000 Persians (plus logistics and support men) is still outrageously overmatched - no need to exagerate it to the point of comic book stupidity (300 vs 1,000,000??)
Leonidas knew he couldn't leave Thermopylae. He had been ordered to go there and fight. To leave would've disgraced him along with any other Spartans who retreated from the battle and they would've been shaved to show their shame. Most likely Leonidas would've been murdered by the Spartan council.
In the end, the battle was so inspirational that a fractured Greece was able to fight against the Persians and win the following campaign. It also wrote the Spartans courage into the history books forever.

Oh... what about The Battle of Rorke's Drift. 139 British (several badly wounded) soldiers held out in a mission against 5000 Zulu warriors. The British had no experienced officers, no artillery and no cavalry yet were able to withstand repeated assaults by swarms of frantic warriors. Such was the skill and courage shown that when the Zulus rallied and were reinforced by their original number again, out of respect and fear for their enemy, they did not re-engage. If they had done, the British would've been easily overwhelmed as they were desperately short of amunition and their defences were broken. A victorious last stand... and a great movie too.

nobody in this thread said 1,000,000 persians so ...

[caesar44]

They all died before the sun was even at its highest in the sky by most accounts. So in other words very quickly. Most accounts also suggest they had practically no effective weapons by this point too, most shields and armour having been rendered useless, spear shafts broken, short swords bluntened beyond repair. Most of the Spartans warriors, including Leonidas were also mortally wounded by this point too. The most effective warriors at this stage would probably have been the helot auxilaries some of whom equiped bows who could at least pick up used arrows. The Spartans had no chance and the final day of the battle was most likely a massacre.

Is this really a great last stand or ignorance of fate? I know the Spartan code of military and personal conduct, but if you are going to class the third day as heroic then why not say Custer's charge was a heroic last stand. The first two days had purpose and achieved something great and were heroic beyond modern reckoning, the third day was just a glorification of death in combat.

Death is not glorious. Trust me, when you've seen death from violence or warfare first hand, your opinion of bravery and glory will be different.

it is very interesting that when it comes to what the lacedaemonians had in their hands in the third day of the battle at noon (waow !!!) you mentioned the accounts but when these same accounts say that there were 1,000,000 persians you simply ignore it ...
so my advise - don't manipulate history we will never , never know exactly what happened there !

[Spino]

They all died before the sun was even at its highest in the sky by most accounts. So in other words very quickly. Most accounts also suggest they had practically no effective weapons by this point too, most shields and armour having been rendered useless, spear shafts broken, short swords bluntened beyond repair. Most of the Spartans warriors, including Leonidas were also mortally wounded by this point too. The most effective warriors at this stage would probably have been the helot auxilaries some of whom equiped bows who could at least pick up used arrows. The Spartans had no chance and the final day of the battle was most likely a massacre.

Is this really a great last stand or ignorance of fate? I know the Spartan code of military and personal conduct, but if you are going to class the third day as heroic then why not say Custer's charge was a heroic last stand. The first two days had purpose and achieved something great and were heroic beyond modern reckoning, the third day was just a glorification of death in combat.

Death is not glorious. Trust me, when you've seen death from violence or warfare first hand, your opinion of bravery and glory will be different.

On the third day the surviving Spartans and other Greeks lasted until just before noon because they were overwhelmed by sheer numbers and no longer had the luxury of defending the pass at a single point, they were effectively surrounded. The contingent of picked Persian troops (Immortals?) that were dispatched to follow the Greek turncoat along the hidden mountain trail were instrumental in forcing the surviving Greeks to move to that small hill and form a defensive circle near the pass before being overwhelmed.

I honestly don't know if weapons or armor were in such short supply by the third day. I'm fairly certain that given the circumstances equipment was recycled from hoplites who fell in battle on the first two days and who is to say that the Greek troops that were dismissed by Leonidas at the end of the second day didn't give their spare weapons and equipment to the Spartans and others that remained?

More importantly you're forgetting the horrendous losses sustained by Darius' troops the previous two days. Thousands if not tens of thousands were killed by the Greeks at Thermopylae. It was noted that the dead were stacked so high that subsequent waves of Persians had to climb over them to get to the Greeks. Most soldiers in the Persian army were lightly armed but I'm betting the Greeks scavenged whatever weapons, armor and equipment they could find off the dead. If such acts of scavenging were good enough for Hannibal's troops in his victories over the Romans then why couldn't the Greeks do the same? Hoplons and bronze armor may have been rare among the Persian dead but eastern style swords, light spears, heavy cloth and/or leather armor and wicker shields are better than nothing.

The last stand at Thermopylae was not without purpose and it did buy addiitonal time for the Greeks living south of the pass to evacuate their homes. The battle at Thermopylae also bought time for Athens which managed to evacuate virtually of all its citizens to relative safety. Furthermore Thermopylae was not meant to be an isolated move. Keep in mind the Persian navy was prevented from bypassing Thermopylae by the Greek navy which blockaded the narrow channel between the mainland and the the island of Euboea. This combined action between the Greeks' land and naval forces worked quite well until the Greek fleet had to withdraw and the Greeks at Thermopylae were betrayed by the traitor who led the Persians along a trail that led to the rear of the Greek position. Thermopylae was meant to be a delaying action, not a decisive battle. The last stand on the third day by the surviving Spartans and other Greeks was a symbolic one and sent a message to Darius and his satraps that the conquest and occupation of Greece would be much more difficult than first imagined.

This thread has nothing to do with heroism although I would certainly qualify the battle of Thermopylae as heroic. This thread is about famous last stands, period. SS units made numerous desperate last stands against overwhelming numbers of Soviet troops during the battle of Berlin in 1945 but no-one but a Nazi sympathizer or historical revisionist would call their acts heroic.

[Kaiser of Arabia]

Men of Harlech stop your dreaming
Can't you see their spear points gleaming
See their warrior's pennants streaming
To this battle field

Men of Harlech stand ye steady
It cannot be ever said ye
For the battle were not ready
Stand and never yield

Form the hills rebounding
Let this war cry sounding
Summon all at Cambria's call
The mighty force surrounding

Men of Harlech onto glory
This shall ever be your story
Keep these fighting words before ye
Cambria (Welshmen never) will not yield

Rorkes drift, though they survived.
I'll also have to say Gordon's, Stalingrad (I dont beleive many Germans made it out alive), Custer, The Alamo, Goliad, John Moore's (at Couronna, I beleive), Berlin, and Islanhnawana (sp)

[Uesugi Kenshin]

I think the Lakedaemenions, aka Spartans were supported by the Agrives until the bitter end, even though the rest abandoned them. Even if it was 1000 to 150000 that would be saying that each Spartan would have to take down 150 Persians and then pick up the slack of each man killed by arrows. No matter the skill level if 150 men run at you with their bare hands even if you have an M-60 you are gonna die.

[Franconicus]

What about the fighters in the tunnel system of Cu Chi in Vietnam. Lived completely underground, attacked with bombs, chemicals, dogs and soldiers, heavy losses but didn't surrender. They are my first choice.

Also the soldiers fighting in Verdun (both sides). Bloody massacre without sense, but they kept on fighting.

Another one: the pilots in the Sturmgeschwadern at the end of WW2. They knew that the war was lost , that the were fighting for a criminal and mad regime and they knew that they had little chances to survive the next attack but they kept on fighting. Their machines were not up to date, they were outnumbered. They flew as close as possible to the flying fortresses as possible and fired. If that did succeed (bad firepower) they tried to ram the bombers. Desperatos!! But they had a positiv motivation: they knew that every shot bomber would save lives of civilists.

[Colovion]

I think the Lakedaemenions, aka Spartans were supported by the Agrives until the bitter end, even though the rest abandoned them. Even if it was 1000 to 150000 that would be saying that each Spartan would have to take down 150 Persians and then pick up the slack of each man killed by arrows. No matter the skill level if 150 men run at you with their bare hands even if you have an M-60 you are gonna die.

Remember how it was fought in a narrow mountain crossing?

Think about it.

it is very interesting that when it comes to what the lacedaemonians had in their hands in the third day of the battle at noon (waow !!!) you mentioned the accounts but when these same accounts say that there were 1,000,000 persians you simply ignore it ...
so my advise - don't manipulate history we will never , never know exactly what happened there !

except the simple logistics behind 1,000,000 fighting men in one area in modern times is a staggering prospect, not to mention ancient times.

[Duke of Gloucester]

Now, to be unsufferably accademic about this, we need to define what we mean by last stand, and how we are deciding on "greatest". I think by last stand, it has to be a "death or victory" situation for the defenders. I am no going to insist that all the defenders die, but a very high proportion of them must either die or be in danger of dying if they lose. Thus Thermopylae, Rorke's Drift, are according to my definition last stands. The Battle of Britain is not.

Now greatest could refer to courage and bravery. It could refer to success of it could refer to historical impact. If we are talking courage, I don't think you can draw a distinction. Who were braver, those at the Alamo, or the Spartans or those at Rorke's Drift? Successful last stands are few and far between, but if we take Rorke's Drift as an example, my understanding (and I would be happy to be corrected) is that is was a side show in the Zulu wars. It seems to me that historical impact is the right way to judge the greatest. I think it would be hard to come up with a more important last stand than Thrermopylae. It bought time for the Greek nations to prefer a defence. It inspired Greek states to resist the Persians and enabled them to sew the seeds of European civilisation.

[Longshanks]

The greatest last stand ever is without a doubt Thermopylae. If not for the sacrifice of the Spartans, perhaps democracy and Western civilization would have died in its infancy. Ironic that the Spartans should save democracy.

It has also captured our imagination for over 2000 years. Every last stand since then has been compared to the Spartans at Thermopylae.

Using Duke of Glouchester's criteria I'd also like to nominate the battle of Chosin Reservoir in the Korean War as one of the great last stands in history. For the most part it is a forgotten battle in a forgotten war but it was without a doubt the most important battle of that war, one of the most important of the 20th Century, and without it South Korea may not exist today.

The Chinese entry into the Korean War took the UN forces completely by suprise, and the scattered UN forces were thrown into retreat in the face of the offensive. Unaware of the offensive and with most of the South Korean forces and the US 8th Army in full retreat, the 1st Marine Divison (US) along with a battalion sized unit of British Royal Marines, and a regiment of the 7th Infantry Division (US), soon found themselves completely surrounded by the Chinese 9th Army Group which was composed of 12 divisions. All together about 20,000 men were surrounded by about 120,000. During the battle that ensued the surrounded defenders fought for survival against repeated human wave attacks in sub-zero temperatures, often in viscious hand to hand fighting. Initially the battle was comprised of sieges within a larger siege, as the various Marine, Army and British units were somewhat spread out and often cut off from each other. The defenders successfully linked up, broke out of the pocket and conducted an epic 35 mile fighting retreat, fighting through Communist Chinese forces blocking the only avenue of retreat.

When it was over the Chinese had lost over 40,000 men and had failed to destroy the reinforced division they had surrounded. 6 of the 8 Chinese divisions that had played a leading role in the battle were effectively destroyed and would not see action again in the Korean War. The heavy casualties suffered at the Chosin Reservoir by Chinese put the 9th Army Group out of action until the end of March of that year. Had the 9th Army been able to to participate in the Chinese Third and Fourth Phase offensives in January and February, its presence would have been decisive. If the Chinese had been able to destroy the 1st Marine Division they would have been able to roll up X Corps like a carpet, and most likely would have completely driven UN forces from the Korean peninsula.

[The Blind King of Bohemia]

For me the defense of Camerone by the French foreign Legion

During a reconnaissance mission on April 30, the Third Company of the 1st Battalion encountered a much larger enemy force on the Vera Cruz Road. The company had an official strength of 120 men, but had been reduced to 62 men by disease. As the company's officers were as sick as its men, the Legion's contingent commander had appointed staff officers, Captain Jean Danjou and Second Lieutenants Villain and Maudet, to lead the mission. When the Mexicans attacked the patrol, Danjou led the force in a bayonet attack to gain relative safety in an abandoned homestead known as Camerone. There, for the next ten hours, the sixty-five men fought off repeated attacks by 2,000 Mexican soldiers. At one point during the battle a Mexican Lieutenant called on the legionnaires to surrender. Danjou assembled his men and asked all to swear that they would never surrender; they did. After the refusal was delivered, the Mexicans sounded the degueno, a drum and bugle call indicating that survivors would be given no quarter. Repeatedly, the Mexicans attacked until finally after a massive general assault they subdued all fires and overran the entire homestead except for its stable. There Maudet and five legionnaires, out of ammunition, launched a bayonet charge into the mass of Mexican infantry. One man was instantly killed, riddled with nineteen rounds as he tried to shield Maudet. Maudet and another were mortally wounded, and three legionnaires found themselves surrounded. A senior Mexican officer stepped forward and again asked them to surrender. "On the condition we keep our weapons and you look after our officer," replied Legionnaire Maine. The terms were accepted by the officer who stated, "To men such as you, one refuses nothing." Thirty-three legionnaires died in the battle and of the thirty-one who were captured, nineteen soon died of their wounds. Only one man, a drummer, was neither captured or killed. He was rescued by French troops the following day. He had been left for dead after receiving two bullet and seven lance wounds.


* When the final three defenders were brought to the Mexican commander, Colonel Milan, he initially could not believe that they were the only standing survivors. When he was finally convinced, he exclaimed, "Truly, these are not men, they are demons." One of the men, Legionnaire Berg received permission from Milan to write a short note to the Legion commander: "The Third Company of the 1st is dead, my Colonel, but it did enough to make those who speak of it say, 'It had nothing but good soldiers.'"



* In honor of the battle, Napoleon II ordered the names Camerone, Danjou, Maudet, and Vilain to be inscribed in gold letters on the walls of the Invalides in Paris



* Even today, in Mexico, formal military ceremonies are conducted annually at the site of the battle memorial which reads: "They were less than sixty here--Opposed to a whole army--Its mass crushed them--Life instead of courage--Abandoned these French soldiers."

[Uesugi Kenshin]

I do no think it is that ironic that Sparta saved democracy, the Spartans were in a republic like ghovernment, though very rigid it was one of the inspirations that the US's founding fathers drew from. In reality the democracy of Athens sucked. Every time a leader died they had a major power vacuum and could not figure out who to place in power. In the perfect world majority rule by the popular vote on every law would work very well, but it does not.

Mountain pass or not staring down 150x your number is a terrifying experience, besides arrows would have made it difficult for the SPartans to fight well. They could either cover themselves with their shield or fight, no compromise. Also it takes a special type of person to defy such power and keep fighting all day under such brutal circumstances.

[The Wizard]

Leonidas at Thermopylae. Certain death awaited and he took it like a man when he could have just as easily run away like the cowardly Persians. 300 people versus thousands upon thousands of barbarian hordes, and no flinching.

Blah blah -- the battle probably was characterized by the Persians shooting at the tight Spartan phalanx from a safe distance, say over the wall which had been constructed at Thermopylae. Do not let yourself be deluded by contemporary Greek accounts... they do not take into account the Persian style of waging war.

150,000 Persians? A nice scaling down of Herodotus' outrageously stupid 1,000,000, a fine example of Greek jubilation about their victory (justified) and their glorification of it (unjustified). Do not trust any fact offered in contemporary sources. But the most propable number remains no more than 80,000 Persians, a massive force for the time.

Of course, the Spartans would have tried to counterattack to be of use, and, behind their wall they could have held out for quite a while. Hence the little backroute which brought the equally proficient 'Immortals' into direct combat with the Spartans, quickly crushing what remained of their number.

Anyways, for me a beautiful last stand is encapsulated within another famous battle: Waterloo. Marshal Ney's repeated (if futile) attacks upon Wellington's center were truly amazing, especially considering the good man only retreated at nightfall. He truly deserves his title of Les Brave des Braves!

But, for me, there is an even better last stand since it is carried out by brave men from my own country. At the battle of the Java Sea, 27th of february 1942, the CSF (Combined Striking Force), a fleet consisting of 12 ships from several Allied powers, including Holland, under command of rear admiral Karel Doorman, was ordered by admiral Thomas C. Hart to attack a heavily escorted Japanese convoy, under command of rear admiral Shoji Nishimura.

Soon enough, a whole lot went wrong. When the HMS Exeter, a British heavy cruiser, was hit, it retreated back to port. Three cruisers started to follow it, thinking it was a manoeuvre. Schout-bij-nacht (rear admiral) Doorman, to prevent confusion, said, "All ships follow me." In Dutch, he is reported to have said "Ik val aan -- volgt mij!" (I'm attacking -- follow me!)

He did -- his ship, the light cruiser HNLMS De Ruyter (a fateful name indeed, if not altogether ironic) was subsequently sunk by the Japanese flagship, the heavy cruiser Haguro, which hit the De Ruyter with long lance torperdoes.

Like most last stands, it was a military loss. But this heroic action of Doorman's, however downplayed by the fact that he was commander of a ship with a crew of 375, deserves to be mentioned indeed.



~Wiz

[Afonso I of Portugal]

I think we should separate a few things. There was many heroic last stands in history, in every periods: Greek/Roman; Barbarian invasions of roman empire; Medieval; Crusades; the "Reconquista", Age of Discoveries, and so on...