Samurai in STW ... how good are they ?

[kiwitt]

A question for people who have played STW/MTW/RTW.

Are the samurai the best swordsmen in any of the above games ?

In Medieval, you've got the JHI as the best infantry unit. I was wondering whether the Samurai in STW are even better.

[ichi]

Pumped up Warrior Monks seem to do quite well. Vulnerable to arrows unless armored, but otherwise pretty tough.

Towards the end of one game I had built the Temple Complex, the highest upgrade building, in a province that also made gold armor and weapons. I took the Monks from that province and gave them to an 8 star gen, went up against the Hojo Horde. In the woods they made a lot of dogfood out of the Hojo cav.

ichi

[Papewaio]

STW is a bit different to the rest.

Less unit variety while better balance.

Samurai are deadly and you can only build them after triggering the great swordsman event (rather easy if you know what to do).

But the units overall are much more paper-scissor-stone balanced.

Spears beat Cav beat Sword beat Spears.

But for best swordsman it has to go to the sword saint. A unit of one that is a sword machine.

[Togakure]

It's a bit difficult to compare units between the games (I play STW and MTW). The primary swordsman in STW is the No Dachi unit. They don't use shields (no units in STW use shields ... well, in the Mongol Invasions campaign, the Korean Skirmishers do). Thus, MTW swordsmen have better defense statistics than do No Dachi. No Dachi do not do well against cavalry units at all, but tear spear and archer units of similar honor (valor in MTW) to shreds. No Dachi have an excellent attack rating, poor defense rating, and are very vulnerable to missle fire of any kind.

The Kensai is an elite unit consisting of a single warrior. It is expensive to produce, but stat-wise it is far superior to any other individual warrior. One Kensai can kill over a hundred men in a battle if used carefully. They are vulnerable to musket fire however, and this is how I usually deal with them. Some MP players will use a low honor Kensai as general (I don't because mine tend to get shot, and I prefer a cav gen for mobility, usually). Because their kill rate is so high, a Kensai gen can gain several honor points in the course of a single battle (thus improving their stats during combat).

Statwise, Warrior Monks are almost identical to No Dachi. The primary differences are in defense value (base of 2, as opposed to the No Dachi's base -2, at least in the original stats), and that they inflict a moral penalty of -2 to any unit they target as long as that unit doesn't belong to a Christian army. In Shogun MP, this last comment is irrelevant as all armies are considered to be Buddhist. I've heard it said that Warrior Monks are a bit slower than No Dachi (perhaps in their charge speed), but I'd have to look at the stats to be sure. I attribute the Warrior Monk's superior defense value to the fact that they use Naginata as a weapon, which is defensive by nature and has a longer reach than the large no dachi sword. However, the monk's defense rating is no where near that of the Naginata Infantry unit's (a base of 6 in the original stats), so I imagine them to use Nagimaki instead of naginata (essentially a similar weapon, but with a shorter shaft). It would have been interesting if the polearm bonuses used in MTW were applied to the naginata/nagimaki in STW. This would have made the monk and naginata units much more deadly (which would have required additional balancing so as not to invalidate other unit types).

The Battlefield Ninja units use swords for melee. They are an elite unit consisting of 12 men, very similar to the muslim Hashishin in MTW. They are second only to Kensai in melee combat effectiveness man for man, but are easily defeated in open combat by monks and no dachi. Because of their high cost and the fact that they can be seen moving in MP, they are rarely used (except on the Yamato map ). They cannot be seen until they attack against the AI however, and can be very effective in a campaign if used creatively.

Cavalry Archers use swords for melee, but like in MTW, it is not usually wise to use them in hand-to-hand combat, except when chasing down routers. This is doubly so in MP, as it's usually cost-ineffective to bring Cav Archers with honor exceeding 1. This makes them flighty, and they tend to run quickly if caught in a melee skirmish. In SP campaigns however, you'll often have Cav Archers with upgraded armor and honor of 3-5 under a good general. These can be used to melee-attack ranged units in particular without risking an early rout. Samurai units routing (as opposed to peasant ashigaru) is not something you want to happen, as it affects the morale of all nearby samurai and ashigaru units detrimentally.

Finally, Heavy Cavalry use swords in STW. This heavily armored unit is expensive, but pretty sturdy. Their main nemeses are Yari Cavalry and Yari Samurai. Heavy cav are slow compared to the other cav types, both in movement, charging, and manuevering. Because of this and their high cost, most MP players tend to favor Naginata Cavalry for assault. Those that bring Heavy Cav most often use them in supporting roles when attacking, or for protecting the musket line.

In summary, I don't think it's practical to compare swordsmen across the boundaries of the games. They were designed within the context of their historical setting, and additional stat detail was applied in MTW. I think if you could match No Dachi against the better-armored and shielded MTW swordsmen, they would lose, despite their arguably superior skill. It would be a case of "technology" overriding ability.

[Al Khalifah]

they inflict a moral penalty of -2 to any unit they target as long as that unit doesn't belong to a Christian army

Aha, so what you're saying is that in a straight fight between a Shogun army and a Medieval army, the moral penalty inflicted by the Warrior Monks wouldn't be an issue because there are no Buddhist factions in Medieval. HOWEVER, a unit of Christian fanatics, Knights Templar would be able to inflict damage on any Christian factions in Shogun. Also the Inquisitors could also finish off any troublesome Christian characters on the strategy map.
Such a meeting would probably result in a very high number of casualties due to arrow fire. A unit of longbows would tear through any Shogun foot unit, due to their total lack of shielding and in many cases armour. At the same time, the superior Samurai bows would also inflict heavy casualties on non heavily armoured or shielded Medieval troops.

Now theres an idea for a mod, Medieval vs Shogun.

[CBR]

If you compare directly with the unitstats in STW and MTW then the dreaded Warrior Monk has same combat power as Feudal Men at Arms so not that good really.

You would definitely need to do some statchanges for the STW units if you want them to be any good compared to MTW units.


CBR

[Togakure]

... Now theres an idea for a mod, Medieval vs Shogun. ...

Heh, yeah I've always thought it would be interesting to create an "alternate history" mod where it was the Japanese instead of the Mongols that came rampaging west with interests in dominating the known world. There doesn't seem to be nearly as much interest in developing mods that aren't "historically accurate," (sic) however. Oh well, it's a neat idea.