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    A very, very Senior Member Adrian II's Avatar
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    Default Papyri decoded

    Any speculations yet about the contents, ladies and gentlemen? Personally I'm looking forward to the Archilochos bits because of what they may 'tell' us about the siege of Troy.

    The Independent
    17 April 2005

    Decoded at last: the 'classical holy grail' that may rewrite the history of the world

    Scientists begin to unlock the secrets of papyrus scraps bearing long-lost words by the literary giants of Greece and Rome

    by David Keys and Nicholas Pyke

    For more than a century, it has caused excitement and frustration in equal measure - a collection of Greek and Roman writings so vast it could redraw the map of classical civilisation. If only it was legible.

    Now, in a breakthrough described as the classical equivalent of finding the holy grail, Oxford University scientists have employed infra-red technology to open up the hoard, known as the Oxyrhynchus Papyri, and with it the prospect that hundreds of lost Greek comedies, tragedies and epic poems will soon be revealed.

    In the past four days alone, Oxford's classicists have used it to make a series of astonishing discoveries, including writing by Sophocles, Euripides, Hesiod and other literary giants of the ancient world, lost for millennia. They even believe they are likely to find lost Christian gospels, the originals of which were written around the time of the earliest books of the New Testament.

    The original papyrus documents, discovered in an ancient rubbish dump in central Egypt, are often meaningless to the naked eye - decayed, worm-eaten and blackened by the passage of time. But scientists using the new photographic technique, developed from satellite imaging, are bringing the original writing back into view. Academics have hailed it as a development which could lead to a 20 per cent increase in the number of great Greek and Roman works in existence. Some are even predicting a "second Renaissance".

    Christopher Pelling, Regius Professor of Greek at the University of Oxford, described the new works as "central texts which scholars have been speculating about for centuries".

    Professor Richard Janko, a leading British scholar, formerly of University College London, now head of classics at the University of Michigan, said: "Normally we are lucky to get one such find per decade." One discovery in particular, a 30-line passage from the poet Archilocos, of whom only 500 lines survive in total, is described as "invaluable" by Dr Peter Jones, author and co-founder of the Friends of Classics campaign.

    The papyrus fragments were discovered in historic dumps outside the Graeco-Egyptian town of Oxyrhynchus ("city of the sharp-nosed fish") in central Egypt at the end of the 19th century. Running to 400,000 fragments, stored in 800 boxes at Oxford's Sackler Library, it is the biggest hoard of classical manuscripts in the world.

    The previously unknown texts, read for the first time last week, include parts of a long-lost tragedy - the Epigonoi ("Progeny") by the 5th-century BC Greek playwright Sophocles; part of a lost novel by the 2nd-century Greek writer Lucian; unknown material by Euripides; mythological poetry by the 1st-century BC Greek poet Parthenios; work by the 7th-century BC poet Hesiod; and an epic poem by Archilochos, a 7th-century successor of Homer, describing events leading up to the Trojan War. Additional material from Hesiod, Euripides and Sophocles almost certainly await discovery.

    Oxford academics have been working alongside infra-red specialists from Brigham Young University, Utah. Their operation is likely to increase the number of great literary works fully or partially surviving from the ancient Greek world by up to a fifth. It could easily double the surviving body of lesser work - the pulp fiction and sitcoms of the day.

    "The Oxyrhynchus collection is of unparalleled importance - especially now that it can be read fully and relatively quickly," said the Oxford academic directing the research, Dr Dirk Obbink. "The material will shed light on virtually every aspect of life in Hellenistic and Roman Egypt, and, by extension, in the classical world as a whole."

    The breakthrough has also caught the imagination of cultural commentators. Melvyn Bragg, author and presenter, said: "It's the most fantastic news. There are two things here. The first is how enormously influential the Greeks were in science and the arts. The second is how little of their writing we have. The prospect of having more to look at is wonderful."

    Bettany Hughes, historian and broadcaster, who has presented TV series including Mysteries of the Ancients and The Spartans, said: "Egyptian rubbish dumps were gold mines. The classical corpus is like a jigsaw puzzle picked up at a jumble sale - many more pieces missing than are there. Scholars have always mourned the loss of works of genius - plays by Sophocles, Sappho's other poems, epics. These discoveries promise to change the textual map of the golden ages of Greece and Rome."

    When it has all been read - mainly in Greek, but sometimes in Latin, Hebrew, Coptic, Syriac, Aramaic, Arabic, Nubian and early Persian - the new material will probably add up to around five million words. Texts deciphered over the past few days will be published next month by the London-based Egypt Exploration Society, which financed the discovery and owns the collection.

    A 21st-century technique reveals antiquity's secrets

    Since it was unearthed more than a century ago, the hoard of documents known as the Oxyrhynchus Papyri has fascinated classical scholars. There are 400,000 fragments, many containing text from the great writers of antiquity. But only a small proportion have been read so far. Many were illegible.

    Now scientists are using multi-spectral imaging techniques developed from satellite technology to read the papyri at Oxford University's Sackler Library. The fragments, preserved between sheets of glass, respond to the infra-red spectrum - ink invisible to the naked eye can be seen and photographed.

    The fragments form part of a giant "jigsaw puzzle" to be reassembled. Missing "pieces" can be supplied from quotations by later authors, and grammatical analysis.

    Key words from the master of Greek tragedy

    Speaker A: . . . gobbling the whole, sharpening the flashing iron.

    Speaker B: And the helmets are shaking their purple-dyed crests, and for the wearers of breast-plates the weavers are striking up the wise shuttle's songs, that wakes up those who are asleep.

    Speaker A: And he is gluing together the chariot's rail.

    These words were written by the Greek dramatist Sophocles, and are the only known fragment we have of his lost play Epigonoi (literally "The Progeny"), the story of the siege of Thebes. Until last week's hi-tech analysis of ancient scripts at Oxford University, no one knew of their existence, and this is the first time they have been published.

    Sophocles (495-405 BC), was a giant of the golden age of Greek civilisation, a dramatist who work alongside and competed with Aeschylus, Euripides and Aristophanes.

    His best-known work is Oedipus Rex, the play that later gave its name to the Freudian theory, in which the hero kills his father and marries his mother - in a doomed attempt to escape the curse he brings upon himself. His other masterpieces include Antigone and Electra.

    Sophocles was the cultured son of a wealthy Greek merchant, living at the height of the Greek empire. An accomplished actor, he performed in many of his own plays. He also served as a priest and sat on the committee that administered Athens. A great dramatic innovator, he wrote more than 120 plays, but only seven survive in full.

    Last week's remarkable finds also include work by Euripides, Hesiod and Lucian, plus a large and particularly significant paragraph of text from the Elegies, by Archilochos, a Greek poet of the 7th century BC.
    The bloody trouble is we are only alive when we’re half dead trying to get a paragraph right. - Paul Scott

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    Ambiguous Member Byzantine Prince's Avatar
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    Default Re: Papyri decoded

    Hoh... ho... that's is... so.... amazing...*chokes*. OMFG!

    This is astonishing news. Thank zeus for infra red technology.

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    A very, very Senior Member Adrian II's Avatar
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    Default Re: Papyri decoded

    Quote Originally Posted by Byzantine Prince
    Hoh... ho... that's is... so.... amazing...*chokes*. OMFG!

    This is astonishing news. Thank zeus for infra red technology.
    Amazing - twenty people have viewed this message, yet only you seem to realise its relevance. You think I should have phrased the title differently? Like 'Coolest papyrus of all time!' or sumpin'?
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    Member Senior Member Proletariat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Papyri decoded

    I'dve posted before but it took this long for my excitement to wane to the point where I wouldn't use glorious, over-eager, profane exultations that may have resulted in downright billingsgate.

    *looks forward to the Renaissance Part Deux*

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    A very, very Senior Member Adrian II's Avatar
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    Default Re: Papyri decoded

    Quote Originally Posted by Proletariat
    I'dve posted before but it took this long for my excitement to wane to the point where I wouldn't use glorious, over-eager, profane exultations that may have resulted in downright billingsgate.

    *looks forward to the Renaissance Part Deux*
    Present company wholeheartedly excluded.
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    Clan Takiyama Senior Member CBR's Avatar
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    Default Re: Papyri decoded

    Well its definitely great news. I wonder if some of Polybius' lost works are in there too..


    CBR

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    Default Re: Papyri decoded

    "The Oxyrhynchus collection is of unparalleled importance - especially now that it can be read fully and relatively quickly," said the Oxford academic directing the research, Dr Dirk Obbink. "The material will shed light on virtually every aspect of life in Hellenistic and Roman Egypt, and, by extension, in the classical world as a whole."
    Very nice insight to the past (no pun intended. )

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    Master of the Horse Senior Member Pindar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Papyri decoded

    I've been following this for some time. The BYU team is from my undergraduate alma mater.

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    Moderator Moderator Gregoshi's Avatar
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    Default Re: Papyri decoded

    I love this kind of stuff. Five million words...
    This space intentionally left blank

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    Default Re: Papyri decoded

    Wow. Second Renaissance - a little exagerated.

    But it will be nice to learn of the "events leading to the Troian War".

    I just wonder what kind of moron threw these writtings into rubbish back then.

    "Please Klemendra, calm down now, it's no use..."
    "Calm down!? [a jar thrown against the wall] You are of no use! You do nothing but drink and write!"
    "But writing is my job..."
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    "Oh, why do I have to listen to this..."
    "Prostatomes, where are you going? If you visit this [cenzored] Pulcheria once more, you will never see your library again, I warn you [this time a vase goes to Hades]!!!!"
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    Member Member cunctator's Avatar
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    Default Re: Papyri decoded

    This is good news, but the idea of a second Renaissance is both silly and singes the hairs on my backend. It is about time that the truth about Troy was revealed, though, and I can't wait to hear how this will help.

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    Von Uber Member Butcher's Avatar
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    Default Re: Papyri decoded

    Or, most intriugingly, new gospels.. that should set the cat among the pigeons.
    - I'm sorry, but giving everyone an equal part when they're not clearly equal is what again, class?

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    A very, very Senior Member Adrian II's Avatar
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    Default Re: Papyri decoded

    Quote Originally Posted by Butcher
    Or, most intriugingly, new gospels.. that should set the cat among the pigeons.
    There's a note of caution on the Oxford Classics Department site: 'About 10% is literary, i.e. the fragmentary remains of ancient books; the rest documents public and private (codes, edicts, registers, official correspondence, census-returns, tax-assessments, petitions, court-records; sales, leases, wills, bills, accounts, inventories, horoscopes, private letters).'
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    Tovenaar Senior Member The Wizard's Avatar
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    Default Re: Papyri decoded

    So intriguing a find is very rare -- it should certainly give us new source material to ponder for years to come!



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    American since 2012 Senior Member AntiochusIII's Avatar
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    Default Re: Papyri decoded

    This is a good news indeed!

    I hope the scholars of the world would renew these works' importance, and the intellectual materials increased greatly from this "discovery."

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    Magister Vitae Senior Member Kraxis's Avatar
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    Default Re: Papyri decoded

    Quote Originally Posted by CBR
    Well its definitely great news. I wonder if some of Polybius' lost works are in there too..


    CBR
    Most certainly not as it seems we are talking about poems and other 'popular' works. Polybius was mainly writing to a specific group, the military, and they would have their own dumps. This one seems to be very civil. But I hope just as much as you do. It would be great if the work on the phalanx is in there somewhere.

    And pre-Troy, ohhh that would be really nice. Especially since it would most likely be in line with Homer, and even more importantly, with whatever historical basis Homer used.
    I just hope they will do it quickly, so that I have something to write my candidature on.
    You may not care about war, but war cares about you!


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    Default Re: Papyri decoded

    Have a bit more hope Kraxis, after all the Oxyrhynchus Papyri are also the only source for the Oxyrhynchus Historian (very likely Kratippos of Athens). If the dump has his sober history of the early 4th century, why not other quality historians as well.

    Even tragedy and comedy can be useful historical sources, the Persians by Aeschylus is as valuable as Herodotus when it comes to the battle of Salamis.
    Last edited by conon394; 04-25-2005 at 03:05.
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    Magister Vitae Senior Member Kraxis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by conon394
    Have a bit more hope Kraxis, after all the Oxyrhynchus Papyri are also the only source for the Oxyrhynchus Historian (very likely Kratippos of Athens). If the dump has his sober history of the early 4th century, why not other quality historians as well.

    Even tragedy and comedy can be useful historical sources, the Persians by Aeschylus is as valuable as Herodotus when it comes to the battle of Salamis.
    It is not that I deny that works by historians could be in the pile, even in large numbers, but most of them are really 'only' a chronological eventline. Something even the most basic person could read (if he could read that is). Also something like that would have much more interest for the trader, the craftsman and the peasant. Polybius' works are to a geat extent something like manuals for the commander or the general at home. Thus it is unlikely that we would finds his works in the pile, as the general population would most likely never have heard of him.

    And of course tragedies and comedies are of important value, if not for their direct historical content then for their indirect content (how people lived and acted, what they cared about what they hated, what they did in their sparetime ect ect).

    I would love for them to find the great work on the phalanx by Polybius, I just think it is highly unlikely as it would be out of place there.
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    Prematurely Anti-Fascist Senior Member Aurelian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Papyri decoded

    Highly, highly cool. I wonder if that infra-red technique could be applied to other fragmentary sources? I'm thinking in particular of the Dead Sea Scrolls and Nag Hamadi texts... but just think how many "worthless" pieces of papyrus might turn out to be little goldmines. It's a killer to think how much has been thrown away that might now be decipherable.

    I used to play DBM with one of the Classics professors at U of M. Maybe the lucky bastard is getting to play with the new material.

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    Master of useless knowledge Senior Member Kitten Shooting Champion, Eskiv Champion Ironside's Avatar
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    Default Re: Papyri decoded

    Quote Originally Posted by Butcher
    Or, most intriugingly, new gospels.. that should set the cat among the pigeons.
    Too many pigeons for the cat already.

    nag-hammadi texts

    Quite a few other gospels was found for 60 years ago.
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    Dragonslayer Emeritus Senior Member Sigurd's Avatar
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    Yes, what became of Troy? There are already Caucasian/ Norse texts that speaks of a remnant of Troy; refugees if you want, that settled by the Tanais river at the back of the Black Sea. They later fled the Roman expansion and travelled North-west and became the Royal family of Northern Europe.

    I would hope this text will confirm the royal line of Troy and shed some more light on this issue.
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    Master of the Horse Senior Member Pindar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Papyri decoded

    Quote Originally Posted by Aurelian
    Highly, highly cool. I wonder if that infra-red technique could be applied to other fragmentary sources? I'm thinking in particular of the Dead Sea Scrolls and Nag Hamadi texts... but just think how many "worthless" pieces of papyrus might turn out to be little goldmines. It's a killer to think how much has been thrown away that might now be decipherable.

    I used to play DBM with one of the Classics professors at U of M. Maybe the lucky bastard is getting to play with the new material.
    The infra-red technique is used on the Dead Sea Scrolls. That is what it was originally being used for. There is also a certain crossover of team researchers between the projects.

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    A very, very Senior Member Adrian II's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pindar
    The infra-red technique is used on the Dead Sea Scrolls. That is what it was originally being used for. There is also a certain crossover of team researchers between the projects.
    I found it a bit suspicious that neither the Oxford Classics Department, nor the Ashmolean or Brigham Young seemed to make a big deal out of their 'sensational breakthough'. Indeed, some phone calls and scientific articles later I realised that the whole thing may not be as sensational as The Independent presented it, and that the infra-red method has been in use for quite some time. The fuss seems to have been inspired by recent improvements in the method.
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    Ambiguous Member Byzantine Prince's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AdrianII
    Amazing - twenty people have viewed this message, yet only you seem to realise its relevance. You think I should have phrased the title differently? Like 'Coolest papyrus of all time!' or sumpin'?
    You should have named it 'Paris Hilton just made out with Lindsay Lohan on national TV, hommies!!!!'. Then people would come.

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    Scruffy Looking Nerf Herder Member Steppe Merc's Avatar
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    Default Re: Papyri decoded

    This is sweet. I really hope some interresting stuff will be found, and the Troy does look particullary interesting. Any idea how long it will take? A month, years?
    Pindar, so you worked with these guys? Or what does alma mater mean? Sorry for my college ignorance, I'm still looking for which one I want to go to...

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    Master of the Horse Senior Member Pindar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Papyri decoded

    Quote Originally Posted by AdrianII
    I found it a bit suspicious that neither the Oxford Classics Department, nor the Ashmolean or Brigham Young seemed to make a big deal out of their 'sensational breakthough'. Indeed, some phone calls and scientific articles later I realised that the whole thing may not be as sensational as The Independent presented it, and that the infra-red method has been in use for quite some time. The fuss seems to have been inspired by recent improvements in the method.

    That doesn't surprised me. Even with the infra-red help it will take a long long time.

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    Master of the Horse Senior Member Pindar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steppe Merc
    Pindar, so you worked with these guys? Or what does alma mater mean? Sorry for my college ignorance, I'm still looking for which one I want to go to...
    An Alma mater is the school one graduated from. BYU was where I did my undergraduate work. No, I didn't work with these fellows. The closest I got to this suff was attending a few lectures.

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    Member Member cunctator's Avatar
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    Default Re: Papyri decoded

    I don`t see how papyri dated in the roman and early byzantine periods of egypt can tell us real facts about the 13-12th century BC bronze age Troy. Epic poems like the one by Archilochos original written in the 7th century BC will give us a more complete view on the greek myths about troy. But they will not answer the question how much of them is based on true events of the late bronze age, remembered in a oral tradition trougout the dark age of hellas and how much was added by the poets to get abetter story.


    Quote Originally Posted by Sigurd Fafnesbane
    Yes, what became of Troy? There are already Caucasian/ Norse texts that speaks of a remnant of Troy; refugees if you want, that settled by the Tanais river at the back of the Black Sea. They later fled the Roman expansion and travelled North-west and became the Royal family of Northern Europe.

    I would hope this text will confirm the royal line of Troy and shed some more light on this issue.
    I doubt that there is any historical truth in this texts. The romans were the first that proclaimed to be descendants of troians. In medieval times half of europe, especially the nobility constructed troian routs.
    Beginning with Fredegars Chronicle of the franks in the 7th century ad and the liber historiae francorum in 8th century many "historians" produced a troian origin of their peoople.
    Last edited by cunctator; 05-05-2005 at 17:53.

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    Dragonslayer Emeritus Senior Member Sigurd's Avatar
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    Default Re: Papyri decoded

    Quote Originally Posted by cunctator
    I doubt that there is any historical truth in this texts. The romans were the first that proclaimed to be descendants of troians. In medieval times half of europe, especially the nobility constructed troian routs.
    Beginning with Fredegars Chronicle of the franks in the 7th century ad and the liber historiae francorum in 8th century many "historians" produced a troian origin of their peoople.
    Yes, and there is a reason for that.
    About 70 BC a great king came from east and conquered most of North Europe. This very king put his sons to rule in the diverse nations and hence gave the Royals of Europe the same kin. This great king became their mythical God; Odin/Wotan/Utan.
    If you compare the chronicles of Europe with the sagas of Iceland you will find the exact same royal line back to Odin. And some go even further back to a prince of Troy; Thor with his wife Sif. Thor is the only Norse God not accounted for in the Sagas as a son of Odin and there is speculations of him being the God they blotet (sacrificed) to.
    It was a tradition that great rulers of the past gained Deity status.

    It would be nice if this royal line was confirmed in these papyri. A mention of Thor and his wife Sif would be especially good. Then there would be a connection to the royals of Europe.
    Last edited by Sigurd; 05-11-2005 at 22:56. Reason: Island -> Iceland
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