Age of Empires (esque)

[Al Khalifah]

This mod is very much in the spirit of Microsoft's Age of Empires. All factions are essentially dipping into a common unit pool and tech-tree, but only certain factions can build the more advanced units on the branches of the tech tree. The idea is not to promote realism, although the mod is loosely (and I mean loosely) based around real classical cultures and as far as possible factions reflect the strengths and weaknesses of their real life counter-parts military.
The mod is also highly inspired by the more simplistic combat style of Shogun: Total War, where all units maintained a certain degree of utility throughout the campaign. This means that the player cannot just tech up their armies to a degree where even a strategic buffoon could march to victory with them. Rather the player must adopt a more rock, paper, scissors approach to strategy, keeping cavalry away from pikes and so on, while also making sure to take into account the terrain. The difference is that some factions can build more advanced units than others and so will have certain strengths to exploit. Careful exploitation of these strengths will be required for victory.

Draft Unit List and Military Tech Tree

At the moment, my main focus with the mod is development of the units and their strengths on the 3D battle map. I am also insuring, even at this early stage that the factions are balanced with regard to the range and strength of the units that they can recruit.
To tie all this together, I'm also working on a minature taster campaign using the units and some factions that will feature in the final mod.
Glory of Greece will cover a few provinces in Greece, Turkey and the Middle East. It will involve the Greek, Minoan, Macedonian, Hittite, Trojan, Phoenician and Roman factions.


Simple modified regions file for Glory of Greece.

Note Glory of Greece is not the full campaign and the campaign map is only a small proportion of the size of the final campaign map and the number of factions that will be involved.

Full mod description... to come soon.

[Al Khalifah]

ORIGINAL POST:

The other day I was musing on Rome: Total War and all the complaints it gets about realism and game balance and a thought occured to me. Perhaps the game would best be improved by taking away somewhat from the historical realism of the game. This made me think about Age Of Empires (the original/Rise of Rome).
This game wasn't very historically accurate at all, but was extremely fun to play because each faction was strong in certain areas but weak in others. Essentially the factions all dipped into the same unit pool and building tree, but could only build certain units from it. Units were hierachical in conjunction with the advance through the tech tree, with each unit type having a definite purpose. For example, the hoplite->phalanx->centurion tree was very effective against cavalry but was slow and thus vulnerable to horse archers.
Now in this tree several factions could only build the hoplite unit, even if they advanced their technology tree. Others could build the hoplite and then the phalanx. A few factions could build the centurion (the 'gold unit' for this unit type).

What I'm thinking is why not make a mod for Rome: Total War along this idea. The original units and factions from Age of Empires could be used, or new ones added possibly to replace some of the Stone Age units. Historical accuracy is not desperately important here. As far as I can remember, these were the AoE units (in their trees):

Town Centre:
Villagers
Archery Range:
Bowmen -> Improved Bowmen -> Composite Bowmen
Horse Archer -> Heavy Horse Archer
Chariot Archer
Elephant Archer
Barracks:
Clubman -> Axeman
Slinger
Short Swordsman -> Board Swordsman -> Long Swordsman -> Legion
Accademy:
Hoplite -> Phalanx -> Centurion
Stables:
Scout
Chariot -> Scythed Chariot
Cavalry -> Heavy Cavalry -> Cataphract
War Elephant -> Armored Elephant
Camel Rider
Temple:
Priest
Docks:
Scout Ship - > War Galley -> Trireme
Fire Galley
Catapult Trireme -> Juggernaught
Siege Workshop:
Stone Thrower - > Catapult -> Heavy Catapult
Ballista -> Helepolis

Now the Greek faction for example could build Heavy Catapults and Helepolis, juggernaughts and triremes making them awesome at sea and in a siege. On land they could also produce Centurions and legions, giving them solid melee infantry. However, they could only build basic bowmen and basic cavalry, with no elephants or horse archers. Persia on the other hand had far more archery units and elephants, but less siege engines and heavy melee infantry. In other words, all factions were balanced more or less.


So any thoughts... ?

[Alexander the Pretty Good]

This belongs in the Forge, next board over, mate.

The problem with this is that it is too generic. That could help, as MTW was generic in some aspects, like most Western European nations but even so MTW had a good smattering of unique units.

There should also be more units, I think.

Who knows? This mod could become a runnaway success, as further proof of my poor advice/choices.

[Laridus Konivaich]

Would you want to make only the highest level of unit available, they way they are in AoE, or would you let all of the previous levels be trainable?

All of the units that were in Age of Empires: the Rise of Rome (note: this is directory from the appendix of the game manual):
//
villager
priest
clubman
axeman
slinger
shor swordsman
broad swordsman
long swordsman
legion
hoplite
phalanx
centurion
//
bowman
improved bowman
composite bowman
chariot archer
elephant archer
horse archer
heavy horse archer
//
scout
camel rider
chariot
scythe chariot
cavalry
heavy cavalry
cataphract
war elephant
armoured elephant
//
stone thrower
catapult
heavy catapult
ballista
helepolis
//
fishing boat
fishing ship
trade boat
merchant ship
light transport
heavy transport
scout ship
war galley
fire galley
trireme
catapult trireme
juggernaught
//
watch tower
sentry tower
guard tower
ballista tower
//

I just posted the list for reference, the only real unit that you didn't put down was the priest, which might be difficult to incorporate.

Also, I would like to see the towers used somehow, since those were really an important aspect of the strategic game.

Although there is not a very long unit list, you might end up using multiple slots for the same unit for different civilizations, since in AoE, each civilizations gets a set of special bonusesthat affect units, economy, et cetera.

By far the hardest part of an AoE mod would be the map: since one of the feature of the AoE series was that you got a different map virtually every time that you played, which was part of the interest. I think that the closest you could come would be randomizing starting province ownership - but how to do that?

[Al Khalifah]

The problem with this is that it is too generic. That could help, as MTW was generic in some aspects, like most Western European nations but even so MTW had a good smattering of unique units.

&

Although there is not a very long unit list, you might end up using multiple slots for the same unit for different civilizations, since in AoE, each civilizations gets a set of special bonusesthat affect units, economy, et cetera.

Each civilisation would have a unique unit or two (at first), which will be coined from the civilisation bonuses of that faction (possibly in line with the original ones from AoE). So for example, the Minoan faction's archers recieved a +2 range bonus (pretty long). To implement this, the Minoan faction would be able to train a special bowmen type - Cretean Archers for example. Similarly, the Romans would get a superior legion unit - Imperial Legion maybe, the Macedonians a superior Phalanx, the Persians superior archers, the Carthaginians superior elephants and so on.

Unique units might also be available to the different groups of factions in a mod. Their stats could differ, but I would definately want their unit models to differ. By faction groups I mean the Middle Eastern factions, Greek factions, Far Eastern factions, Latin factions, African factions.

Essentially, this mod would be much more in the spirit of Shogun: Total War, with a more limitted set of units, creating a more strategic battle situation, where it is not possible to win just by overwhelming the enemy with force of numbers, troop morale or stats.

]By far the hardest part of an AoE mod would be the map: since one of the feature of the AoE series was that you got a different map virtually every time that you played, which was part of the interest. I think that the closest you could come would be randomizing starting province ownership - but how to do that?

This is a very interesting idea that I hadn't considered. However, I think it would be very possible. While randomising the terrain of the map would be quite a large endevour, though not impossible, randomising the starting province ownership would be simple enough. A script could be run on the descr_strat file before starting a new campaign that would - within a set of rules and guidelines - distribute starting map territories to the factions randomly. So for example, your faction would be given a few territories placed together or near enough on the map and some starting untis - your faction wouldn't have Hibernia, Africa and Syria as starting provinces for example.

[Laridus Konivaich]

Would you keep all of the civilizations, or add new ones:

//
01) Ancient Choson
02) Assyrian
03) Babylonian
04) Carthiginian
05) Egyptian
06) Greek
07) Hittite
08) Macedonian
09) Minoan
10) Palymyran
11) Persian
12) Phoenician
13) Roman
14) Shang
15) Sumerian
16) Yamato
//

The thing is you need to find Three civilization to replace the oriental civilizations, since it is impractical to have a map that covers everything between europe and asia. If you replace, use barbarians: Britons, Germans, Gauls; Scythians/Sarmatians

//

Also, would you use a custom map or a map of Europe? If you choose a real-world map, I would go with mundus magnus, to accomodate the Babylonian, Persian, et cetera civilizations.

//

How close are you going to stay to AoE? Will all units be the same size, so that their strengths are more apparent? This would be the closest thing to the one unit at a time setup of AoE.

//

And buildings, there were not a huge number of buidings, but there were mass technologies that you researched. This could possibly be accomplished using each technology as a building that has no physical manifestation, but the buildings browser could get rather messy. The Problem with not including at least some of the technologies is that they are used heavy in recruitment conditionals.

//

Actually, make a province randomizing campaign if possible, but also have a 'historical' campaign which makes the map strategically interesting, for example, give Phonecia colonies in Carthage and Sicily, half way across that map from its capital.

//

Just a few more thoughts on the idea.

[Al Khalifah]

This is mod is all about the units in truth, therefore the first priority of this mod is the units and their balance with relation to one another. This is where I will put most of my focus early on. So using models and factions already in the game I will work on new units and their stats until the mod takes the desired feel in a custom battle. This will go on until at least the base units in each unit class (e.g foot archers) are performing to my satisfaction against one another.

How close are you going to stay to AoE? Will all units be the same size, so that their strengths are more apparent? This would be the closest thing to the one unit at a time setup of AoE.

Most normal unit sizes will be the same at first, unless I feel this is having an adverse affect on game balance. Some units will obviously have to be smaller in terms of size. As a guide for 100 infantry there would be 12 elephants. Archer units may be larger to give them more of an impact in battle.

Next priority would be factions and their balance in battle. I will try to keep the factions strengths and weaknesses as true to their Age Of Empires originals as possible. I'd take a cross-section (heavy infantry, archer attack, siege) of faction types at this point and work on them.

Would you keep all of the civilizations, or add new ones:

Most likely keep all of the civilisations, except maybe the Far Eastern ones. I'd really like to have them in there though, because they were always interesting in AoE. I'm not sure about this at the moment though.

At this point buildings and the map would then become a considerations, although this is where the mod gets fun so I will try to get there as soon as possible but not at the expense of quality.

Also, would you use a custom map or a map of Europe? If you choose a real-world map, I would go with mundus magnus, to accomodate the Babylonian, Persian, et cetera civilizations.

I'd move the map to the East and South and zoom in. This would give more of the Arabian peninsula and Persia and a bit more of Egypt. By zooming in, more provinces can be added in some of the more crowded areas of the map such as Greece and the Holy Land.

Actually, make a province randomizing campaign if possible, but also have a 'historical' campaign which makes the map strategically interesting, for example, give Phonecia colonies in Carthage and Sicily, half way across that map from its capital.

I'll try to keep the factions lands as close to the truth as possible in 'historical' campaigns, but remember that won't be entirely possible. With Carthage as a faction, the Phoenicians can't also have Carthage as a province and Sumer and Assyria's lands conflict heavily with the Persian Empire (possibly to due with Sumer disapearing as an Empire long before the Rise of Rome).

[richyg13]

I've already started on something extremly similar to this. heres the link to my site...

http://www.dhost.info/crazypaul2k4/row_dawnofwar/

I have been considering moving my mod to a fantasy world however but if theres an interest in keeping it going then ill finish it.

[Laridus Konivaich]

This is mod is all about the units in truth, therefore the first priority of this mod is the units and their balance with relation to one another. This is where I will put most of my focus early on. So using models and factions already in the game I will work on new units and their stats until the mod takes the desired feel in a custom battle. This will go on until at least the base units in each unit class (e.g foot archers) are performing to my satisfaction against one another.

Yes, a unit balance mod would be different compared to what most mods do. This concept really should not need very many new models, the main thing that you might want to do would be to get the elite archers to have longer bows.

Most normal unit sizes will be the same at first, unless I feel this is having an adverse affect on game balance. Some units will obviously have to be smaller in terms of size. As a guide for 100 infantry there would be 12 elephants. Archer units may be larger to give them more of an impact in battle.

I would say men to elephants should be 10:1, and maybe give elephants less HPs. I don't think archers need to have larger units - they should be the same size as infantry units. Also, what can be done with priests, since they are one of the more interesting units, especially in what they can do.

Next priority would be factions and their balance in battle. I will try to keep the factions strengths and weaknesses as true to their Age Of Empires originals as possible. I'd take a cross-section (heavy infantry, archer attack, siege) of faction types at this point and work on them.

Yes, this is also important, I am assuming that you have the game's reference materials, but in case you need any info, I have all of the originl manuals too.

Most likely keep all of the civilisations, except maybe the Far Eastern ones. I'd really like to have them in there though, because they were always interesting in AoE. I'm not sure about this at the moment though.

I'm not sure if any civilizations were particularly interesting in AoE, I mean, they all looked pretty much the same, except for their building styles. So maybe just remove the far eastern factions, and don't add any more, or if you do add more, constrain them to the areas that already have factions, so the map stays smaller.

At this point buildings and the map would then become a considerations, although this is where the mod gets fun so I will try to get there as soon as possible but not at the expense of quality.

I'd move the map to the East and South and zoom in. This would give more of the Arabian peninsula and Persia and a bit more of Egypt. By zooming in, more provinces can be added in some of the more crowded areas of the map such as Greece and the Holy Land.

Interesting - I actually would not zoom in on the map, but rather just add provinces, to make the areas more crowded - since it really wouldn't take that long to move around, and there never were huge distances between you and the enemy in AoE, as I recall. This would give the feeling of 'the world was smaller' idea, since everthing will be close together. Also, the map would be a much easier if you don't change the size.

I'll try to keep the factions lands as close to the truth as possible in 'historical' campaigns, but remember that won't be entirely possible. With Carthage as a faction, the Phoenicians can't also have Carthage as a province and Sumer and Assyria's lands conflict heavily with the Persian Empire (possibly to due with Sumer disapearing as an Empire long before the Rise of Rome).

Yes, there will be quite a bit of conflict for lands, since the civilizations existed in the same areas at different times. After thinking about it more, factions that might replace the far-eastern factions: etruscans; dorians (depending on how far north the map goes);

//

Also, richyg13: I don't see how you mod is similar to this. Maybe I'm just missing something... could you say why you think that they are similar? That would help me to understand.

[richyg13]

The similarity is the same technology tree idea... where everyone has the same units they can produce in all factions. The only thing majorly different is in my mod each nation has only 1 starting province.

[Myrddraal]

Moved

[Laridus Konivaich]

One starting province each actually might make sense for and AOE game - since you always started with just a town center...

The map that you want is the one from Successors: Total War - it covers about the area that you would want.

Unless this idea,like many others, died?

[Al Khalifah]

Not dead. I'm just working on it, the post I made in the general section was the first real consideration this mod was given, so I have been unable to open with a bang and say "Hey look at all these cool screenshots I took of my mod." I am working on a more complete description of the mod in general to go in the post at the top of the page though, hopefully with pretty pictures and everything. I'm also monitoring the thread to answer any questions that get asked.

The map that you want is the one from Successors: Total War - it covers about the area that you would want.

That would require their permission first. With all the mud that's been flying around the org of late about people stealing maps, I don't think I'' be doing that. I will bear it in mind though. If not, a zoomed in Mundus Magna map might work too. The real places that need more cities are Greece and Mesopatamia.

One starting province each actually might make sense for and AOE game - since you always started with just a town center...

It might do, but I still want to give the factions some regional bases and set up some starting conflicts. The three Greek nations can fight for supremacy of Greece or the Carthaginians will be poised to strike Rome. There will also be quite a blast in Arabia as the Sumerians, Assyrians, Persians and Babylonians will all be fighting over the same crowded land (I love the crazy time frame). It will be total war in the Middle East that's for sure. Some factions may have more starting land, but their territory might not be so well developed or they may have developed cities that are not connected (e.g Phoenicians)

[Laridus Konivaich]

That would require their permission first. With all the mud that's been flying around the org of late about people stealing maps, I don't think I'' be doing that. I will bear it in mind though. If not, a zoomed in Mundus Magna map might work too. The real places that need more cities are Greece and Mesopatamia.

It might do, but I still want to give the factions some regional bases and set up some starting conflicts. The three Greek nations can fight for supremacy of Greece or the Carthaginians will be poised to strike Rome. There will also be quite a blast in Arabia as the Sumerians, Assyrians, Persians and Babylonians will all be fighting over the same crowded land (I love the crazy time frame). It will be total war in the Middle East that's for sure. Some factions may have more starting land, but their territory might not be so well developed or they may have developed cities that are not connected (e.g Phoenicians)

I of course didn't meant that you should just take people's work - I would NEVER consider something like that. I jsut menat that their map has seems to have the area that you want, and it would really help this mod if it could find a map, and focus all of its development on gameplay/balance.

The starting regions gets back to how closely it follows the concepts of AOE. It just struck me when I was replying there, that you only started with a town center, which made expansionism important - otherwise you didn't get any resources. (BTW: how was it that all the good gold mines were near the AI's towns anyway? )

That brings me too another idea: can other resources be made eshaustible, the way slaves are in RTW? That would be very good for modeling antother aspect of AOE.

And for the battlefield, make it so that all units get a 'never routs' trait, that will make the game just like aoe - your army either came out, or it died, none of this silly routing and fighting again in the next battle!

[Al Khalifah]

That brings me too another idea: can other resources be made eshaustible, the way slaves are in RTW? That would be very good for modeling antother aspect of AOE.

I am almost certain they can be made so, how the game would handle this, I'm not entirely sure. This might make the end game a little tedious though, if one Empire has failed to establish sufficient hegemony in the period where there are resources to finish off its enemies without them. I intend to make regions with trade resources more valuable in this mod, especially gold and silver.

On the subject of regions, I'm also contemplating the idea of having some region specific units like there were in M:TW. I always liked those. An example would be the holder of Laconia can recruit Spartan Hoplites - equivalent to standard Hoplites but obviously with better morale and attack strength.

[Al Khalifah]

This is a first draft of the tech tree to be used by factions in the mod. It's very much a cross between the Age Of Empires units and buildings and the Shogun style of a relatively flat tech tree. The good thing about flatter tech trees is that they get the better units out earlier on so that it doesn't take too long to get some interesting units. Also the AI never seems to be able to build up his empire as fast as the player can and so you tend to get the 'swarm of peasants' effect, where as if the AIs options are simplified he can get the better units too. The 'gold' units will still require quite a bit of investment to acquire however.

Some of the buildings deserve much better names and this is only the military side of things. I have some different ideas about economic buildings and some rather unique ideas about technology buildings to come later.
These units are ready and being balanced. Other standard units that will probably make an appearance later are: Skirmishers, Palace Guard, Priests, Axemen.


TECH TREE:
All unit construction subject to the faction being able to train them.

Town Centre #
- Villagers : simple organised resistance armed with spears. Very weak defense. Very weak attack.

Town Barracks #
- Hoplites : fight in close formation with short spears and shields. Amoured and disciplined. Recieve a bonus when fighting cavalry. Weak attack. Good defense.
- Short Swordsmen : fight in loose formation with short swords and small shields. Average attack. Average defense.
City Barracks ##
- Broad Swordsmen : fight in close formation with short swords and shields. Armoured. Average attack. Good defense.
Famous Barracks ###
- Long Swordsmen : fight in loose formation with long swords. Do not carry shields. Armoured, but indisciplined. Strong attack. Weak defense.
- Legion : fight in close formation with short swords and tower shields. Well Armoured. Good attack. Strong defense.

Drill Ground - requires Town Barracks ##
- Phalanx : fight in phalanx formation with pikes. Armoured and disciplined. Recieve a large bonus when fighting cavalry. Average attack. Good defense, but vulnerable to sustained missile fire. Vulernable when flanked.
Military Accademy ####
- Centurions : fight in phalanx formation with pikes and shields. Well armoured and disciplined. Recieve a large bonus when fighting cavalry. Average attack. Strong defense. Vulnerable when flanked.

Archery Field #
- Bowmen : armed with bows. Very weak melee. Medium range with small damage.
- Slingers : armed with hand slings. Very weak melee. Short range with high damage.
Archery School ##
- Improved Bowmen : armed with long bows. Very weak melee. Long range with medium damage.
- Horse Archers : armed with short bows and small swords. Weak in melee. Medium range with small damage.
- Chariot Archers : armed with bows. Weak melee. Medium range with small damage. Very fast. Armoured riders.
Famous Archery School ####
- Composite Bowmen : armed with composite bows and armor piercing arrows. Very weak melee. Long range with high damage. Bonus against armoured units.
- Elephant Archers : armed with bows. Medium range with small damage. Frighten cavalry and infantry. May run amok.
- Heavy Horse Archers : armed with composite bows and short swords. Medium range with medium damage. Armoured riders.

Horse Farmer ##
- Scout Cavalry : armed with spears. Very fast. Very weak attack. Very weak defense.
Cavalry Stables ###
- Elephants : elephant attack damage. Devastating attack. Good defense. May run amok. Causes fear in horses.
- Chariots : armed with spears and chariot charge damage. Very strong charge attack but weak in sustained melee. Riders armoured. Good defense. Impetuous.
- Cavalry : armed with limitted throwing spears and short melee spears. Average charge attack but weak in sustained melee. Weak defense.
- Heavy Cavalry : armed with swords and shields. Strong charge attack and effective if not excellent in sustained melee. Riders armoured, horses lightly armoured. Good defense. Impetuous.
- Camel Riders : armed with swords. Good charge and effective in melee if not excellent in sustained melee. Riders armoured. Average defense. Causes fear in horses.
Legendary Stables ####
- Cataphracts : armed with lances and swords. Very strong charge attack. Prone to becoming tired in heat. Riders and horses well armoured. Very strong defense. Impetuous.
- Armoured Elephants : elephant attack damage. Devastating attack. Very strong defense. May run amok. Causes fear in horses.
- Scythed Chariots : armed with spears and chariot charge damage. Very strong charge attack but weak in sustained melee. Devastating against cavalry and unformed infantry. Riders armoured. Good defense. Impetuous.

Workshop ##
- Ballista : medium range, slower reload rate. Armour is not effective against a ballista missile.
- Stone Thrower : long range, very slow reload rate. Armour is not effective against a stone. Causes area damage.
Siege Engineers ###
- Catapult : very long range, very slow reload rate. Armour is not effective against a stone. Causes area damage.
Massive Siege Engineers ####
- Heavy Catapult : very long range, very slow reload rate. Armour is not effective against a stone. Causes massive area damage. Stones can be ignited.
- Heliopolis : medium range, fast reload rate. Armour is not effective against a ballista missile. The Heliopolis is a rapid fire weapon. Will run out of ammunition quickly if used in sustained bursts.

Dock #
- War Galley : weak naval vessel. Short build time.
Naval Yard ##
- Triereme : medium naval vessel. Short build time.
- Catapult Treireme : strong naval vessel. Medium build time.
Famous Naval Yard ###
- Fire Galley : strong naval vessel. Medium build time.
- Juggernaught : very strong naval vessel. Long build time.

# Short Build Time
## Medium Build Time
### Longer Build Time
#### Big Build Time