"Axe" attribute for Legionnaires

**GoreBag** · 05-18-2005, 04:24

Originally Posted by jerby

I was guestimating before, but this is just plain old guessing adn assuming

Assumptions based on facts. Maybe we should have a test?

**jerby** · 05-18-2005, 15:08

well, sorry for not elaborating. but i thoughyt the "anyone gutsy enough to charge a pilum-wall will find it paying off" was a wild guess.
was there a test? or shoudl I bring teh horse and wil you fix up a pila-wall :D ^^

btw, thnx for not taking my post offensively. i dont speek english well enough to give emotion to my words. and sometimes i might offend people were i didn't want to

**GoreBag** · 05-18-2005, 15:38

Originally Posted by jerby

well, sorry for not elaborating. but i thoughyt the "anyone gutsy enough to charge a pilum-wall will find it paying off" was a wild guess.
was there a test? or shoudl I bring teh horse and wil you fix up a pila-wall :D ^^

btw, thnx for not taking my post offensively. i dont speek english well enough to give emotion to my words. and sometimes i might offend people were i didn't want to

Möchtest du deutsch sprechen? Peut-être en francais?

I apologise that I don't speak Dutch; it's my fault as much as yours.

I guess the only to really find out to have a simulation of some kind.

**cunctator** · 05-18-2005, 18:34

Quote from Arrians array against the alans:
http://members.tripod.com/~S_van_Dor...s/ektaxis.html

And the front four ranks of the formation must be of spearmen, whose spearpoints end in thin iron shanks. And the foremost of them should hold them at the ready, in order that when the enemies near them, they can thrust the ironpoints of the spears at the breast of the horses in particular. Those standing in second, third an fourth rank of the formation must hold their spears ready for thrusting if possible, wounding the horses and killing the horsemen and put the rider out of action with the spear stuck in their heavy body armour and the iron point bent because of the softness.

I think this means that pilum equipped legionaires were capable to succesfully stop a heavy cavalry charge, even if the lines clash into eachother.

**Sarcasm** · 05-19-2005, 00:30

*The Pilums

There are 3 main types used by the roman army. A socketed one (light) and 2 variations of the same design. One with the soft head (difficult to produce soft iron that can repeatedly be repaired) and the other with a wodden peg that broke the javelin hit something and made the weapon useless (supposedely invented by Marius).

*Pointy Sticks

I'ts not just the "pointy sticks" that work as a deterrant for cavalry. Infantry in close ranks is effectively a wall that *most* cavalry will shy away in the final moments of the charge. The main force of the cavalry was the ability to hit the flanks and rear of the enemy line or cause it to break ranks and allow it to exploit the gaps. Dromikaites is absolutely right.

The epitome of the heavy shock cavalry, the central-European fully armoured knight in a gigantic horse was an impressive sight indeed, but ultimately defeatable by a determined and disciplined army.

The best source we have about serious cavalry warfare (and how it actually fared) is when it was declining in importance (XVII and XVIII wars). Infantry squares in the Napoleonic wars were all but impervious to cavalry, and all they had was a stick with a pointy thing glued to the barrel. Cavalry would charge the squares and forced to switch to carbines and circle almost harmelessly around the individual squares, if the infantry held firm.

**Dictator Sulla** · 05-19-2005, 12:05

People tend to forget the real strength of roman arms, being adaptative!

Against Pompeys superior numbers in cavalry, Caeser ordered that his right flank be equiped with siege spears. They fought as a sort of phalanx for a while.

Also, horses generaly won't charge a compact mass of men, be they armed with spears, which in their minds won't probably mean a thing, or swords. What they're afraid of is obstacles. It takes a good rider and a well trained horse to jump "simple" obstacles in sports events, let alone a mass of screaming humans!

Witness for instance the campaigns of Lucullus Vs the Armenians, when 2 legions worth of troops (though very good and veteran ones) took out a large force or armenian cataphracts, because the armenians simply cahrged straight in.